American businesswoman imprisoned in Saudi Arabia for going to Starbucks with unrelated male colleague

[Trompe le Monde 1,107]

I don't agree with what happened to this woman at all, but it doesn't sound like she suffered anything worse than the indignity of being thrown in jail. She wants to make a stink of it, because this doesn't happen at home, but she is in Saudi - and I expect the embassy is telling her to put up or shut up. When she says she "thought Saudi had become more liberal" so she thought she could get away with direspecting their laws

I do know where kaydee is coming from on this one - I have travelled through the middle east (both on business and as a tourist) and Westerners (men and women) can be very disrespectful. I gueess sometimes that comes back to bite them.

[Hilarious Clinton 452]

The Subjection of Islamic Women

And the fecklessness of American feminism.

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Publ...13/641szkys.asp

[kaydee457 13]

I do know where kaydee is coming from on this one - I have travelled through the middle east (both on business and as a tourist) and Westerners (men and women) can be very disrespectful. I gueess sometimes that comes back to bite them.

I agree totally! I've observed exactly the same thing, time and again.

I don't think I've said anything otherwise....I've said that this woman probably was told not to sit where she did, more than likely dismissed the warning, and no doubt an employee of Starbucks called the religious police....

Now the indigantion because they treated her as an ordinary Saudi woman.....

[mRx 16]

Really? So the kids of those dayum illegals shouldn't go to college ,etc?

I'm a legal US citizen and I say they should be allowed to. But unless the law permit them to, they can't.

It is for Saudis to speak out against their own legal system. It is not a foreigners place to do so.

So Human Rights Watch should close up shop? The UN should stop sanctioning nations? We're not accountable for what we allow other people to experience because they're not under the jurisdiction of our government? I'm not that nationalist, so I guess I don't feel the same way.

I don't think Amnesty International has had much success reforming the KSA. Any group for the that matter. They follow their laws, we follow ours.

I don't think the US should be turned to for solving all the problems of the world. It causes us more harm than it does them good. Humans are always going to inflict pain on one another. Sad but true.

[DeadPoolX 9]

Ok, so, just to clarify, you don't believe in human rights?

I know that question wasn't directed towards me, but I'll answer it anyway. I'm just rude that way.

I don't believe in "universal" human rights. Every country grants it's citizens a different set of rights and privileges. Many of these may overlap, but quite a few do not. Even the rights that overlap aren't exactly the same and it would be a gross mistake to believe that, as an American, I have all the same rights and privileges I'm accustomed to in the U.S. if I were visiting a foreign country, much less working or living in one. The same goes in reverse as well.

Sure, lots of people say that fair trials, no torture and so on are all "universal rights" but I'd say they were wrong. Those rights are far from "universal" in the world and many people have died in the history of this country so we could be afforded those rights. It's unfortunate so many individuals take them for granted.

Edited February 8, 2008 by DeadPoolX

[Alex & Rachel 78]

Nowhere in the article did she say that she expected to be treated differently nor did she compare Saudi Arabia to the US. She does say 'I was very lucky' and she was submissive to the judge. She recognises that she escaped harsher punishment than an ordinary Saudi Arabian woman thanks to her husband and her husband's connections. I suppose I am not reading the article in the same way as others of you are. Since she has been living in Saudi Arabia for eight years and wears the appropriate clothes and has not previously been in trouble I presume she probably has a very good understanding of how to conduct herself. We also can't assume that she was told not to sit in the booths by anyone. Surely her male colleague would have said something? She is trying to draw attention to the plight of the women living in Saudi Arabia, to the women who weren't as lucky as she.

[Alex+R 0]

Ok, so, just to clarify, you don't believe in human rights?

I know that question wasn't directed towards me, but I'll answer it anyway. I'm just rude that way.

I don't believe in "universal" human rights. Every country grants it's citizens a different set of rights and privileges. Many of these may overlap, but quite a few do not. Even the rights that overlap aren't exactly the same and it would be a gross mistake to believe that, as an American, I have all the same rights and privileges I'm accustomed to in the U.S. if I were visiting a foreign country, much less working or living in one. The same goes in reverse as well.

Sure, lots of people say that fair trials, no torture and so on are all "universal rights" but I'd say they were wrong. Those rights are far from "universal" in the world and many people have died in the history of this country so we could be afforded those rights. It's unfortunate so many individuals take them for granted.

Of course we all have our own national rights. But when we came together in 1948 to begin talking about human rights, rights that enshrined basic human decency into law, we took a step forward as human beings. I don't want to live in a world without people who believe that nobody deserves to be tortured.

RE: the Saudi issue: I don't think the woman is complaining because she's American. I think she's complaining because she has the power to complain, and she's doing it for Saudi women, of whom she is now one. I'm sure many people show up in the Middle East and are not respectful -- I certainly don't think a business trip is the time to challenge the laws of another country -- but that just doesn't apply to this scenario.

[Trompe le Monde 1,107]

I have to say - as Western woman, no way in he!! I would go to Saudi even if my career depended on it.

[Alex+R 0]

Nowhere in the article did she say that she expected to be treated differently nor did she compare Saudi Arabia to the US. She does say 'I was very lucky' and she was submissive to the judge. She recognises that she escaped harsher punishment than an ordinary Saudi Arabian woman thanks to her husband and her husband's connections. I suppose I am not reading the article in the same way as others of you are. Since she has been living in Saudi Arabia for eight years and wears the appropriate clothes and has not previously been in trouble I presume she probably has a very good understanding of how to conduct herself. We also can't assume that she was told not to sit in the booths by anyone. Surely her male colleague would have said something? She is trying to draw attention to the plight of the women living in Saudi Arabia, to the women who weren't as lucky as she.

Exactly. Are we the only ones who see it this way?

This has nothing to do with coming to a foreign country and not knowing the customs.

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

I have to say - as Western woman, no way in he!! I would go to Saudi even if my career depended on it.

I wouldn't go and I'm male.

I'd happily visit Dubai, however. I've heard nice things.

[Trompe le Monde 1,107]

I male friend of mine got thrown in jail in relatively liberal Qatar for "public drunkeness" - he wears it like a badge of honor though rumor has it he cried like a little girl

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

I male friend of mine got thrown in jail in relatively liberal Qatar for "public drunkeness" - he wears it like a badge of honor though rumor has it he cried like a little girl

[DeadPoolX 9]

Ok, so, just to clarify, you don't believe in human rights?

I know that question wasn't directed towards me, but I'll answer it anyway. I'm just rude that way.

I don't believe in "universal" human rights. Every country grants it's citizens a different set of rights and privileges. Many of these may overlap, but quite a few do not. Even the rights that overlap aren't exactly the same and it would be a gross mistake to believe that, as an American, I have all the same rights and privileges I'm accustomed to in the U.S. if I were visiting a foreign country, much less working or living in one. The same goes in reverse as well.

Sure, lots of people say that fair trials, no torture and so on are all "universal rights" but I'd say they were wrong. Those rights are far from "universal" in the world and many people have died in the history of this country so we could be afforded those rights. It's unfortunate so many individuals take them for granted.

Of course we all have our own national rights. But when we came together in 1948 to begin talking about human rights, rights that enshrined basic human decency into law, we took a step forward as human beings. I don't want to live in a world without people who believe that nobody deserves to be tortured.

RE: the Saudi issue: I don't think the woman is complaining because she's American. I think she's complaining because she has the power to complain, and she's doing it for Saudi women, of whom she is now one. I'm sure many people show up in the Middle East and are not respectful -- I certainly don't think a business trip is the time to challenge the laws of another country -- but that just doesn't apply to this scenario.

I'm not really arguing with you there, Alex. My issue is... how do we enforce a set of "basic universal rights" that may or may not coincide with a country's cultural and societal standards? In 1948, the bulk of these "universal rights" were written by powerful old white men from western nations, all of whom most likely knew little-to-nothing about the Middle East (or if they did, it was probably based on stereotypes and therefore, not very accurate).

It's not that I particularly care about Saudi Arabia. I've never been there and I have no desire to ever go there either. But I wouldn't want people from a far away land with no connections to my culture deciding what standards my country must live by too.

[Hilarious Clinton 452]

I have to say - as Western woman, no way in he!! I would go to Saudi even if my career depended on it.

I wouldn't go and I'm male.

I'd happily visit Dubai, however. I've heard nice things.

Yeah. I've been to the UAE and Bahrain a couple of times. Got drunk with Arabs in Bahrain. The rules are very subjective in that part of the world.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Ok, so, just to clarify, you don't believe in human rights?

I know that question wasn't directed towards me, but I'll answer it anyway. I'm just rude that way.

I don't believe in "universal" human rights. Every country grants it's citizens a different set of rights and privileges. Many of these may overlap, but quite a few do not. Even the rights that overlap aren't exactly the same and it would be a gross mistake to believe that, as an American, I have all the same rights and privileges I'm accustomed to in the U.S. if I were visiting a foreign country, much less working or living in one. The same goes in reverse as well.

Sure, lots of people say that fair trials, no torture and so on are all "universal rights" but I'd say they were wrong. Those rights are far from "universal" in the world and many people have died in the history of this country so we could be afforded those rights. It's unfortunate so many individuals take them for granted.

Of course we all have our own national rights. But when we came together in 1948 to begin talking about human rights, rights that enshrined basic human decency into law, we took a step forward as human beings. I don't want to live in a world without people who believe that nobody deserves to be tortured.

Yup.

Otherwise it seems we're very close to suggesting that someone who believes, for example, that a person should be nailed to a tree, flogged, or stoned to death for failing to comply with an arbitrary law (that BTW injures noone) has about as much claim to moral authority as someone who believes such things are reprehensible, backward and repugnant.