American's view on Islam

[sarahaziz 0]

My husband wants to shake ur hand or something for knocking that sense into me that polygamy is not a right but its permitted if a man wants to challenge God or back in the day when woman needed help

[amrssnowangel 0]

Oh yeah... now you are calling ISLAM "hislam"? Frankly, you are neither an Islamic scholar nor do you represent the views of the majority of muslims in the world today.

"disbelievers in the Oneness of Allah and in His messanger Prophet Muhammad SAW" also falls under the definition and Christian and Jewish men fall under this whether you like it or not. Muslimas CANNOT marry non muslims and if you believe this to be true , you are in the minority of most muslim believers including the muslim spouses of the women on this board I can assure you. I can absolutely assure you that you will not find any reputable scholar anywhere in MENA that will tell you that its perfectly ok for muslimas to marry outside of ISLAM. If the non muslim loves the muslima, he can revert to ISLAM. Everything you are saying is absolute hogwash and you are reinventing ISLAM to fit your ideas and behavior. I absolutely stand behind the statement that MUSLIMAS CANNOT MARRY A NON MUSLIM MAN. Period.

If you did so and he did not revert, that is most likely because you did not grow up or live in a MENA country. No way on Allah's green earth would that fly in Egypt or Algeria. If a non muslim wants to marry a muslima, he reverts, period. There are no exceptions. Period. If you did that with a non muslim, its because you lived in the USA .

Being from MENA does not automatically catapult one to Islamic scholar status. I never bought it, never will.

Love is so much more than what your religion is.

Ask a scholar in MENA about marriage and they will tell you that it is prohibited between non-Muslim men and Muslim women. Ask Muslim scholars in the West and I bet you there is at least one who does not think like everyone does. Ask different scholars from MENA about any dozens of topics and you will find differences across the board. Islam is a religion where people are supposed to think and interpret to the best of their ability. Far be it for me, a smart, inteligent, educated woman to let someone tell me what I can and cannot do in my religion. I am capable of reading and interpreting on my own. I don't need someone to tell me how to do my job or how to solve my everyday problems. Religion should be the same.

How many verses in the Quran are cited to help men, in MENA and around the world, to institute some of the oppressive behavior that they subject their women to? How about the stupid @$$ laws they have in Saudi (especially about women not driving)? It is just asinine. Some of it is culture, but a lot is also how they twist and turn the religion so that the men can have their way.

Like the "scholars" I too am falable. No one is perfect. If I do something that is against Islam I am more than willing to talk about it and learn. Show me a verse from the Quran, that is all I need. Believing that Muslim women can only marry Muslim men is all fine and dandy, but if you are trying to convince people who feel differently otherwise, I think you need something more concrete than the scholars and what they say. Some of us don't buy THEIR hogwash.

The Quran does not state that a muslimah may not marry a non muslim. It is not stated. Scholars state this as a fact because it is not specifically stated as allowed...but DOES state that a muslim man may marry a non muslim believing woman. The basis for this is that the husband is the head and the wife is the submissive one. A non muslim man, would therefore have charge and could ask his wife to not practice Islam. He could also demand that the children not be raised muslim. Since a muslimah knows that she is to be obedient...(and this depends on the kindness of the husband and his regards to true Islam) she would be against Allah to disobey. It would put her in a very bad situation. As she is to raise her kids Muslim, she is to practice Islam, yet he as the leader is also to be obeyed. It would cause more marital strife.

Aside from that.....which not all will agree with..... since it is NOT specifically stated...it is viewed that if there is any doubts about the action being within Allahs ways...then it is to be avoided. So therefore, yes its more custom than mandated by the quran. However, when one sees all the issues that surround it..one can see the logic in it. BUT...it is up to each individual to make their way and peace with Allah. Its an individual decision as far as Im concerned and should not be governed by custom.

[SaadBell 0]

Virtual wife

I like the way you handle your self and know your facts well. well done

[Ban Hammer 13,491]

[amrssnowangel 0]

My husband wants to shake ur hand or something for knocking that sense into me that polygamy is not a right but its permitted if a man wants to challenge God or back in the day when woman needed help

WAYYYYYYYY back...women did not work...under any circumstances. Even today..in some places..this holds true. If the womans husband died...how was she to live? How were her kids to survive? Even in the bible...if the man died and had no sons with his wife, his brother was to marry her and give her that son...the brother was ONLY let off of that responsibility IF the wife declined. In many countries, the women fall under the care of the husband, oldest brother or father...but never of herself. If non of these relatives exsist, who takes care of her? Maybe an older neighbor? But for her to have any legal rights...he has to marry her....but in todays ways..no man can afford to have more than one...and its wrong to suggest he can. Its wrong to take more wives if he can not treat them fairly and evenly. That means equal time, equal money, equal housing...how many can do that today? If they can not maintain this..then they are to stay to ONE wife...if they marry more and can not sustain this..in Allahs eyes they are wrong...Allah prefers one wife to one husband...

Same with divorce..while its permitted...it is the one permission Allah gives that he hates the most....

Christianity and Islam and Judeism...are very close in these beliefs...

[sarahaziz 0]

VERY CLOSE. Judaism,Islam, Christianity all follow 10 Commandments and Christianity departs with the New Testament which "relieves" most of the old rules/laws with Jesus. The topic took a cool toll I would never convert but it was really educating.

[jpaula 20]

Sarah,

It seems to me that, as a child of parents of different religions, you have personal experience with this as well. Do you talk to your parents about it? I wonder if the issue is more polarizing today than it was a generation ago?

[Beauty for Ashes 257]

A time out? You hit the nail on the head, sis.

Oh yeah... now you are calling ISLAM "hislam"? Frankly, you are neither an Islamic scholar nor do you represent the views of the majority of muslims in the world today.

Wahrania, I said that there is Islam and there is Hislam. That is a true statement. You know very little about me, but whether I am a scholar or not is irrelevent to the discussion. Besides, you're having a hard time keeping up as it is. I also doubt either of us know for certain what 1.3 billion Muslims all believe.

"disbelievers in the Oneness of Allah and in His messanger Prophet Muhammad SAW" also falls under the definition and Christian and Jewish men fall under this whether you like it or not. Muslimas CANNOT marry non muslims and if you believe this to be true , you are in the minority of most muslim believers including the muslim spouses of the women on this board I can assure you. I can absolutely assure you that you will not find any reputable scholar anywhere in MENA that will tell you that its perfectly ok for muslimas to marry outside of ISLAM. If the non muslim loves the muslima, he can revert to ISLAM. Everything you are saying is absolute hogwash and you are reinventing ISLAM to fit your ideas and behavior. I absolutely stand behind the statement that MUSLIMAS CANNOT MARRY A NON MUSLIM MAN. Period.

If that is so, then disbelievers in the Oneness of Allah and in His messanger Prophet Muhammad SAW" also falls under the definition and Christian and Jewish WOMEN fall under this whether you like it or not. As my boss, a scholar with ijaza, likes to say, if non-Muslim men have cooties, than so do non-Muslim women.

The number of reputable scholars who are reexamining this issue is growing, and the absolutism surrounding it is beginning to wane. The former Chief Justice of the Egyptian Supreme Court denounced it, and Imam Yusef al-Qaradawi, an esteemed MENA scholar, has reneged on the idea that a married Muslima convert must dump her non-Muslim husband. The tide is turning because there is little to support a ban other than Arab chauvinism.

If you did so and he did not revert, that is most likely because you did not grow up or live in a MENA country. No way on Allah's green earth would that fly in Egypt or Algeria. If a non muslim wants to marry a muslima, he reverts, period. There are no exceptions. Period. If you did that with a non muslim, its because you lived in the USA .

Ok, so once again you revert to the "you're not an authentic MENA Muslim" tactic again. I not only grew up in MENA under the Maliki madhab, my family grew up in MENA. I studied Islam in MENA, married my husband in MENA, and own a home in MENA. Do you think all MENA Muslims are cookie cutter believers, hanging on the word of mortals for their salvation, because you do? That would foolish.

You have stubbornly refused to directly address any historical fact or point of law I have patiently offered to you. I'm not going to humor your red herrings. It is overly clear that you have no real response to my challenge of your views than to attack my personal history and credibilty in ways that have no bearing on the debate. I don't believe you have any idea what I have even offered in rebuttal. You are like a deer caught in the headlights, repeating the same tired lines over and over. Your experience and your male scholars have failed you; maybe you should look to God instead.

I am not hear to debate you nor try to refute your points. Your opinions do not represent the majority of Muslims. I am not a deer in the headlights. I do not try to reinvent religion to suit my lifestyle choices. You did not grow up in Mena and yes it matters. No way would any lets say Algerian girl be supported in Algeria marrying a kuffar. Your american upbringing gave you alot more liberty to choose the things you wanted to do

[Beauty for Ashes 257]

You are missing the logic of GEG's argument. The fact that it may or may not be permissible in Egypt, Algeria or Mars is beside the point if you accept the distinction she has made (and argued quite well) between the laws of Allah and those of men. Nowhere has she said that it is allowed by any government (laws of men--would say women as well, but tis not usually the case) although I am less convinced than you are that it is a legal impossibility in MENA. But, assuming for the sake of argument that it is not permitted anywhere in the Arab world, this does not contradict what she is saying. It leaves open the possibility that those man-made laws are misguided, the result of a rather sexist interpretation.

Full disclosure: I have a personal bias here as a Jewish woman married to a Muslim man. We have been supported by both of our families and our friends and have found our own path through it. Five years in and we are comfortable and secure in our marriage. It is a personal thing, how any couple deals with these issues, what compromises we make and how we negotiate those, how outside opinion affects you, etc. The only flack we get is from converts (I don't buy the revert semantics) quoting "scholars." The internet has only added to the problem, spreading cyber fatwa and sprouting experts. I value GEG's input to these discussions as she is one of the few people I know of on these boards who argues for herself from a knowledgeable point of view. I do not know enough about Islam to know if she is technically right or wrong, but she puts forth convincing arguments, presents the points against her own case and then wheighs the two sides. I admire the logic and the thought process.

Now, where the norms ie the cultural or legal implications as opposed to the religious ones of marrying outside of your religion are relevant is in regards to the OP's question. The fact that such marriages are rare in most cultures (much of America included) does mean that it is something we all have to face in our marriages. But, how much of a challenge this is varies alot as it usually comes down to individual and family dynamics. I don't think they are issues to be swept under the rug. If there are things that worry you about your partner's beliefs or if there is real family strain, they have to be taken seriously. But, to worry because of what Islam says instead of what your husband himself believes is creating problems where there are none. As polygamy is the most obvious and oft-touted example (if one more person asks me if my husband can have four wives...), it matters little that it is allowed in certain circumstances in the Quaran. What does matter is that it is something you and your fiance have discussed and agree on. Your husband to be need not answer for all of Islam.

I am very curious about your experiences in Algeria as a jew. Literally,if someone christian has prayer meetings, anyone who attends can and has been prosecuted as well as bibles confiscated if they are muslims. The worst thing that you can be accused of by some people is being called jewish. Did you experience any anti semitism or were you under surveillance in Algeria or did you find people curious and pleasant?

[Beauty for Ashes 257]

You are missing the logic of GEG's argument. The fact that it may or may not be permissible in Egypt, Algeria or Mars is beside the point if you accept the distinction she has made (and argued quite well) between the laws of Allah and those of men. Nowhere has she said that it is allowed by any government (laws of men--would say women as well, but tis not usually the case) although I am less convinced than you are that it is a legal impossibility in MENA. But, assuming for the sake of argument that it is not permitted anywhere in the Arab world, this does not contradict what she is saying. It leaves open the possibility that those man-made laws are misguided, the result of a rather sexist interpretation.

Full disclosure: I have a personal bias here as a Jewish woman married to a Muslim man. We have been supported by both of our families and our friends and have found our own path through it. Five years in and we are comfortable and secure in our marriage. It is a personal thing, how any couple deals with these issues, what compromises we make and how we negotiate those, how outside opinion affects you, etc. The only flack we get is from converts (I don't buy the revert semantics) quoting "scholars." The internet has only added to the problem, spreading cyber fatwa and sprouting experts. I value GEG's input to these discussions as she is one of the few people I know of on these boards who argues for herself from a knowledgeable point of view. I do not know enough about Islam to know if she is technically right or wrong, but she puts forth convincing arguments, presents the points against her own case and then wheighs the two sides. I admire the logic and the thought process.

Now, where the norms ie the cultural or legal implications as opposed to the religious ones of marrying outside of your religion are relevant is in regards to the OP's question. The fact that such marriages are rare in most cultures (much of America included) does mean that it is something we all have to face in our marriages. But, how much of a challenge this is varies alot as it usually comes down to individual and family dynamics. I don't think they are issues to be swept under the rug. If there are things that worry you about your partner's beliefs or if there is real family strain, they have to be taken seriously. But, to worry because of what Islam says instead of what your husband himself believes is creating problems where there are none. As polygamy is the most obvious and oft-touted example (if one more person asks me if my husband can have four wives...), it matters little that it is allowed in certain circumstances in the Quaran. What does matter is that it is something you and your fiance have discussed and agree on. Your husband to be need not answer for all of Islam.

it is absolutely permitted for a muslim to marry a jewish woman.. It is permitted in Islam. If someone is a true muslim they know that.Now, are you going to have children? Thats when things get dicey. I doubt anyone would be very excited about his children being raised jewish but you told me I think that he has very little family. Family has a big influence on everything

[Sofiyya 1,687]

My husband wants to shake ur hand or something for knocking that sense into me that polygamy is not a right but its permitted if a man wants to challenge God or back in the day when woman needed help

WAYYYYYYYY back...women did not work...under any circumstances. Even today..in some places..this holds true. If the womans husband died...how was she to live? How were her kids to survive? Even in the bible...if the man died and had no sons with his wife, his brother was to marry her and give her that son...the brother was ONLY let off of that responsibility IF the wife declined. In many countries, the women fall under the care of the husband, oldest brother or father...but never of herself. If non of these relatives exsist, who takes care of her? Maybe an older neighbor? But for her to have any legal rights...he has to marry her....but in todays ways..no man can afford to have more than one...and its wrong to suggest he can. Its wrong to take more wives if he can not treat them fairly and evenly. That means equal time, equal money, equal housing...how many can do that today? If they can not maintain this..then they are to stay to ONE wife...if they marry more and can not sustain this..in Allahs eyes they are wrong...Allah prefers one wife to one husband...

Same with divorce..while its permitted...it is the one permission Allah gives that he hates the most....

Christianity and Islam and Judeism...are very close in these beliefs...

My regards to your husband, sara. Polygamy is a mortal challange rather than a man's right; that is a great way to describe it.

As Muslims, our first example for best practice is our Nabi. He had one wife for the majority of his life in a time when it de rigour for a man of substance to have more than one. In my life, I have taken his example and that of Khadijah's as guideposts along the way.

Khadijah was a rich, widowed business woman, no submissive shrinking violet, this one.

She was Muhammad's employer and the financier of his mission as a prophet.

She was about 15 years older than he was and had a high status in the tribe, which, as his guardian, she passed onto her orphaned husband.

It took nine women to replace her in his life.

Apparently, Muhammad was attracted to strong-minded women, as there is an entire surah devoted to admonishing him for letting them run over him, and threatening them with replacement.

His subsequent wives were a varied lot; among them, some business owners, an ahadith narrator, a wartime strategizer, a keeper of the masjid. Muhammad was not partial to women without substance. He approached them as consults, lead them into battle as warriors, requested that they reveal to him what they needed in life to reach their own dreams. This story is on of my favorites,

Lead by one of his wives, a group of women asked the Prophet why so many of the revelations were addressed to men. What is it that the women were to do to please God. The answer came in this passage:

For Muslim men and women,- for believing men and women, for devout men and women, for true men and women, for men and women who are patient and constant, for men and women who humble themselves, for men and women who give in Charity, for men a nd women who fast (and deny themselves), for men and women who guard their chastity, and for men and women who engage much in God's praise,- for them has God prepared forgiveness and great reward. Q 33:35

Allah has not mandated domination from men, nor submission to men from women. He has mandated the same obligations to Him for both of us. In the history of Islam we find numerous examples of females who were given enormous challenges and faced them with grace and fortitude. Mary, unwed and with child who raised an enemy of the state. Khadijah discovered that her humble husband has been called to serve God, but will be opposed as a heretic.

The image of Muslim women as subserviant and in need of protection from men is belied time and time again by the women who stood by the men in religious history. The calling of their men put them in direct danger; had they adhered to th stereotype, they would be forgotten.

For those women who needed protection, Allah has given direction to men on how to provide it. But, He did not direct Muslims to view women as a gender as weak, dependent and in need of protection. That is the doing of men who were loathe to relinquish their supremacy in the home to become true partners with their wives. That is cultural, not Islamic.

[Nasturtium 500]

VERY CLOSE. Judaism,Islam, Christianity all follow 10 Commandments and Christianity departs with the New Testament which "relieves" most of the old rules/laws with Jesus. The topic took a cool toll I would never convert but it was really educating.

I know it's OT but I wanted to say not all Christians believe this since there is no evidence for relieving us from the 613 commandments in the OT. All NT people and Yeshua still state to follow the Torah. It's the church in its traditions that decided we don't have to do this anymore. Also, Christians who decided we don't actually need to follow the law of G-d who say they follow the 10 commandments are usually not quite telling the truth since most if not all decide we don't need to "remember the Sabbath and keep it holy."

[Sofiyya 1,687]

I am not hear to debate you nor try to refute your points. Your opinions do not represent the majority of Muslims. I am not a deer in the headlights. I do not try to reinvent religion to suit my lifestyle choices. You did not grow up in Mena and yes it matters. No way would any lets say Algerian girl be supported in Algeria marrying a kuffar. Your american upbringing gave you alot more liberty to choose the things you wanted to do

It's ok, wahrania. I have come to the understanding that you are, as ipaula put it, a convert quoting scholars. That you can merely parrot what you have been told is no surprise. However, I did expect that after claiming expertise, taking an absolutionist position, launching personal attacks at me, and calling me a liar, that the least you could do is provide the audience the courtesy of a coherent and consistant explanation as to why you believe what you believe.

Instead, I can tell that you understood nothing I wrote, I can tell that you understand nothing you wrote. You are capable of little more than prideful dismissals based on a fantasy of experience that a trip or two to Algeria cannot validate.

In other words, PWMED

Thank you to all who have offered kind words and/or enjoyed my postings. I enjoy civil exchanges very much!

Edited March 1, 2008 by Virtual wife

[Caladan 19]

Goodness, guys. I'm not sure how anyone is disagreeing with Virtual Wife here. There is what the religion says you need to do to be in good with God, and there are ways that has been interpreted or misinterpreted by the culture in which the religion is embedded. An example from my own tradition: the Day of the Dead mixed with Catholicism in Latin American countries. Not an official church holiday. But it sure looks like one from the outside.

This is why religions have scholars, to sort out what is practiced out of local custom from what is required.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

This is why religions have scholars, to sort out what is practiced out of local custom from what is required.

Unfortunately for Muslims, we have developed a dependency on our scholars that allows them to become dictators. Merely questioning an interpretation makes some Muslims go appaplectic, but those are not the ones qualified to lead anyway.