American businesswoman imprisoned in Saudi Arabia for going to Starbucks with unrelated male colleague

[Ban Hammer 13,355]

Of course the US would. We're so far in bed with the Saudis we're incapable of taking an ethical position.

alex! and all this time i thought you disliked sex talk! you sly devil you!

[Alex+R 0]

Of course the US would. We're so far in bed with the Saudis we're incapable of taking an ethical position.

alex! and all this time i thought you disliked sex talk! you sly devil you!

rrowr!

[DeadPoolX 9]

K, I am definitely off this round-a-bout. If anyone wants to continue to argue that this women is merely silly, that her treatment was a bagatelle that should 'teach her a lesson', that human rights are left wing whimsy and that muslim women have no aspirations beyond subserviance to the dominant males please carry on. I am sure they 'deserve' to be stoned when they are raped too.

Reading some of the preceding comments its hard not to come to that conclusion.

This is actually one of the worst examples of moral relativity that I've seen - with apparently intelligent people supporting evil ideas that involve the violent abuse and repression of other human beings.

People get bent out of shape about being "personally attacked", but this is far, FAR more offensive. Some of these folks should go out and join a fascist/nationalist movements if they truly, honestly believe these things.

What surprised me most was the usual red-blooded-American crew defending cultural relativism, an unfortunate off-shoot of some pretty leftist thinking about multiculturalism. It's not a bandwagon I'd expect more conservative folk to jump on.

Hey now... I'm not conservative! At least, not "traditionally" conservative, anyway. In many ways, I am very socially liberal. I tend to be more conservative when it comes to fiscal matters and military defense issues, though. In other words, I'm more of a centrist, so I tend to piss off both the Democrats and the Republicans. All in all, I figure I have to be doing something right if neither group can "claim" me as one of their own.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Hmmm... as objectionable as this silly social-moral law is, when I read people defending it as some sort of cultural idiosyncracy - there's no distinction made between the law and the methods of enforcement.

The parallel in my mind is public indecency - if a person were to walk around naked over here, all that would happen is that they would be arrested and taken to jail. In the process the person wouldn't be harrassed, threatened and generally abused.

Are we really saying that values are so relative that this kind of treatment is culturally acceptable.

[GaryC 7]

Hmmm... as objectionable as this silly social-moral law is, when I read people defending it as some sort of cultural idiosyncracy - there's no distinction made between the law and the methods of enforcement.

The parallel in my mind is public indecency - if a person were to walk around naked over here, all that would happen is that they would be arrested and taken to jail. In the process the person wouldn't be harrassed, threatened and generally abused.

Are we really saying that values are so relative that this kind of treatment is culturally acceptable.

I doubt if anyone here is really defending it, least of all me, but since I am lazy and haven't waded through all the posts that is just an assumption on my part. I think the point is that the woman knew the rules and expected that they should not apply to her. That was her real error. If your in a country that has harsh laws that we find objectionable those rules still need to be followed regardless. Having said that I want to state for the record that I find the sex segregation laws of the ME very objectionable and I don't understand how they can justify them.

[DeadPoolX 9]

Hmmm... as objectionable as this silly social-moral law is, when I read people defending it as some sort of cultural idiosyncracy - there's no distinction made between the law and the methods of enforcement.

The parallel in my mind is public indecency - if a person were to walk around naked over here, all that would happen is that they would be arrested and taken to jail. In the process the person wouldn't be harrassed, threatened and generally abused.

Are we really saying that values are so relative that this kind of treatment is culturally acceptable.

While I can't speak for anyone else, I don't personally approve of many of the laws -- civil or religious -- in the Middle East. As much as I might like to see them changed, it's not my place to do so.

The only people who can make change happen are those living there in the Middle East and they have to want it themselves. Otherwise, they will resist our efforts and view our actions as some sort of "Western Imperialist Takeover" of their lifestyle.

So it doesn't really matter whether or not any of us in the West happen to personally approve of Middle Eastern practices. As much as we shout, urge, provoke, push, pull, poke, prod, and whatever else... at the end of the day, it's still up to them.

[Trompe le Monde 1,107]

I don't approve of the law one iota. But Westerns often do think the laws and cultural customs of Middle East don't apply to them when they are there. I was merely commenting on that - I have no idea if this women was one of the (though I suspect she was expecting to be treated differently).

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

The last line of the article is interesting.

Her story has received rare coverage in Saudi Arabia, where the press has been sharply critical of the police.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Hmmm... as objectionable as this silly social-moral law is, when I read people defending it as some sort of cultural idiosyncracy - there's no distinction made between the law and the methods of enforcement.

The parallel in my mind is public indecency - if a person were to walk around naked over here, all that would happen is that they would be arrested and taken to jail. In the process the person wouldn't be harrassed, threatened and generally abused.

Are we really saying that values are so relative that this kind of treatment is culturally acceptable.

While I can't speak for anyone else, I don't personally approve of many of the laws -- civil or religious -- in the Middle East. As much as I might like to see them changed, it's not my place to do so.

The only people who can make change happen are those living there in the Middle East and they have to want it themselves. Otherwise, they will resist our efforts and view our actions as some sort of "Western Imperialist Takeover" of their lifestyle.

So it doesn't really matter whether or not any of us in the West happen to personally approve of Middle Eastern practices. As much as we shout, urge, provoke, push, pull, poke, prod, and whatever else... at the end of the day, it's still up to them.

I don't think anyone here is actively working toward changing their laws - just wondering why people can't or won't condemn brutality when they see it.

[wizardfitz 13]

similar thing happened to my fiancées best friend. she is in Doha. and was riding in a car with her brother when the were stopped by the police. luckily it didn't go that far

[GaryC 7]

similar thing happened to my fiancées best friend. she is in Doha. and was riding in a car with her brother when the were stopped by the police. luckily it didn't go that far

Riding in a car with her brother would be OK there BTW. It's prolly why it didn't "go that far".