home visits

[Beauty for Ashes 257]

What kind of records are kept for Islamic marriages?

it depends jenn... unless it is a legal marriage with papers in Algeria,none. its when the spouses decided to legitamise their marriage in the courthouse that people find out about it.

with shias , they can muta and marry for a day or a week. some sunnis do a quazi muta ( the so called egyptian pleasure marriages)

An islamic marriage contract is supposed to have a contract and a maher.. When you legally marry in tunisia, they do kind of an islamic contract with witnesses and a dowry and a split of assets...

But the reality is that a guy married to an american can go back home,islamically marry someone else, get her pregnant and go back to the usa and no one is the wiser. Unless he registers the marriage with the city hall, a fatiha is an imam and 2 witnesses and thats it...

[Jenn! 918]

What kind of records are kept for Islamic marriages?

it depends jenn... unless it is a legal marriage with papers in Algeria,none. its when the spouses decided to legitamise their marriage in the courthouse that people find out about it.

with shias , they can muta and marry for a day or a week. some sunnis do a quazi muta ( the so called egyptian pleasure marriages)

An islamic marriage contract is supposed to have a contract and a maher.. When you legally marry in tunisia, they do kind of an islamic contract with witnesses and a dowry and a split of assets...

But the reality is that a guy married to an american can go back home,islamically marry someone else, get her pregnant and go back to the usa and no one is the wiser. Unless he registers the marriage with the city hall, a fatiha is an imam and 2 witnesses and thats it...

Well, I suppose the consulate is not in the business of verifying that the beneficiary does not have any other "unregistered" wives. It is multiple legal wives that would make them ineligible for a visa. Unfortunate though for any woman who gets caught up in this sort of thing.

[Beauty for Ashes 257]

What kind of records are kept for Islamic marriages?

it depends jenn... unless it is a legal marriage with papers in Algeria,none. its when the spouses decided to legitamise their marriage in the courthouse that people find out about it.

with shias , they can muta and marry for a day or a week. some sunnis do a quazi muta ( the so called egyptian pleasure marriages)

An islamic marriage contract is supposed to have a contract and a maher.. When you legally marry in tunisia, they do kind of an islamic contract with witnesses and a dowry and a split of assets...

But the reality is that a guy married to an american can go back home,islamically marry someone else, get her pregnant and go back to the usa and no one is the wiser. Unless he registers the marriage with the city hall, a fatiha is an imam and 2 witnesses and thats it...

Well, I suppose the consulate is not in the business of verifying that the beneficiary does not have any other "unregistered" wives. It is multiple legal wives that would make them ineligible for a visa. Unfortunate though for any woman who gets caught up in this sort of thing.

Its often when the "american wife" is getting left that she finds out that there is someone back home he "married" on one of trips back. this is not common when the guy is a greencard holder. It happens much more frequently when he already has his citizenship and is in a position to petition his new spouse. I have a friend this happened to ( married 7 years ) and she finds out after the divorce that he "married " someone before they even got legally divorced in Morocco. Then a year later the new wife was here in Florida with him, needless to say the american was Pissed...

This is why you cannot just go on what people say. you need to have intimate knowledege of the cultural norms and do not think you are exempt from them.... that way you can really get a feel for what is going on... What people say to you and what is actually going on are two completely different things..... I never ever ever take what anyone says in Algeria to me for granted.

When I told some of my Moroccan friends I was pregnant they STILL question my husbands motives for being with me and state even pregnancy is no guarantee the marriage is legit. AND These are north africans saying this... They know each other and how they think and the only saving grace for me is that i have a long standing and very strong relation with algerian culture that trancends my marriage and lots of true friends there and from his culture that build me up despite my numerous inadequacies ( age, divorce, kids, etc)

[MaryandMian 1]

I also think home visits are a way of checking that your husband/fiance does not have another wife and kids... especially its not formal marriage between them

Interesting point. I never thought of that one. I mean what if he did have another wife, or even three other wives? It's accepted in Egypt and legal but what would they do, even if the petitioner knew about it and was ok with it? (totally NOT my situation btw. lol. )

If the marriage is recognized in the U.S., then the beneficiary would be ineligible for a visa as polygyny is unlawful in the U.S.

Even if the first marriage (or second or third) wasn't in the US? I know I'm getting technical but this has always made me wonder...if the Egyptian had not married the previous wives at the Ministry of Justice then the marriage(s) are not recognized by the US, which would mean the polygamy factor wouldn't be a factor right? Maybe this is too legal for this board but it fascinates me. The way people who practice polygamy in the US get around it is by not registring the marriage and instead only having a mosque thing instead.

Wasn't there someone with a fiance from Pakistan a year or so ago that found out her fiance was married after the embassy did some checking? How horrible!

Yes Amy there have been more than one case where the Pakistani male had hidden a marriage and children from the USC. Some have been K1s and even a few were K3/CR 1.

[sarahaziz 0]

I know we've gone over this before but I'm lost as to what the purpose of the home visits are? Seems like it's a normal step these days in cases from Egypt who are in long Administrative Processing cycles. What exactly do these visits prove? Anyone?

My husband had his home visit a few weeks ago. The man asked the surrounding neighbors if they knew he was married "from a foreign one" and if he really lived there.

What does that prove in terms of our marriage? My next door neighbors know nothing of my life, why should his?

And for the ones that actually have their families interviewed normally the question is, how do you feel about the marriage. . . . What does that have to do with anything? So if the family dislikes the new bride the visa is a no-go?

Someone please explain this part of our journey to us because it is making NO sense whatsoever to me. Seems like a flippin' waste of time in terms of what they discover to prove the relationship.

Oh and while I'm at it...what about cases like cheryl who already had a home visit and had ANOTHER one a long time after? What did THAT prove?

Well marrying in egypt or any other foreign country you just have to respect how they do things. In arab customs the immediate family has to approve of the bride usually because of family respect. They want to make sure she will keep respect to the family name thats what our "happy family" motto is. They dont want to accept americans marrying with egyptians they just dont like it same as americans marrying with indians. They like their own culture matched up with another person with same heritage and beliefs. It's not my personal opinion, im just stating the mentality behind it all. Neighbors usually are long line relatives if you are from the village or small city.

Are you sure Sarah? because that s not exactly what i saw. The mom and dad have to. If they dont, drama insues until A they calm down or B the couple breaks up. I do not know exactly where all these villiagers are that you are talking about. Most Algerians I saw were not too upset if their child married outside of the culture. the conflict came into play when it was perhaps determined that this was a real marriage and not getting papers to improve their life... What the heck did they all say about you being christian? How are you christian anyway? Is your mom european or american?

My spouses family is old time friends with my family from my Ima. All my algerian family members in France they are christian and 2 uncles (brothers) are christians in Constantine maybe you know the church there i think you might know where i'm talking about maybe? Both of my parents are algerian and naturalized. They had visa papers soo easy back then my dad came here within 3 months !!!! I didn't want anybody to know we are dating until i was sure i want to marry him so when my MIL heard "his future wife" was from america she thought he had a "typical blonde haired woman" (no offense to any) and she said dont bring her here because i dont accept her as my daughter. His family didn't want any french or american He told her it was me and she was so happy. My father and his mother wanted us to marry from the beginning before we started dating so i guess she didn't care that i was christian. My father is muslim and my mother is christian i get the christianity from her. Maybe you can't understand the mentality because its a old fashioned set of thinking. Now days maybe they will accept but sometimes they are not happy. Sometimes they wanted that same typical wife to speak full arabic, not to have so much education, etc...I don't want to offend anyone but this is the true mentality if you ask any mother or father there. Sometimes you will come across one family who only cares for the sons or daughters happiness. I personally I would want my child to marry in Algeria.

[Jenn! 918]

Maybe you can't understand the mentality because its a old fashioned set of thinking. Now days maybe they will accept but sometimes they are not happy. Sometimes they wanted that same typical wife to speak full arabic, not to have so much education, etc...I don't want to offend anyone but this is the true mentality if you ask any mother or father there. Sometimes you will come across one family who only cares for the sons or daughters happiness. I personally I would want my child to marry in Algeria.

I don't think this is limited to Algerian (or MENA) thinking. We've heard many a story right here of how American families sometimes have a hard time accepting the foreign spouse. It's always hoped that they come to love you as they get to know you and see how you treat their child.

[sarahaziz 0]

I also think home visits are a way of checking that your husband/fiance does not have another wife and kids... especially its not formal marriage between them

Interesting point. I never thought of that one. I mean what if he did have another wife, or even three other wives? It's accepted in Egypt and legal but what would they do, even if the petitioner knew about it and was ok with it? (totally NOT my situation btw. lol. )

If the marriage is recognized in the U.S., then the beneficiary would be ineligible for a visa as polygyny is unlawful in the U.S.

Even if the first marriage (or second or third) wasn't in the US? I know I'm getting technical but this has always made me wonder...if the Egyptian had not married the previous wives at the Ministry of Justice then the marriage(s) are not recognized by the US, which would mean the polygamy factor wouldn't be a factor right? Maybe this is too legal for this board but it fascinates me. The way people who practice polygamy in the US get around it is by not registring the marriage and instead only having a mosque thing instead.

Wasn't there someone with a fiance from Pakistan a year or so ago that found out her fiance was married after the embassy did some checking? How horrible!

Yes Amy there have been more than one case where the Pakistani male had hidden a marriage and children from the USC. Some have been K1s and even a few were K3/CR 1.

me also i was scared of my algerian spouse if he had a wife or kids in tunisia or morrocco that i didnt know about. Young women in the age 17-20 wheeeww we have to watch out for older men who might have other wives and children and theyre taking us as a mistress or a new wife to leave their old life.

Maybe you can't understand the mentality because its a old fashioned set of thinking. Now days maybe they will accept but sometimes they are not happy. Sometimes they wanted that same typical wife to speak full arabic, not to have so much education, etc...I don't want to offend anyone but this is the true mentality if you ask any mother or father there. Sometimes you will come across one family who only cares for the sons or daughters happiness. I personally I would want my child to marry in Algeria.

I don't think this is limited to Algerian (or MENA) thinking. We've heard many a story right here of how American families sometimes have a hard time accepting the foreign spouse. It's always hoped that they come to love you as they get to know you and see how you treat their child.

You are so right

[doodlebugg 10]

I also think home visits are a way of checking that your husband/fiance does not have another wife and kids... especially its not formal marriage between them

Interesting point. I never thought of that one. I mean what if he did have another wife, or even three other wives? It's accepted in Egypt and legal but what would they do, even if the petitioner knew about it and was ok with it? (totally NOT my situation btw. lol. )

If the marriage is recognized in the U.S., then the beneficiary would be ineligible for a visa as polygyny is unlawful in the U.S.

Even if the first marriage (or second or third) wasn't in the US? I know I'm getting technical but this has always made me wonder...if the Egyptian had not married the previous wives at the Ministry of Justice then the marriage(s) are not recognized by the US, which would mean the polygamy factor wouldn't be a factor right? Maybe this is too legal for this board but it fascinates me. The way people who practice polygamy in the US get around it is by not registring the marriage and instead only having a mosque thing instead.

If the marriage isn't recognized in the U.S., then I don't see how having multiple wives (Islamically only) would make one ineligible for a visa. In fact, I'm sure it happens all the time - many times probably without the USC wife's knowledge.

That's why they require the certificate of celibacy or soemthing like that (can't remember the exact name) before the interview. It must state that they are not married to be eligible for the visa. The only way around it would be if he was married Islamically but not legally. From what I understand it is frowned upon to do it this way as it usually hurts the woman in the long run (there are islamic reasons too, but I can't quote them now or look them us since I'm at work) It does happen though.

That certificate of celibacy makes me laugh though. How can anyone really prove that? Yeah they can prove they are single, but that they are celibate?

Is this a K-1 thing? My husband didn't have to submit a certificate of celibacy at all.

[ya falaha! 0]

^^^I think it's more a Morocco thing. Egypt doesn't require a cert. of celibacy.

[doodlebugg 10]

I'm just thinking it's a good thing they didn't do a home visit for our visa bc we would have been denied

His father still doesn't know and I'm not really sure about his mother (she's out of it bc of stress and the complications with the father). The rest of the family knows but not all of them have met me, only 5 or 6 (I was only there 4 days with very little warning). All of his friends knew he talked to a sweetheart everyday, and knew I wasn't Egyptian, but were very confused about where I came from (we talked in French and sometimes English or Arabic, so they thought I was in Europe but weren't sure where). He wasn't very upfront about it bc he was worried he wouldn't get it and dodged around the questions alot, which is very hard to do in that culture . They all knew he had applied for a visa, they all knew he was going to leave eventually, but that is about all the information his neighbors would have been able to give. A few, but a very few, knew about him recieving things from the US consulate, but not that it was for a fiance visa. Aparently there was a rumor going around that he was married and that's why he always answered my calls, but he just didn't respond to those types of questions. *shrug* I think the home visit is a pretty sh!tty way of making a decission like that.

How exactly did you get a visa with no ap when his parents do not even know about you and there are people here on ap who s whole family including the parents knows about the wife. This did not even set off alarm bells in your head at all? Egypt makes no sense to me. They give people who know the family ap and you , who have no relationship with his mom and dad sail through. tamara loves adam...the same age...and a real love story languised months and months...i just dont understand this stupid consular system and i could not remotely dream of having to deal with egypt ... It just seems weird to me.. Oh well...i guess they have their reasons. They probably figured since you met him in france that it was more of a legitamate relationship because you met him outside of egypt

That is exactly right. If you are going through Egypt and you met online you're sol and you will get a home visit and a long azz ap UNLESS you have special circumstances like you've lived in Egypt before or you are Egyptian, etc. As for insinuating that polar's story isn't a "real" love story...I don't think the length of AP is remotely related to the quality of the love story.

But back to Polar's experience...that's kind of my point. Here is a couple who's neighbors/family know nothing practically of their marriage and yet they sailed through so what does exactly the home visit prove? IMHO you either visit EVERYONE or NO ONE. I know I revoked all rights when I petitioned for someone to come to the US but it's really rubbing me the wrong way how our privacy is invaded time and time again. Big Brother lookin' out for my marriage to see if it's an ok one just makes me wanna puke,...and yes I know it's more to protect the gov't than me but until you're in this situation and have gone through what we are going through it's very hard to feel the creepy crawly invasive feeling it gives you. I mean they might as well have just assigned someone to stay in our bed and watch our reactions for Pete's sakes.

[Chootie 0]

I live in Egypt with my husband. We don't know our neighbors and they don't know us. I'm sure some of them have seen me and of course see that I am foreign. But what could they say except, "yes, I have seen a foreign woman in that apartment. We live in my husband's new apartment which is not in the area of his mother and father. So again, this is not my husband's old neighborhood. A home study here wouldn't do a lot good in my opinion. The doorman and his wife and children could say "yes, I have seen her." Big deal.

When I return to the states (soon) to plan the deliver of our first child, my husband will return to stay with his mother and father. The people in that building probably have never seen me.

Of course, his family knows me very well. I see them all the time.

We didn't have a big, horn honking wedding in Egypt due to the US restrictions. We married outside of Egypt so we didn't have the big wedding parade which is famous in Egypt. I imagine the whole apartment building knows that there is a foreign woman living among them because Yes, the Egyptians like to gossip.

So, what exactly would a home study prove about our marriage? In my opinion, nothing. It would be a waste of their time, money and energy. That's my two cents on the subject. I'm glad to know that it is a possibility. I'll inform my husband and the family of this possibility just so they don't freak out and think they are in trouble or something. People here are definitely afraid of the police.

[sandinista! 1,816]

I agree.

Yes, Egypt is like Morocco in that way. You can't even pass gas without the neighbors knowing about it there. Really invasive society. Personally, that would drive me insane.

I think they're seeing if someone is going to slip up and give some sort of indication that the marriage is only for papers. I don't know if Egypt is like Morocco in this way, but it seems like neighbors know each other's business much more so than here.

OMG......

This is soooo true! My husband is amazed at how no one here really cares about stupid things like they do there. I think it is because there is no work giving each other too much time to "entertain" themselves with other peoples lives. What a freaking waste of time.

how very, very false, and ethnocentric.

[doodlebugg 10]

I live in Egypt with my husband. We don't know our neighbors and they don't know us. I'm sure some of them have seen me and of course see that I am foreign. But what could they say except, "yes, I have seen a foreign woman in that apartment. We live in my husband's new apartment which is not in the area of his mother and father. So again, this is not my husband's old neighborhood. A home study here wouldn't do a lot good in my opinion. The doorman and his wife and children could say "yes, I have seen her." Big deal.

When I return to the states (soon) to plan the deliver of our first child, my husband will return to stay with his mother and father. The people in that building probably have never seen me.

Of course, his family knows me very well. I see them all the time.

We didn't have a big, horn honking wedding in Egypt due to the US restrictions. We married outside of Egypt so we didn't have the big wedding parade which is famous in Egypt. I imagine the whole apartment building knows that there is a foreign woman living among them because Yes, the Egyptians like to gossip.

So, what exactly would a home study prove about our marriage? In my opinion, nothing. It would be a waste of their time, money and energy. That's my two cents on the subject. I'm glad to know that it is a possibility. I'll inform my husband and the family of this possibility just so they don't freak out and think they are in trouble or something. People here are definitely afraid of the police.

Good luck on your birth!!!!!

[chaishai 1]

What kind of records are kept for Islamic marriages?

it depends jenn... unless it is a legal marriage with papers in Algeria,none. its when the spouses decided to legitamise their marriage in the courthouse that people find out about it.

with shias , they can muta and marry for a day or a week. some sunnis do a quazi muta ( the so called egyptian pleasure marriages)

An islamic marriage contract is supposed to have a contract and a maher.. When you legally marry in tunisia, they do kind of an islamic contract with witnesses and a dowry and a split of assets...

But the reality is that a guy married to an american can go back home,islamically marry someone else, get her pregnant and go back to the usa and no one is the wiser. Unless he registers the marriage with the city hall, a fatiha is an imam and 2 witnesses and thats it...

Well, I suppose the consulate is not in the business of verifying that the beneficiary does not have any other "unregistered" wives. It is multiple legal wives that would make them ineligible for a visa. Unfortunate though for any woman who gets caught up in this sort of thing.

Its often when the "american wife" is getting left that she finds out that there is someone back home he "married" on one of trips back. this is not common when the guy is a greencard holder. It happens much more frequently when he already has his citizenship and is in a position to petition his new spouse. I have a friend this happened to ( married 7 years ) and she finds out after the divorce that he "married " someone before they even got legally divorced in Morocco. Then a year later the new wife was here in Florida with him, needless to say the american was Pissed...

This is why you cannot just go on what people say. you need to have intimate knowledege of the cultural norms and do not think you are exempt from them.... that way you can really get a feel for what is going on... What people say to you and what is actually going on are two completely different things..... I never ever ever take what anyone says in Algeria to me for granted.

When I told some of my Moroccan friends I was pregnant they STILL question my husbands motives for being with me and state even pregnancy is no guarantee the marriage is legit. AND These are north africans saying this... They know each other and how they think and the only saving grace for me is that i have a long standing and very strong relation with algerian culture that trancends my marriage and lots of true friends there and from his culture that build me up despite my numerous inadequacies ( age, divorce, kids, etc)

I agree that babies arent the proof that a relationship is valid. I know a woman who got a guy a greencard, had two of his kids and he left her eventually and said that he married her for papers. He would go back to his home country and cheat on her like mad. I think if a person is deceitful, having kids doesnt make them a good person.

[chaishai 1]

Maybe you can't understand the mentality because its a old fashioned set of thinking. Now days maybe they will accept but sometimes they are not happy. Sometimes they wanted that same typical wife to speak full arabic, not to have so much education, etc...I don't want to offend anyone but this is the true mentality if you ask any mother or father there. Sometimes you will come across one family who only cares for the sons or daughters happiness. I personally I would want my child to marry in Algeria.

I don't think this is limited to Algerian (or MENA) thinking. We've heard many a story right here of how American families sometimes have a hard time accepting the foreign spouse. It's always hoped that they come to love you as they get to know you and see how you treat their child.

One of our israeli friends (who was born in the US - israeli parents) is dating an american girl, shes perfectly nice and going through the conversion (to judaism) process. Orthodox conversion at that. His parents will not accept her and will not come to the wedding! (as of now) They are pissed because she isnt israeli or at least jewish from birth. I sure hope they come around.

My mother probably would be not accepting if I was a lesbian, or married another race. Its really sad. I will be happy with whoever my children marry (as long as they are good peeps)