American businesswoman imprisoned in Saudi Arabia for going to Starbucks with unrelated male colleague

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

kaydee,

Sometimes it's worth remembering how much Americans dislike it when furriners come here and try to change America. It cuts both ways.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

I'm still trying to understand how brutalising human beings - with violence and humiliation is justifiable on any level whatsoever.

[kaydee457 13]

To sum it up....This woman's indignant because she was treated like an ordinary Saudi woman. How dare they?

I'm sure the U.S. Embassy gave her two options, and probably a bit of advice; shut up and persevere within the bounds of their laws or buy an airplane ticket and go home ......afterall, you are a guest in this country

Ms. I'mAnAmericanAndISitWhereIWant!

[mRx 16]

I'm still trying to understand how brutalising human beings - with violence and humiliation is justifiable on any level whatsoever.

That is Sharia law, brother.

[Alex & Rachel 78]

“If I want to make a difference I have to stick around. If I leave they win. I can't just surrender to the terrorist acts of these people,” said Yara, who moved to Jeddah eight years ago with her husband, a prominent businessman.

*snip*

“Some men came up to us with very long beards and white dresses. They asked ‘Why are you here together?'. I explained about the power being out in our office. They got very angry and told me what I was doing was a great sin,” recalled Yara, who wears an abaya and headscarf, like most Saudi women.

There are two bits that seemed to be missed by some!

Also, it's worth realising that Islam has been around since the 7th Century - it's old, but not that old. And in the Middle Ages Islamic nations were far more progressive in many ways, both in terms of education and socially, than Christian Western Europe.

It also mentions in the article that Yara believed Saudi Arabia was growing more liberal as of late, and that the Saudi Arabian press have condemned the actions of the police. This implies that Yara may well have been right not to expect this form of treatment and wasn't merely ignorant. The article isn't very clear on that point.

Anyway, it seems to me that Yara isn't so much playing the 'this shouldn't have happened to me, I'm an American!' card so much as she is saying 'look, world, here is how Saudi Arabia is treating its citizens, I want to fight it, other women do not have the husband and connections that I do, and as I am able to get my story out in the world press, this is what I am doing'.

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

I'm still trying to understand how brutalising human beings - with violence and humiliation is justifiable on any level whatsoever.

That is Sharia law, brother.

Exactly. That is the law of the KSA and she knowingly violated it by being in a Starbucks with an unrelated male relative.

I'm not saying it's a legal system I support (I don't) but it is the law where she lives, regardless. She should have complied.

[DeadPoolX 9]

I had a few colleagues who were Saudis (Ive never been to the country), and they were proud, upstanding, deeply religious gentlemen, with nothing but love for their country. I am sure they are fully aware of the laws in Saudi, and what happens to those who either do break the law, or allegedly break the law, whether considered a religious or general crime. They conducted themselves impeccably whilst in London, meeting female business acquaintances with grace and joining us for dinner at an establishment that served alcohol. They are only too aware that the west conducts itself differently. I am sure the things they saw in London made their toes curl, but they were in a different country with different laws and culture, and they respected this. Yes Saudi has laws that may not seem appealing to other nations, and certainly their methods of punishment will be considered barbaric by others. However, we cannot assume that this makes all the inhabitants unhappy, or that we need some form of law reform their to rescue the Saudis from this evil regime. Hell, I don't agree with quite a lot of the laws in Britain, especially when you see a rapist serve 8 weeks in jail instead of life, or a burglar being able to sue the owner of the house he burgled because he cut himself on glass when entering through a window. We cannot erase centuries of strong culture and customs simply because we dislike it or think its too harsh.

Noone's saying we can or should, but I definitely don't think we should be supporting such things. As I say - brutalising a person (with humiliation and violence) is wrong and cannot be justified in any way shape or form.

Why do people insist on hiding behind cultural and moral relativisms rather than condemning this?

I just find ironic -- if not somewhat humorous -- that the same people who generally cling to "cultural and moral relativism" are now against it when it suits their purpose. Usually the more "liberal" members of this board like to say things such as "all cultures, societies and religions are equal" whenever other members on here talk about the U.S. forcing it's views on different nations.

Why the sudden change of heart?

I don't cling to cultural and moral relativism - I've always been against brutality and murder etc. I don't believe (any) people should be treated like garbage.

There's also a difference between comparative ideologies (like religions) and the way those are implemented or enshrined in law.

Secret police are just not my bag.

I don't want people to be brutalized or murdered either. I'm not saying they should be either. But what are we going to do about it? At the moment, Saudi Arabia has the U.S. in a very precarious position due to our reliance on them for oil. Our only two options would be...

1. Quit purchasing Saudi oil -- This sounds great and while it would hurt their bank accounts, it'd hurt us more than them. We need their oil to run our entire country; they'd just see a reduction in their overall income. If we plan to do this, we need to have fully functional alternative sources of energy in plance beforehand.

2. Go to war -- Normally, I wouldn't be against this option. I see nothing wrong with going in there and taking the oil fields from the Saudis; they've been extorting us for ages. The problem is that the U.S. military is spread thin between Afghanistan and Iraq right now and every terrorist in the Middle East is closing in on the soldiers there. Attacking Saudi Arabia would just serve to further fuel their hatred of the U.S. and make them even more motivated to kill our troops (and possibly civilians later on too).

So really, it's just a bunch of talk. We can beat our chests and talk a good fight until we're all blue in the face, but at the end of the day, nothing would have changed.

These O/T forums are all talk. If people thought that the discussions were pointless or irrelevant then surely noone would participate or bother talking about any of these things.

Perhaps everyone should just stop talking about the news because half (well, most actually) of the stuff we hear or read about we can do nothing about?

I realize that. What I'm saying is that if you really find the laws in the Middle East to be such an example of a human rights violation, why not attempt to do something about it instead of talking to us? Don't get me wrong, I enjoy the discussion, but nothing will change unless you (or someone else) attempts to go through the proper channels. Somehow I doubt very many of the necessary people you'd need to speak to would be on the off-topic forum on VJ.

[Alex+R 0]

I'm still trying to understand how brutalising human beings - with violence and humiliation is justifiable on any level whatsoever.

That is Sharia law, brother.

Exactly. That is the law of the KSA and she knowingly violated it by being in a Starbucks with an unrelated male relative.

I'm not saying it's a legal system I support (I don't) but it is the law where she lives, regardless. She should have complied.

Really? So the kids of those dayum illegals shouldn't go to college ,etc?

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

Really? So the kids of those dayum illegals shouldn't go to college ,etc?

I'm a legal US citizen and I say they should be allowed to. But unless the law permit them to, they can't.

It is for Saudis to speak out against their own legal system. It is not a foreigners place to do so.

[DeadPoolX 9]

I'm still trying to understand how brutalising human beings - with violence and humiliation is justifiable on any level whatsoever.

That is Sharia law, brother.

Exactly. That is the law of the KSA and she knowingly violated it by being in a Starbucks with an unrelated male relative.

I'm not saying it's a legal system I support (I don't) but it is the law where she lives, regardless. She should have complied.

Really? So the kids of those dayum illegals shouldn't go to college ,etc?

I must've missed something, but... what?

How did we go from the treatment of an American businesswoman in the Middle East to whether or not the children of illegals should go to college?

[Peikko 1,575]

Alex & Rachel Good post.

Also, I find it highly ironic that those who are shouting loudest for the upholding of the laws of the land are the ones who most often appear to have double standards on this issue (hence my cynical laughter). They mock a woman for getting 'all bent out of shape' when it comes to this law when she 'should have known better' and yet, if it's something that they don't agree with (Islamic fundamentalism springs to the top of the list instantly) it's all, 'we know better than them, they must not treat our/teir people like this' and it's an excuse to go invade a country.

Contrary to what has been implied I do respect the laws of other nations and I do think that that is what should be done. However, it's not wrong to feel that universally we should strive for laws that are respectful and humane to all people, not just some chosen few, regardless how the 'choosing' comes about.

Edited February 8, 2008 by Purple_Hibiscus

[Alex+R 0]

Really? So the kids of those dayum illegals shouldn't go to college ,etc?

I'm a legal US citizen and I say they should be allowed to. But unless the law permit them to, they can't.

It is for Saudis to speak out against their own legal system. It is not a foreigners place to do so.

So Human Rights Watch should close up shop? The UN should stop sanctioning nations? We're not accountable for what we allow other people to experience because they're not under the jurisdiction of our government? I'm not that nationalist, so I guess I don't feel the same way.

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

Really? So the kids of those dayum illegals shouldn't go to college ,etc?

I'm a legal US citizen and I say they should be allowed to. But unless the law permit them to, they can't.

It is for Saudis to speak out against their own legal system. It is not a foreigners place to do so.

So Human Rights Watch should close up shop? The UN should stop sanctioning nations? We're not accountable for what we allow other people to experience because they're not under the jurisdiction of our government? I'm not that nationalist, so I guess I don't feel the same way.

Good, we agree to disagree then

[Alex+R 0]

Ok, so, just to clarify, you don't believe in human rights?

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

Ok, so, just to clarify, you don't believe in human rights?

Nope. Human rights are a figment of our imagination. We have no creator and he's given us no rights.