American businesswoman imprisoned in Saudi Arabia for going to Starbucks with unrelated male colleague

[kaydee457 13]

I think the 'it's their country and their laws' argument is histerical. Colour me cynical.

Yep. And that statement cant' really stand without some sort of assumption that a country that imposes these laws is actually half-decent at the due process of law.

Hey its not like you actually need to have done something to wind up on the wrong side of the law in Saudi Arabia. Its one of the most racist countries going.

LOL... Same cast of characters! Yes, it's HYSTERICAL (spelling)..........

Whatever titlick. Don't let me get in the way of your amorality.

At least you stay in character......

Going straight for the personal attacks when your arguments fall short....

I'm not sure how my arguments "fell short" - given the preceding post..

You didn't exactly disprove or refute anything, did you...

You keep banging on about how people lack experience, and that your ill-defined and oversold experience is "superior" - and that simply saying that a person's arguments "fall short" is sufficient argument for it to be so. Afraid I don't buy it... I wonder how many do...

If there's one difference between us - its that I don't self advertise.

What's to say? I've been there and you haven't been there.....Here's another tidbit of info for you; pre Iranian coup I was also in Ifshahan, IRAN..... I lived there for 8 months.

Yes, whilst the Shah of Iran was still in power....

Number, you wish to have experience? I would gladly trade it for your youth, regardless of how arrogant and unaccomplished you are.

I long for those days!

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

I think the 'it's their country and their laws' argument is histerical. Colour me cynical.

Yep. And that statement cant' really stand without some sort of assumption that a country that imposes these laws is actually half-decent at the due process of law.

Hey its not like you actually need to have done something to wind up on the wrong side of the law in Saudi Arabia. Its one of the most racist countries going.

LOL... Same cast of characters! Yes, it's HYSTERICAL (spelling)..........

Whatever titlick. Don't let me get in the way of your amorality.

At least you stay in character......

Going straight for the personal attacks when your arguments fall short....

I'm not sure how my arguments "fell short" - given the preceding post..

You didn't exactly disprove or refute anything, did you...

You keep banging on about how people lack experience, and that your ill-defined and oversold experience is "superior" - and that simply saying that a person's arguments "fall short" is sufficient argument for it to be so. Afraid I don't buy it... I wonder how many do...

If there's one difference between us - its that I don't self advertise.

What's to say? I've been there and you haven't been there.....Here's another tidbit of info for you; pre Iranian coup I was also in Ifshahan, IRAN..... I lived there for 8 months.

Yes, whilst the Shah of Iran was still in power....

Number, you wish to have experience? I would gladly trade it for your youth, regardless of how arrogant and unaccomplished you are.

I long for those days!

You don't seem to understand what I'm saying.

All you ever do is "say" these things, whether you've been there or not (and I'm not saying you haven't) is not the point when the insights from that experience seem notably absent?

More than that - where is your experience when it comes to critiqueing or refuting the arguments made by others? Again all you ever do is "say" things are wrong... No elaboration, no exposition. So.. again.. I don't buy it.

IMHO - I think you're full of ####### - doubtless you think the same of me, but again the difference here is I'm not out here self-advertising. You self-advertise and self-promote all over the shop while never bringing anything substantive to the table. At the same time you seem to demand or expect some sort of credibility or respect for your ad statements.

Time served does not equal "experience" - when a person can while their life away at a minimum wage job, get to 50 and still have few useful skills to show for it.

[kaydee457 13]

Ifsahan, Iran.... Correcting spelling.....F14 tomcat sold to Iran before outster of Shah......

[Converse34 1]

ooh!

[kaydee457 13]

I think the 'it's their country and their laws' argument is histerical. Colour me cynical.

Yep. And that statement cant' really stand without some sort of assumption that a country that imposes these laws is actually half-decent at the due process of law.

Hey its not like you actually need to have done something to wind up on the wrong side of the law in Saudi Arabia. Its one of the most racist countries going.

LOL... Same cast of characters! Yes, it's HYSTERICAL (spelling)..........

Whatever titlick. Don't let me get in the way of your amorality.

At least you stay in character......

Going straight for the personal attacks when your arguments fall short....

I'm not sure how my arguments "fell short" - given the preceding post..

You didn't exactly disprove or refute anything, did you...

You keep banging on about how people lack experience, and that your ill-defined and oversold experience is "superior" - and that simply saying that a person's arguments "fall short" is sufficient argument for it to be so. Afraid I don't buy it... I wonder how many do...

If there's one difference between us - its that I don't self advertise.

What's to say? I've been there and you haven't been there.....Here's another tidbit of info for you; pre Iranian coup I was also in Ifshahan, IRAN..... I lived there for 8 months.

Yes, whilst the Shah of Iran was still in power....

Number, you wish to have experience? I would gladly trade it for your youth, regardless of how arrogant and unaccomplished you are.

I long for those days!

You don't seem to understand what I'm saying.

All you ever do is "say" these things, whether you've been there or not (and I'm not saying you haven't) is not the point when the insights from that experience seem notably absent?

More than that - where is your experience when it comes to critiqueing or refuting the arguments made by others? Again all you ever do is "say" things are wrong... No elaboration, no exposition. So.. again.. I don't buy it.

IMHO - I think you're full of ####### - doubtless you think the same of me, but again the difference here is I'm not out here self-advertising. You self-advertise and self-promote all over the shop while never bringing anything substantive to the table. At the same time you seem to demand or expect some sort of credibility or respect for your ad statements.

Time served does not equal "experience" - when a person can while their life away at a minimum wage job, get to 50 and still have few useful skills to show for it.

LOL. You're kidding right? I have refuted your arguments time and again in these threads. In this thread your argument is simply my anti-argument.....

You never have any coherent argument whatsoever, and I suspect that deep down inside you know that you're dwarfed by certain people in this forum. You're no march for me!

Let's just get back on topic.

I refuted your argument here as you clearly don't know the difference between living under shria law and advocating it.

This is your assignment, grasshopper.

Go back and read all the posts to this thread, and after having read all, get back to me.

It's clear to me that you haven't bothered.

Edited February 8, 2008 by kaydee457

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

I think the 'it's their country and their laws' argument is histerical. Colour me cynical.

Yep. And that statement cant' really stand without some sort of assumption that a country that imposes these laws is actually half-decent at the due process of law.

Hey its not like you actually need to have done something to wind up on the wrong side of the law in Saudi Arabia. Its one of the most racist countries going.

LOL... Same cast of characters! Yes, it's HYSTERICAL (spelling)..........

Whatever titlick. Don't let me get in the way of your amorality.

At least you stay in character......

Going straight for the personal attacks when your arguments fall short....

I'm not sure how my arguments "fell short" - given the preceding post..

You didn't exactly disprove or refute anything, did you...

You keep banging on about how people lack experience, and that your ill-defined and oversold experience is "superior" - and that simply saying that a person's arguments "fall short" is sufficient argument for it to be so. Afraid I don't buy it... I wonder how many do...

If there's one difference between us - its that I don't self advertise.

What's to say? I've been there and you haven't been there.....Here's another tidbit of info for you; pre Iranian coup I was also in Ifshahan, IRAN..... I lived there for 8 months.

Yes, whilst the Shah of Iran was still in power....

Number, you wish to have experience? I would gladly trade it for your youth, regardless of how arrogant and unaccomplished you are.

I long for those days!

You don't seem to understand what I'm saying.

All you ever do is "say" these things, whether you've been there or not (and I'm not saying you haven't) is not the point when the insights from that experience seem notably absent?

More than that - where is your experience when it comes to critiqueing or refuting the arguments made by others? Again all you ever do is "say" things are wrong... No elaboration, no exposition. So.. again.. I don't buy it.

IMHO - I think you're full of ####### - doubtless you think the same of me, but again the difference here is I'm not out here self-advertising. You self-advertise and self-promote all over the shop while never bringing anything substantive to the table. At the same time you seem to demand or expect some sort of credibility or respect for your ad statements.

Time served does not equal "experience" - when a person can while their life away at a minimum wage job, get to 50 and still have few useful skills to show for it.

LOL. You're kidding right? I have refuted your arguments time and again in these threads. In this thread your argument is simply my anti-argument.....

You never have any coherent argument whatsoever, and I suspect that deep down inside you know that you're dwarfed by certain people in this forum. You're no march for me!

Let's just get back on topic.

I refuted your argument here as you clearly don't know the difference between living under shria law and advocating it.

This is your assignment, grasshopper.

Go back and read all the posts to this thread, and after having read all, get back to me.

It's clear to me that you haven't bothered.

You haven't refuted one single thing that I've said. Again all you do is "say so" and expect that to be enough. Again - I'm not buying the horseshit that you're selling

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Perhaps the "its their country" stuff can be applied to these threads.

Saudi Arabia to Punish Survivor of Gang Rape with 200 Lashes and Prison Term

Rape case roils Saudi legal system

Saudi king pardons rape victim

Blogger detained in Saudi

Saudis Ban "Pan Arab" Newspaper, After it criticises the government

Village elders drive raped woman out of village in eastern India

20 arrested at Saudi gay wedding

Saudi Arabia Beheads Two Convicted Drug Smugglers, A cure for the smuggling problem on the USA border.

What's heinous in these is apparently the victim's fault here. What gives?

Number, and your point is what? It's really not their country?

I've never defended their "methods", just the fact that people that visit, or live there for business purposes, in their country, particularly westerners, seem to believe that the have priveledge in terms of breaking shria law.....

They don't......Hence they get hauled off to jail, poked, prodded, and whatever, then released, hopefully having learned something.

It's just a fact of life!

Frankly, this idjit, the woman mentioned, doesn't know how to shut her mouth. That may be an unfortunate spout of naivte for her if she still resides there!

If you don't like them don't go there!

#######?

One (obvious) reason I posted those articles - was that they are loaded with fire and brimstone about "those evil people", "How dare they" etc. I'm just wondering why "Its their country..." doesn't pertain to the comments made in those threads any more than it does here (by some of the same people I might add). Seems a little contradictory.

But I'm a little confused here - you 'say' you're not defending their methods, but then you go on to say that "supposedly" a person should "learn" something from the experience of being flogged, stripped, raped or what have you. How does that work...? I mean... what should they be learning exactly? That Saudi Arabia is a barbaric $hithole of country, with a joke of a justice system - that the US Govt feels (for all its rhetoric about "freedom") that prostituting its moral ideals for economic advantage is a worthy tradeoff?

I wonder how many people said "Its their country, they can do what they want" of the Soviet Gulags..

Yes they can do what they want... that doesn't mean that it shouldn't be condemned. Does it?

Edited February 8, 2008 by Number 6

[Amby 490]

The point was that she lives there, so she's probably aware of the country's many customs. She's not some ignorant person on a business trip just because that gives you a reason to talk about having been there.

But mostly I'm just disgusted by your approval of law above anything else, even if it's really, really offensive law.

Finally, the root of the argument....You're indignant over my acceptance of the laws in Saudi Arabia? Well, I'm not an advocate of shria law, but I'm old enough to understand that if you visit their country, IT'S their country and their laws!

Listen, Alex+R, welcome to the real world!

Let's hope that upon graduation you lock down a job that'll give you some real world perspective.....

what about the sharia law in britain? is that now their country and their laws? I mean if you are saying respect the laws in that country then you are surely against bringing sharia law to britain.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

The point was that she lives there, so she's probably aware of the country's many customs. She's not some ignorant person on a business trip just because that gives you a reason to talk about having been there.

But mostly I'm just disgusted by your approval of law above anything else, even if it's really, really offensive law.

Finally, the root of the argument....You're indignant over my acceptance of the laws in Saudi Arabia? Well, I'm not an advocate of shria law, but I'm old enough to understand that if you visit their country, IT'S their country and their laws!

Listen, Alex+R, welcome to the real world!

Let's hope that upon graduation you lock down a job that'll give you some real world perspective.....

what about the sharia law in britain? is that now their country and their laws? I mean if you are saying respect the laws in that country then you are surely against bringing sharia law to britain.

Thats not really the same thing - civil laws relating to family disputes (per the UK scenario) are not the same as criminal laws that would get a person arrested and locked up (per this case).

No UK court is going to sentence someone to be flogged for adultery, cutting off hands for theft, or beheading for murder.

Closest we ever had to that was the (crazy) judge a few years back who ordered that a defendant be hanged by the neck. He had no power to enforce the sentence and it was immediately overturned.

Edited February 8, 2008 by Number 6

[Amby 490]

The point was that she lives there, so she's probably aware of the country's many customs. She's not some ignorant person on a business trip just because that gives you a reason to talk about having been there.

But mostly I'm just disgusted by your approval of law above anything else, even if it's really, really offensive law.

Finally, the root of the argument....You're indignant over my acceptance of the laws in Saudi Arabia? Well, I'm not an advocate of shria law, but I'm old enough to understand that if you visit their country, IT'S their country and their laws!

Listen, Alex+R, welcome to the real world!

Let's hope that upon graduation you lock down a job that'll give you some real world perspective.....

what about the sharia law in britain? is that now their country and their laws? I mean if you are saying respect the laws in that country then you are surely against bringing sharia law to britain.

Thats not really the same thing - civil laws relating to family disputes (per the UK scenario) are not the same as criminal laws that would get a person arrested and locked up (per this case).

the civil laws will only lead to crazy criminal laws eventually. that's just my opinion though. we'll keep this discussion back in that thread though. sorry for bringing it up.

Edited February 8, 2008 by Amber&Neil

[panamania79 2]

A 37-year-old American businesswoman and married mother of three is seeking justice after she was thrown in jail by Saudi Arabia's religious police for sitting with a male colleague at a Starbucks coffee shop in Riyadh.

Yara, who does not want her last name published for fear of retribution, was bruised and crying when she was freed from a day in prison after she was strip-searched, threatened and forced to sign false confessions by the Kingdom's “Mutaween” police.

...

“If I want to make a difference I have to stick around. If I leave they win. I can't just surrender to the terrorist acts of these people,” said Yara, who moved to Jeddah eight years ago with her husband, a prominent businessman.

Her ordeal began with a routine visit to the new Riyadh offices of her finance company, where she is a managing partner.

The electricity temporarily cut out, so Yara and her colleagues — who are all men — went to a nearby Starbucks to use its wireless internet.

She sat in a curtained booth with her business partner in the café's “family” area, the only seats where men and women are allowed to mix.

For Yara, it was a matter of convenience. But in Saudi Arabia, public contact between unrelated men and women is strictly prohibited.

“Some men came up to us with very long beards and white dresses. They asked ‘Why are you here together?'. I explained about the power being out in our office. They got very angry and told me what I was doing was a great sin,” recalled Yara, who wears an abaya and headscarf, like most Saudi women.

The men were from Saudi Arabia's Commission for Promotion of Virtue and Prevention of Vice, a police force of several thousand men charged with enforcing dress codes, sex segregation and the observance of prayers.

Yara, whose parents are Jordanian and grew up in Salt Lake City, once believed that life in Saudi Arabia was becoming more liberal. But on Monday the religious police took her mobile phone, pushed her into a cab and drove her to Malaz prison in Riyadh. She was interrogated, strip-searched and forced to sign and fingerprint a series of confessions pleading guilty to her “crime”.

“They took me into a filthy bathroom, full of water and dirt. They made me take off my clothes and squat and they threw my clothes in this slush and made me put them back on,” she said. Eventually she was taken before a judge.

“He said 'You are sinful and you are going to burn in hell'. I told him I was sorry. I was very submissive. I had given up. I felt hopeless,” she said.

Yara's husband, Hatim, used his political contacts in Jeddah to track her whereabouts. He was able to secure her release.

“I was lucky. I met other women in that prison who don't have the connections I did,” she said. Her story has received rare coverage in Saudi Arabia, where the press has been sharply critical of the police.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/worl...icle3321637.ece

Well I guess I can just cross this off of my future vacation destinations.I had no idea they had a Strbucks over there.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

The point was that she lives there, so she's probably aware of the country's many customs. She's not some ignorant person on a business trip just because that gives you a reason to talk about having been there.

But mostly I'm just disgusted by your approval of law above anything else, even if it's really, really offensive law.

Finally, the root of the argument....You're indignant over my acceptance of the laws in Saudi Arabia? Well, I'm not an advocate of shria law, but I'm old enough to understand that if you visit their country, IT'S their country and their laws!

Listen, Alex+R, welcome to the real world!

Let's hope that upon graduation you lock down a job that'll give you some real world perspective.....

what about the sharia law in britain? is that now their country and their laws? I mean if you are saying respect the laws in that country then you are surely against bringing sharia law to britain.

Thats not really the same thing - civil laws relating to family disputes (per the UK scenario) are not the same as criminal laws that would get a person arrested and locked up (per this case).

the civil laws will only lead to crazy criminal laws eventually. that's just my opinion though

There's no reason to think that would happen - short of some sort of Islamic fundamentalist revolution in the UK. In any case I'm not sure why this should happen any more than it hasn't with the catholic or jewish precepts. Pretty much the only thing to come out of those is a half-hearted attempt to drag abortion out of the closet again.

Edited February 8, 2008 by Number 6

[DeadPoolX 9]

I really don't see what's so difficult to understand here.

Different countries have different laws and rules. That shouldn't be too surprising; even western countries can differ from each other a great deal, so why wouldn't the United States and a Middle Eastern nation like Saudi Arabia be very different?

The fact that we may dislike or disagree with a country's current set of laws is, to be blunt, rather meaningless. We don't live there nor do have any say in their government body. We may criticize all we like (such is our right as a "free" country), but every other nation on the planet also has the right to govern themselves as they see fit. The one caveat to that idea is if a country proves itself to be a threat to other nations.

I'm sure many people in Saudi Arabia (and surrounding Middle Eastern countries) disapprove of the American lifestyle and our legal system as well. Does that mean we have an obligation to change it? Of course not! It doesn't matter what they think. The U.S. governs itself -- not Saudi Arabia or any other country.

I honestly think some Americans -- and citizens of other western nations -- need to broaden their mindset a little. Just because we're used to something and find it acceptable, that doesn't mean everyone does; likewise, the reverse may be true too. No one says you have to like it or accept it on a personal level, but that doesn't make it wrong either.

[joelunchbox 0]

I really don't see what's so difficult to understand here.

Different countries have different laws and rules. That shouldn't be too surprising; even western countries can differ from each other a great deal, so why wouldn't the United States and a Middle Eastern nation like Saudi Arabia be very different?

The fact that we may dislike or disagree with a country's current set of laws is, to be blunt, rather meaningless. We don't live there nor do have any say in their government body. We may criticize all we like (such is our right as a "free" country), but every other nation on the planet also has the right to govern themselves as they see fit. The one caveat to that idea is if a country proves itself to be a threat to other nations.

I'm sure many people in Saudi Arabia (and surrounding Middle Eastern countries) disapprove of the American lifestyle and our legal system as well. Does that mean we have an obligation to change it? Of course not! It doesn't matter what they think. The U.S. governs itself -- not Saudi Arabia or any other country.

I honestly think some Americans -- and citizens of other western nations -- need to broaden their mindset a little. Just because we're used to something and find it acceptable, that doesn't mean everyone does; likewise, the reverse may be true too. No one says you have to like it or accept it on a personal level, but that doesn't make it wrong either.

Please correct me if I am mistaken but....don't many middle eastern countries have two sets of laws? Civil imposed by the government and then they have have Sharia--laws imposed by religion. The civil laws can be located in a book, read and interpreted. However, the Sharia laws are often just a way for bigoted, ignorant people to berate other people they don't like. Sharia may have good intentions but in practice it often turns into vigilantism. If you put 1000 Sharia law experts in a room, you will probably get 2000 interpretations depending on who the intended victim is.

Best solution? Education But that is probably against someone's interpretation of Sharia law.

Our best solution? Get non dependent on imported oil. If we are not reliant on them then we can actually have some leverage on their affairs or decide not to be involved.

When those thugs saw that woman, their first thought was probably, "we need to put this western woman in her place".

[DeadPoolX 9]

I really don't see what's so difficult to understand here.

Different countries have different laws and rules. That shouldn't be too surprising; even western countries can differ from each other a great deal, so why wouldn't the United States and a Middle Eastern nation like Saudi Arabia be very different?

The fact that we may dislike or disagree with a country's current set of laws is, to be blunt, rather meaningless. We don't live there nor do have any say in their government body. We may criticize all we like (such is our right as a "free" country), but every other nation on the planet also has the right to govern themselves as they see fit. The one caveat to that idea is if a country proves itself to be a threat to other nations.

I'm sure many people in Saudi Arabia (and surrounding Middle Eastern countries) disapprove of the American lifestyle and our legal system as well. Does that mean we have an obligation to change it? Of course not! It doesn't matter what they think. The U.S. governs itself -- not Saudi Arabia or any other country.

I honestly think some Americans -- and citizens of other western nations -- need to broaden their mindset a little. Just because we're used to something and find it acceptable, that doesn't mean everyone does; likewise, the reverse may be true too. No one says you have to like it or accept it on a personal level, but that doesn't make it wrong either.

Please correct me if I am mistaken but....don't many middle eastern countries have two sets of laws? Civil imposed by the government and then they have have Sharia--laws imposed by religion. The civil laws can be located in a book, read and interpreted. However, the Sharia laws are often just a way for bigoted, ignorant people to berate other people they don't like. Sharia may have good intentions but in practice it often turns into vigilantism. If you put 1000 Sharia law experts in a room, you will probably get 2000 interpretations depending on who the intended victim is.

Best solution? Education But that is probably against someone's interpretation of Sharia law.

Our best solution? Get non dependent on imported oil. If we are not reliant on them then we can actually have some leverage on their affairs or decide not to be involved.

When those thugs saw that woman, their first thought was probably, "we need to put this western woman in her place".

I'm not entirely disagreeing with you nor am I suggesting that I am in favor of Sharia laws. However, as far as I can tell, Middle Eastern countries fail to recognize the separation of "church and state" such as the U.S. does, so to them, perhaps the lines between civil and religious laws are blurred. Even within the United States, we have people who want to impose their religious views on the government and the citizens of this country, despite the fact such acts are frowned upon and generally considered illegal. In countries where religion has a much greater foothold and the overall education levels are less, do you really think that there is much opposition to the combination of civil and religious doctrine? Probably not, I'd say. If there is, they know better than to voice their dissent.

I'm not so sure education would really help matters. Where do you think school children would receive their education from? Not from the United States, Canada, Australia or the UK, I can tell you that much. They'd get lesson plans from their home countries, which would force-feed them what their leaders -- both civil and religious -- felt they needed to know and most importantly, wanted them to believe. In the end, education such as this might actually make the situation more volatile.

Get off Saudi oil is a great idea. How? Lofty goals and ambitions are one thing, but having a clear, concise plan is something else entirely. When oil companies refuse to entertain the notion of researching and moving towards alternative fuel sources (even going so far as to shut down attempts to study them), the chances of this happening are quite slim. We can't very well stop using oil tomorrow; our country would grind to a halt. We need to slowly withdraw from our massive oil use while working on other methods of producing energy. Unfortunately, unless we can convince the current power companies that doing so is in their best interest (read: profitable), it probably won't happen.