Open letter to George W Bush

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

I suppose you think they were better off with Hussen. And if we just are "nice" to the terrorist they will just leave us alone?

You're wasting your breath and your time with this bunch........They believe that democracy is something that they have and will never lose. It's just something they've always had and most won't bother to defend, voluntarily.

It's just something they can use in the abstract to thumb their noses at, in that lofty pontificating and snooty way, to denigrate those that actually have the back-bone to do what they themselves don't care to do; make the world a safer place for a democratic peoples.

They ride high on mouthing moral platitudes by giving hope to our enemy and thereby extending the war.

They have a naivete that sometimes is frightening. They believe that we (the people of this country) can just ignore the bad guys and they'll go away.

Pretty dumb, and some are just pretty damn young, these folks in this forum.....

I am enjoying your posts GaryC, but there are a few malcontents here that are just plain....er well keep up the good work.

Make note - its at this point that the arguments turned personal.

Again I don't see how what we did in Iraq has anything to do with 'spreading democracy'. That would represent quite a change from the foreign policy the US has engaged in the past. Vietnam, Korea, Iraq 1 + 2 - these were all good vs. evil struggles to spread western freedoms and philosophical enlightenment?

What you seem to see as some sort of new 'grand cause' is in fact business as usual, albeit with the ace-card of 9/11, used in the most tasteless possible way to back up the exact same imperialist bullshit that caused most of the problems in the middle-east to begin with.

Again I ask why is it successive administrations were prepared to tolerate a butcher, sell him huge quantities of weapons which he used (with our support) to start a war that killed over a million people?

Its only when he went after Kuwaiti oil that he became our enemy. Unfortunately the waters of the argument have become so muddied that a lot of people seem to think that Iraq actually has something to do with the war on terror. It doesn't - but its certainly a convenient fiction to believe so.

[Fuzzness 2]

how many of you actually realize that the US is not a democracy? I find that very interesting when someone uses the argument of "spreading democracy" for an excuse to start a war.

and here I thought I wasn't going to comment anymore

[kaydee457 13]

I suppose you think they were better off with Hussen. And if we just are "nice" to the terrorist they will just leave us alone?

You're wasting your breath and your time with this bunch........They believe that democracy is something that they have and will never lose. It's just something they've always had and most won't bother to defend, voluntarily.

It's just something they can use in the abstract to thumb their noses at, in that lofty pontificating and snooty way, to denigrate those that actually have the back-bone to do what they themselves don't care to do; make the world a safer place for a democratic peoples.

They ride high on mouthing moral platitudes by giving hope to our enemy and thereby extending the war.

They have a naivete that sometimes is frightening. They believe that we (the people of this country) can just ignore the bad guys and they'll go away.

Pretty dumb, and some are just pretty damn young, these folks in this forum.....

I am enjoying your posts GaryC, but there are a few malcontents here that are just plain....er well keep up the good work.

Make note - its at this point that the arguments turned personal.

Again I don't see how what we did in Iraq has anything to do with 'spreading democracy'. That would represent quite a change from the foreign policy the US has engaged in the past. Vietnam, Korea, Iraq 1 + 2 - these were all good vs. evil struggles to spread western freedoms and philosophical enlightenment?

What you seem to see as some sort of new 'grand cause' is in fact business as usual, albeit with the ace-card of 9/11, used in the most tasteless possible way to back up the exact same imperialist bullshit that caused most of the problems in the middle-east to begin with.

Again I ask why is it successive administrations were prepared to tolerate a butcher, sell him huge quantities of weapons which he used (with our support) to start a war that killed over a million people?

Its only when he went after Kuwaiti oil that he became our enemy. Unfortunately the waters of the argument have become so muddied that a lot of people seem to think that Iraq actually has something to do with the war on terror. It doesn't - but its certainly a convenient fiction to believe so.

Fishdude- your answer's in my previous posting. Look hard and you shall find it.

[PsychoKat 0]

I suppose you think they were better off with Hussen. And if we just are "nice" to the terrorist they will just leave us alone?

You're wasting your breath and your time with this bunch........They believe that democracy is something that they have and will never lose. It's just something they've always had and most won't bother to defend, voluntarily.

It's just something they can use in the abstract to thumb their noses at, in that lofty pontificating and snooty way, to denigrate those that actually have the back-bone to do what they themselves don't care to do; make the world a safer place for a democratic peoples.

They ride high on mouthing moral platitudes by giving hope to our enemy and thereby extending the war.

They have a naivete that sometimes is frightening. They believe that we (the people of this country) can just ignore the bad guys and they'll go away.

Pretty dumb, and some are just pretty damn young, these folks in this forum.....

I am enjoying your posts GaryC, but there are a few malcontents here that are just plain....er well keep up the good work.

My concern is when I look at the BIG picture not just the picture as viewed from the US and I find it very frightening to say the least.

BTW I'm definitely not young or naive. I nearly lost my cousin in vietnam, my father was army, my uncle and two of my cousins are career air force. My Uncle that is career air force was one of those people that go in and clean up after the bombs. I'm definitely NOT naive.

When I look at what is going on this is what I see looking from all aspects not just from the US aspect.

We invaded Iraq because we believed (or were told) they have WMD

WE have WMD AND have been known to USE them in the past at Hiroshima and Nagasaki

We were stirred by claims Hussein had ties to the same terrorist organization responsible for 9/11 and the deaths of over 3000 innocents at their hands

The initial air attack in Iraq was called "Shock and Awe" the intent of which was to strike fear into the hearts of "our enemies" (in the US we called it terrorism when they tried to strike fear into our hearts) Additionally in December Bush stated that over 30,000 civilians have been killed in Iraq in this campaign. That's 10 times as many as we lost in 9/11

We are now claiming that it was to better the lives of the Iraqi people and free them from a horrible regime, but they didn't ask to be freed.

I don't want someone else armed with those beliefs to come free me from our government.

Now it appears we are going to end up in a war against Iran...because they might end up with nuclear weapons and if they do we're afraid they might use them.

WE have nuclear weapons and HAVE USED THEM

EVERY bit of reasoning we are using, can be applied to us and backed up with facts by others.

Edited April 26, 2006 by PsychoKat

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

I suppose you think they were better off with Hussen. And if we just are "nice" to the terrorist they will just leave us alone?

You're wasting your breath and your time with this bunch........They believe that democracy is something that they have and will never lose. It's just something they've always had and most won't bother to defend, voluntarily.

It's just something they can use in the abstract to thumb their noses at, in that lofty pontificating and snooty way, to denigrate those that actually have the back-bone to do what they themselves don't care to do; make the world a safer place for a democratic peoples.

They ride high on mouthing moral platitudes by giving hope to our enemy and thereby extending the war.

They have a naivete that sometimes is frightening. They believe that we (the people of this country) can just ignore the bad guys and they'll go away.

Pretty dumb, and some are just pretty damn young, these folks in this forum.....

I am enjoying your posts GaryC, but there are a few malcontents here that are just plain....er well keep up the good work.

Make note - its at this point that the arguments turned personal.

Again I don't see how what we did in Iraq has anything to do with 'spreading democracy'. That would represent quite a change from the foreign policy the US has engaged in the past. Vietnam, Korea, Iraq 1 + 2 - these were all good vs. evil struggles to spread western freedoms and philosophical enlightenment?

What you seem to see as some sort of new 'grand cause' is in fact business as usual, albeit with the ace-card of 9/11, used in the most tasteless possible way to back up the exact same imperialist bullshit that caused most of the problems in the middle-east to begin with.

Again I ask why is it successive administrations were prepared to tolerate a butcher, sell him huge quantities of weapons which he used (with our support) to start a war that killed over a million people?

Its only when he went after Kuwaiti oil that he became our enemy. Unfortunately the waters of the argument have become so muddied that a lot of people seem to think that Iraq actually has something to do with the war on terror. It doesn't - but its certainly a convenient fiction to believe so.

Fishdude- your answer's in my previous posting. Look hard and you shall find it.

With due respect, I don't think I need to read any of your postings twice.

In case you'd forgotten - off-topic threads are for reasoned debate, not for badmouthing the people you don't like.

None of my posts have directed towards you in this thread have been personally derogatory - you might do others the same courteousy.

If you're going to debate, then debate. If you're going out for a personal slanging match, then please feel free to sit on my middle finger

Edited April 26, 2006 by Fishdude

[GaryC 7]

Someone try telling me that these people were better off with Hussein. This is why we went in there.

http://www.usaid.gov/iraq/pdf/iraq_mass_gr...s%20graves'

400,000 dead people, gas attacks on his own people, rape rooms, this is why we did what we did. I am proud of our president. He had the balls to stand up to this murderer. If you think we had no reason to do what we did then tell it to these peoples families.

Edited April 26, 2006 by GaryC

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Someone try telling me that these people were better off with Hussein. This is why we went in there.

http://www.usaid.gov/iraq/pdf/iraq_mass_gr...s%20graves'

But noone has questioned the fact that Saddam was a brutal dictator who is responsible for countless deaths.

The question is - what [/i]specifically makes him any worse than the Kim Jong ils, the Pol Pot's, Idi Amin's and Robert Mugabe's out there?

Why did we specifically target him, as a specific threat to US national security when no concrete (or anything approaching concrete) evidence was presented that this was the case?

As I said, the US tolerated and continues to tolerate dictators with the full knowledge of what they are doing to their own people. Saddam, became our enemy when he went after Kuwaiti oil and threatened the lucrative relationship between the US and Saudi Arabia.

What is it about this 'war on terror' that is so different than what the US has done in the past? Its simply imperialism by another name - with a national tragedy shamefully used to justify it.

Someone try telling me that these people were better off with Hussein. This is why we went in there.

http://www.usaid.gov/iraq/pdf/iraq_mass_gr...s%20graves'

400,000 dead people, gas attacks on his own people, rape rooms, this is why we did what we did. I am proud of our president. He had the balls to stand up to this murderer. If you think we had no reason to do what we did then tell it to these peoples families.

Then why did his dad and his dad's former boss sell him huge quantities of conventional and yes, chemical weapons which he turned around and used on Iran? A million + dead there...

They knew exactly what type of guy this was, where was our national conscience then?

[rebeccajo 14]

Kaydee, nobody else is gonna say it but I will....

You are an ###.

Don't you even think about coming in here and slinging that ####### of yours around.

You talk about being old enough to remember.....do you remember the seven-letter word 'VIETNAM'?

History repeats itself.

And so do morons.

[Fuzzness 2]

[GaryC 7]

Someone try telling me that these people were better off with Hussein. This is why we went in there.

http://www.usaid.gov/iraq/pdf/iraq_mass_gr...s%20graves'

But noone has questioned the fact that Saddam was a brutal dictator who is responsible for countless deaths.

The question is - what [/i]specifically makes him any worse than the Kim Jong ils, the Pol Pot's, Idi Amin's and Robert Mugabe's out there?

Why did we specifically target him, as a specific threat to US national security when no concrete (or anything approaching concrete) evidence was presented that this was the case?

As I said, the US tolerated and continues to tolerate dictators with the full knowledge of what they are doing to their own people. Saddam, became our enemy when he went after Kuwaiti oil and threatened the lucrative relationship between the US and Saudi Arabia.

What is it about this 'war on terror' that is so different than what the US has done in the past? Its simply imperialism by another name - with a national tragedy shamefully used to justify it.

Someone try telling me that these people were better off with Hussein. This is why we went in there.

http://www.usaid.gov/iraq/pdf/iraq_mass_gr...s%20graves'

400,000 dead people, gas attacks on his own people, rape rooms, this is why we did what we did. I am proud of our president. He had the balls to stand up to this murderer. If you think we had no reason to do what we did then tell it to these peoples families.

Then why did his dad and his dad's former boss sell him huge quantities of conventional and yes, chemical weapons which he turned around and used on Iran? A million + dead there...

They knew exactly what type of guy this was, where was our national conscience then?

Oh well, I can see there is no use in argueing with you. I only hope that the freedom that you enjoy now is always with you. People had to take a stand after 9/11. Bush did that. If you think that he was wrong then that is your freedom to do. Thank a vet for that. I for one am proud that we did what we did. I would be for it if we had to do it all over again even knowing the outcome. Freedom is never cheap. It is paid for with blood and treasure. Hiding your head in the sand and pretending that all is well or hoping that someone else will do the dirty work for you will only get you what the Iraqi people got. I wish you well and may God bless you.

[pax 0]

At least six cliches in one post--good one!

[rebeccajo 14]

People had to take a stand after 9/11.

And Bin Laden was in Afghanistan. Not Iraq.

[GaryC 7]

People had to take a stand after 9/11.

And Bin Laden was in Afghanistan. Not Iraq.

Al-Qaida is everywhere. We have to go where they are. Right now they are in Iraq so that is where we need to be. I would prefer to fight them there than on our own streets.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Oh well, I can see there is no use in argueing with you. I only hope that the freedom that you enjoy now is always with you. People had to take a stand after 9/11. Bush did that. If you think that he was wrong then that is your freedom to do. Thank a vet for that. I for one am proud that we did what we did. I would be for it if we had to do it all over again even knowing the outcome. Freedom is never cheap. It is paid for with blood and treasure. Hiding your head in the sand and pretending that all is well or hoping that someone else will do the dirty work for you will only get you what the Iraqi people got. I wish you well and may God bless you.

As I said, why is this different from ANY of the other imperialist foreign policy actions taken by previous US administrations after WW2?

What specifically did 9/11 change for you that makes you think 'liberating Iraq' was some sort of holy crusade to promote democracy.

The middle-east and many of the other trouble spots in the world are the way they are as a direct result in foreign imperialist intervention.

If you honestly think that Bush has done a good thing here then it follows that Ronald Reagan and George Bush Sr did a very bad thing in arming Saddam Hussein and setting him up against Iran (a country the US previously tried to 'democratise' by kicking out the president and installing a monarchy). Iran is a islamic theocracy that is due, in no small part to the US.

People had to take a stand after 9/11.

And Bin Laden was in Afghanistan. Not Iraq.

Al-Qaida is everywhere. We have to go where they are. Right now they are in Iraq so that is where we need to be. I would prefer to fight them there than on our own streets.

They weren't in Iraq before we went in there.... at least not to the degree they are right now.

Why do you think Al Qaeda will turn up on your streets?

The odd suicide bomber, does not represent a guerilla invasion.

[GaryC 7]

Oh well, I can see there is no use in argueing with you. I only hope that the freedom that you enjoy now is always with you. People had to take a stand after 9/11. Bush did that. If you think that he was wrong then that is your freedom to do. Thank a vet for that. I for one am proud that we did what we did. I would be for it if we had to do it all over again even knowing the outcome. Freedom is never cheap. It is paid for with blood and treasure. Hiding your head in the sand and pretending that all is well or hoping that someone else will do the dirty work for you will only get you what the Iraqi people got. I wish you well and may God bless you.

As I said, why is this different from ANY of the other imperialist foreign policy actions taken by previous US administrations after WW2?

What specifically did 9/11 change for you that makes you think 'liberating Iraq' was some sort of holy crusade to promote democracy.

The middle-east and many of the other trouble spots in the world are the way they are as a direct result in foreign imperialist intervention.

If you honestly think that Bush has done a good thing here then it follows that Ronald Reagan and George Bush Sr did a very bad thing in arming Saddam Hussein and setting him up against Iran (a country the US previously tried to 'democratise' by kicking out the president and installing a monarchy). Iran is a islamic theocracy that is due, in no small part to the US.

People had to take a stand after 9/11.

And Bin Laden was in Afghanistan. Not Iraq.

Al-Qaida is everywhere. We have to go where they are. Right now they are in Iraq so that is where we need to be. I would prefer to fight them there than on our own streets.

They weren't in Iraq before we went in there.... at least not to the degree they are right now.

Why do you think Al Qaeda will turn up on your streets?

The odd suicide bomber, does not represent a guerilla invasion.

What do you think 9/11 was? The odd suicide bomber????? They have a stated goal to take this fight to us. Don't forget that they declared war on US!!!! If we don't stop them now they WILL be on our streets!!

I am trying not to get personal here and I want a debate on honest veiwpoints but let us not forget that we were attacked!!!!! And they said and have continued to say that they will attack us again!!