The Gun Control Debate

[Scott & Lai 12]

Post 329 on this thread. If you read the whole thing it explains the rationale based on christ's teachings. However, I agree with those who said this thread could derail very quickly into a religious debate. You are, I am sure, perfectly aware that there are many, many christians who do believe quite literally that to defend themselves with physical violence does go against what they believe christ taught.

And if those Christians then used a gun in self-defense, they would be hypocritical. But I'm sure you are also aware that many many Christians do not agree with that interpretation, so when they use guns for self-defense, they are not being hypocritical, but are being consistent with their beliefs. And I don't believe that the referenced passages are Christ teaching against self-defense, but against personal vengance. He commanded the disciples to get swords before going to Gethsemene for their own protection. What he condemns Peter for is not self-defense, but using arms to defend Jesus, i.e., holy war to advance the Gospel. Jesus did not come to be a revolutionary intent on overthrowing Rome, he came to die for the sins of the world.

[Peikko 1,575]

Again, your interpretation may be as valid but then we could into the whole debate as to why I think christianity as a religion is hypocritical so we definitely don't want to go there.

[Peikko 1,575]

I think I alrady stated that my original post was in response to an earlier post and not just a 'red herring' of brining religion into the debate.

[Ban Hammer 13,136]

Post 329 on this thread. If you read the whole thing it explains the rationale based on christ's teachings. However, I agree with those who said this thread could derail very quickly into a religious debate. You are, I am sure, perfectly aware that there are many, many christians who do believe quite literally that to defend themselves with physical violence does go against what they believe christ taught.

oh joy now gun owners are potential killers too!

Well, clearly that is true. Anyone who has a gun has the potential to kill someone. There isn't really any getting around that. However, if you are suggesting that I believe that all gun owners are going to become manic murderers then you have completely misunderstood what I stated.

omg! you actually learned how to quote!

CONGRATULATIONS!!!

so i've also got the potential to be a drunk driver too, because i have a car

[Peikko 1,575]

I think you need some Venn diagrams Charles in order to understand the concept. However, the point, which seems to elude you, is that to believe all mass gun killers are people that are living on the edge of society and acquire guns illegally and have no education in guns is quite simply a false notion.

[garya505 2]

Yes, I am sure you are right.

After doing a little search on profiles of some gun killers who fit the random killing spree profile, it turns out that not just a few have not only had the proper documentation to own a gun but also have previously belonged to gun clubs and been universally perceived as responsible gun owners. While education is always a good thing it would appear that it doesn't really ensure that you won't turn the gun onto your fellow humans for no apparant reason.

What exactly does "not just a few" mean? Where did you get that info, from moveon.org ?

[Ban Hammer 13,136]

I think you need some Venn diagrams Charles in order to understand the concept. However, the point, which seems to elude you, is that to believe all mass gun killers are people that are living on the edge of society and acquire guns illegally and have no education in guns is quite simply a false notion.

oh that's the way many of you gun grabbers like to portray us.

[Peikko 1,575]

Ah, we have put the 'i'll twist your words to suit myself' glasses on have we?

[garya505 2]

I can see this thread is about to tank, so I'll add one more thing. Each incident such as the NIU murders brings forth the outrage of the anti-gun crowd. According to NHTSA, we had 15,121 deaths due to drunken driving in 2006. This is an average of 41 HOMICIDES PER DAY commited by drunken drivers. Where's the outrage?

Plenty of outrage for that out there too, Gary. Because of it, we've all seen loads of changes in our communities - stiffer enforcement; permanent loss of license for repeat offenders; real jail time for third offense drivers.

Times change. Drunk driving changed. Gun production has changed. Things have to change with the times to provide for public safety.

How we solve it - I don't know. I'm not that smart. I have my opinions, but they are just that.

By the way - that pic of your boy in the new hat is cuter than a bug's ear.

imo - education. i and a few others in this thread learned not to mess with firearms at an early age, to respect them. perhaps we need mandatory gun training nationwide.

I think that might be a good idea. I was in a gun shop once and overheard a woman talking to the sales guy about what to buy. He suggested one model, saying that it would be easy to shoot well. The woman's reply? "Oh, I'm not going to shoot it, I just want it for protection". #######?

[Ban Hammer 13,136]

Ah, we have put the 'i'll twist your words to suit myself' glasses on have we?

might be helpful as that would require removal of your blinders.

[rebeccajo 14]

It'd probably be a good idea if the legal sale of firearms were limited to REAL gun shops. Not pawn shops and certainly not discount stores.

Silly mommy who thinks she might need the gun she never plans to fire might never get the idea if she didn't casually pass through the hunting section in WalMart and spot the rifles.

Ah, we have put the 'i'll twist your words to suit myself' glasses on have we?

might be helpful as that would require removal of your blinders.

Charles..............

[Sister Fracas 5]

I want to know where are all the responsible gun owners to take out a crazed psycho when something happens? Seems that is always the argument, that they will be ready to protect themselves and others, yet it's only the odd "granny shoots intruder" story tht you hear about. So where are all of the gun owners ready to protect us all...

Hee, most of these crazed killers attack at places where guns are banned. And if a responsible gun owner were there, he probably would not be carrying a firearm. If he is carrying a firearm he would not be a law abiding responsible gun owner.

Big misconception. It is not the responsibility of “responsible” gun owners to protect “Us All”. A responsible gun owner does not own a gun to protect the masses. Mostly, a responsible gun owner is one who accepts the responsibility of protecting himself/herself and his/her family when they are near.

If you (plural) are looking for protection from someone else, you could someday be very disappointed. It is very rare for a police officer to be at the scene of a crime much less a responsible gun owner. The only persons that are sure to be at the scene of a crime are the criminal and the victim. Criminals are lazy, If they think their intended victim will put up a fight, usually there won’t be a crime committed.

One of the best things I have done in my life is to teach my daughters how to use firearms. The youngest was 8 when she was taught. I go to the firing range twice a month and most of the time my youngest is with me. The older ones are with me less often since they are adults.

I will tell you that my daughters are not sheep. I am very confident in their ability to protect themselves. They have learned that they are personally responsible for their protection. And they don’t necessarily rely on a firearm for personal protection. They understand that not putting yourself in a position to be a victim is number one. And firearms are a last resort. They are basically armed with the intent to protect themselves.

In a nutshell. I did not become a responsible gun owner to protect you (plural). I became a responsible gun owner to protect myself and my family. If someday it happens that I protect you from a crime, feel blessed, because that was not, is not, nor will be my intent. If it is your personal preference to be a sheep, that is fine. Don’t expect me to be the sheepdog when the wolves come howling. I am not a sheepdog, I am an ant preparing for winter.

It seems you entirely missed my point in the question, because I don't for one minute want you (singular) to come charging to my (singular) side for protection, thank you very much.

Gun owners want their rights to own a gun respected but as seen in this thread and many others, it seems "some" don't want to grant that same respect to individuals who choose NOT to own a gun or indeed a whole arsenal. They'd rather just mock opinions and hope that "someone like that" have a gun put to their head to change their mind on gun ownership.

As for the religious part of this thread... DeadPoolX...I'd love to see you start a thread with that post.... it would be interesting.

[Ban Hammer 13,136]

It'd probably be a good idea if the legal sale of firearms were limited to REAL gun shops. Not pawn shops and certainly not discount stores.

Silly mommy who thinks she might need the gun she never plans to fire might never get the idea if she didn't casually pass through the hunting section in WalMart and spot the rifles.

wal-mart isn't a real gun store?

while on the topic of pawn shops, they and wal-mart are required to perform checks prior to selling. so i don't see a difference between a "real gun store" a pawn shop or wal-mart.

Ah, we have put the 'i'll twist your words to suit myself' glasses on have we?

might be helpful as that would require removal of your blinders.

Charles..............

sowwie the temptation won

[garya505 2]

It'd probably be a good idea if the legal sale of firearms were limited to REAL gun shops. Not pawn shops and certainly not discount stores.

Silly mommy who thinks she might need the gun she never plans to fire might never get the idea if she didn't casually pass through the hunting section in WalMart and spot the rifles.

Actually pawn shops and discount stores have the same licensing requirements as a "real gun shop", at least in my state. Individual-to-individual transfers don't require any dealer license.

I doubt very much that most people get the idea to buy guns just because they happen to see them in WalMart. That's a bit of a stretch.

ETA: grammar

Edited February 18, 2008 by garya505

[rebeccajo 14]

It'd probably be a good idea if the legal sale of firearms were limited to REAL gun shops. Not pawn shops and certainly not discount stores.

Silly mommy who thinks she might need the gun she never plans to fire might never get the idea if she didn't casually pass through the hunting section in WalMart and spot the rifles.

Actually pawn shops and discount stores have the same licensing requirements as a "real gun shop", at least in my state. Individual-to-individual transfers that don't require any dealer license.

I doubt very much that most people get the idea to buy guns just because they happen to see them in WalMart. That's a bit of a stretch.

They might have the same licensing requirements, but if we want people to be more 'educated' then they should be required to make a purchase from someone trained to educate them. Make sense?

I wouldn't put it past people to decide about the final purchase of a weapon based on a whim. People spend larger amounts of money on whims. Don't underestimate the stupidity of the American consumer.