Hillary: Those who want to deport illegals are "living in some other universe"

[kaydee457 13]

I see that in most of these posts there's nary a mention of the social cost to us when allowing these unskilled workers, and families into this country.

That's the crux of the problem, peeps! They overburden our social services........

[HAL 9000 96]

Actually we have the H-2A VISA for agricultural workers. Unfortunately there are only about 30,000 people per year on this program. It needs to be much larger, the program needs to be expanded for other types of work, and must be made easier for employers to do. BTW, H-2A workers are covered by wage laws and workers' compensation, which illegals are not.

Yes!

A friend of mine owns a large Pear orchard in Washington state. She hires farm workers for a few months each year. She pays them $18/hour, provides housing, and supplies insurance. A few months of that would be the same as a year's wages in Mexico. If the people would come over on that visa, work, then return, everyone would be happy.

It would be nice if all farmers could actually get that visa instead of being denied repeatedly.

We's got dem minimum wage laws. Bust the businesses that don't want to play neither fair nor maintain a decent standard of living. Which is, according to what these new attrition-based laws say, will happen with the ilegales. Then again, businesses can just pack up and go elsewhere... outsourcing themselves to make a bigger buck where they feel an advantage. Then you've just condemned both ilegales and the lower classes alike. Way to go!

Darn ... all those lawn service workers being outsourced ...

Hey that's what All American heroes are fighting to protect...

[garya505 2]

I see that in most of these posts there's nary a mention of the social cost to us when allowing these unskilled workers, and families into this country.

That's the crux of the problem, peeps! They overburden our social services........

That's the price we pay for having "cheap" lettuce.

[HAL 9000 96]

I see that in most of these posts there's nary a mention of the social cost to us when allowing these unskilled workers, and families into this country.

That's the crux of the problem, peeps! They overburden our social services........

That's the price we pay for having "cheap" lettuce.

Good point, actually. We do not want to pay the cost of our own infrastructure or social programs, BASED on the current distribution of social and economic resources.

[kaydee457 13]

I see that in most of these posts there's nary a mention of the social cost to us when allowing these unskilled workers, and families into this country.

That's the crux of the problem, peeps! They overburden our social services........

That's the price we pay for having "cheap" lettuce.

I should have been more specific. I'm not talking abuout ag workers in the fields as most of them don't settle here.....

I'm talking about the squatters. The families that settle in, and around major cities, send their children to school and clog the emergency rooms.

Migrant ag workers are a fact of life. Most of them don't raise families here as they usually send their money home.

That's another problem in these discusssions. There are "day workers/laborers" and ag workers that don't typically have a family in tow, and then there are the squatters, replete with "anchor babies", that are a drag on everyone.

It seems to me that it's necessary to have a temporary form of worker visa for ag and day laborers, but the squatters are the real problem "undocumented aleins" as they have no intention of leaving.

[HAL 9000 96]

My lab is right across from the adult ER and kitty corner to the children's ER... wait... let me see...

Nope... no illegals in sight!

And these anchor babies you so eloquently mention... according to US Law they are USC. Therefore, since you fail to dignify a fellow human being the due respect they deserve as a human being in favor on Red Blooded American Citizens, then at least afford innocent children the respect they deserve according to your xenophobic view of our nation of immigrants.

So lets see... instead of opening up a pillbox of complaints, we should be focusing on creating solutions to the problems that continue to create the scenarios of Hispanics by the bushel in Forest Preserves you so vehemently abhor and clogged ER you see on a daily basis.

Then again, my sister and brother in law just so happen to be ER doctors in an area that services plenty of farm workers. Lets see what they tell me about how clogged their ERs really are. From what I've been told so far, the clogging comes from our own citizens that don't know how to use preventive medicine.

[natty bumppo 297]

We's got dem minimum wage laws. Bust the businesses that don't want to play neither fair nor maintain a decent standard of living. Which is, according to what these new attrition-based laws say, will happen with the ilegales. Then again, businesses can just pack up and go elsewhere... outsourcing themselves to make a bigger buck where they feel an advantage. Then you've just condemned both ilegales and the lower classes alike. Way to go!

Darn ... all those lawn service workers being outsourced ...

wait ... you will notice all the answers ...

Edited February 2, 2008 by Natty Bumppo

[kaydee457 13]

My lab is right across from the adult ER and kitty corner to the children's ER... wait... let me see...

Nope... no illegals in sight!

And these anchor babies you so eloquently mention... according to US Law they are USC. Therefore, since you fail to dignify a fellow human being the due respect they deserve as a human being in favor on Red Blooded American Citizens, then at least afford innocent children the respect they deserve according to your xenophobic view of our nation of immigrants.

So lets see... instead of opening up a pillbox of complaints, we should be focusing on creating solutions to the problems that continue to create the scenarios of Hispanics by the bushel in Forest Preserves you so vehemently abhor and clogged ER you see on a daily basis.

Then again, my sister and brother in law just so happen to be ER doctors in an area that services plenty of farm workers. Lets see what they tell me about how clogged their ERs really are. From what I've been told so far, the clogging comes from our own citizens that don't know how to use preventive medicine.

I'm sorry but I have difficulty in following your post as the english isn't very good. Perhaps if you repost using smaller words?

A sentence constructed such as the one that follows frankly makes no sense (in english):

"instead of opening up a pillbox of complaints, we should be focusing on creating solutions to the problems that continue to create the scenarios of Hispanics by the bushel in Forest Preserves you so vehemently abhor and clogged ER you see on a daily basis."

Please clarify. Remember, punctuation your friend!

[Sofargone 2]

#######? this is a serious question. why are there some people that are so against unskilled American & legal immigrants having a chance at a job w/o having to except lower wages to compete w/ illegal immigrants? i don't understand it. these laws are being put in place to protect the middle & lower class.

hmm 30min. & not 1 answer to the question

Smoke I dont recall seeing any against what you have posted. the lower wage issues are prevelant in more than a few industries that are directly affect by the flood of illegal immigrants. Just take a gander at the construction industry in the southwest. It is pretty hard for people to compete for a decent living wage when you have employers that skirt the labor laws and pay substandard wages. Now I dont blame those "illegals" as they are just trying to make a living also and their $8hr is like gold to them. But what is happening is alot of people are being brought down to that level as long as wages are stagnant and/or decrease.

Sofargone

[Sofargone 2]

I have a question too. For those that don't support legalization of illegal immigrants, how exactly are we going to round them all up and send them home? I for one am not thrilled about an amnesty but I'm also realistic and don't see how they are going find all these people and send them home. It seems like the longer we take to find a solution to this problem the more out of hand it gets.

JP the main problem with the so called immigration "path to citizenship" programs is those who are here already have absolutely no incentive to start obeying the law. I hope people dont think that these "fines" they keep referring to will actually be collected. Then we absorb them into all kinds of social programs for which they have never paid into SS,Medicare and so on and its quite the drain on a already shaky system.

i would think that those without a crimminal record should be allowed the chance to leave and then apply for and be granted re-entry. Those with crimminal records and/or disease issues should be barred forever. But the problem is they are already here and have no incentive to start obeying now.

Sofargone

[Sofargone 2]

#######? this is a serious question. why are there some people that are so against unskilled American & legal immigrants having a chance at a job w/o having to except lower wages to compete w/ illegal immigrants? i don't understand it. these laws are being put in place to protect the middle & lower class.

hmm 30min. & not 1 answer to the question

Smoke,

i'm not sure there are people against this law. I completely understand your point. I simply think that we are not tackling the root of the problem by simply saying let's get rid of them all... I think the problem goes way beyond the fence. I think the problem lies in american companies exploiting other ppor countries along with corrupt politics in these countries and a broken down immigration system which does not give the people who need to survive a fair chance to come here legally or at least to generate the capital they need to make in their country.

How is it that they are not allowed the chance to survive? Well if anyone ever leaves this country and really takes a momment to see things without blinders they will see american companies and politicians exploiting the riches of these countries. They too see the corruption going on in these countries but they simply cover their eyes since they are benefiting from it.

By the way i am not an anti-american. I am proud to be american but i also need to be realistic and see both sides to comprehend what is really happening. Even with the immigration issue in this country why is it that nothing really has been done? Don't you think that these big companies benefit from having all this illigal immigration? They get to exploit someone who is afraid of saying anything because even if they do get cheated here they are able to live a better life than in their country. The problem lies where it always will.

The love of money is root of all evil..... This is the root of this issue and until someone stops covering their eyes and does something about this, we will continue to have an immigration problem!

Damn I can almost agree with everything you posted here.

Sofargone

[natty bumppo 297]

#######? this is a serious question. why are there some people that are so against unskilled American & legal immigrants having a chance at a job w/o having to except lower wages to compete w/ illegal immigrants? i don't understand it. these laws are being put in place to protect the middle & lower class.

hmm 30min. & not 1 answer to the question

Smoke I dont recall seeing any against what you have posted. the lower wage issues are prevelant in more than a few industries that are directly affect by the flood of illegal immigrants. Just take a gander at the construction industry in the southwest. It is pretty hard for people to compete for a decent living wage when you have employers that skirt the labor laws and pay substandard wages. Now I dont blame those "illegals" as they are just trying to make a living also and their $8hr is like gold to them. But what is happening is alot of people are being brought down to that level as long as wages are stagnant and/or decrease.

Sofargone

Don't blame illegals ?

Ever question why the wages are going down? Who will work for less ?

Hint: if there are no illegals willing to work for less ...

[no name 1]

#######? this is a serious question. why are there some people that are so against unskilled American & legal immigrants having a chance at a job w/o having to except lower wages to compete w/ illegal immigrants? i don't understand it. these laws are being put in place to protect the middle & lower class.

hmm 30min. & not 1 answer to the question

Smoke I dont recall seeing any against what you have posted. the lower wage issues are prevelant in more than a few industries that are directly affect by the flood of illegal immigrants. Just take a gander at the construction industry in the southwest. It is pretty hard for people to compete for a decent living wage when you have employers that skirt the labor laws and pay substandard wages. Now I dont blame those "illegals" as they are just trying to make a living also and their $8hr is like gold to them. But what is happening is alot of people are being brought down to that level as long as wages are stagnant and/or decrease.

Sofargone

Don't blame illegals ?

Ever question why the wages are going down? Who will work for less ?

Hint: if there are no illegals willing to work for less ...

nonsense!

[SMOKE 1,426]

#######? this is a serious question. why are there some people that are so against unskilled American & legal immigrants having a chance at a job w/o having to except lower wages to compete w/ illegal immigrants? i don't understand it. these laws are being put in place to protect the middle & lower class.

hmm 30min. & not 1 answer to the question

Smoke I dont recall seeing any against what you have posted. the lower wage issues are prevelant in more than a few industries that are directly affect by the flood of illegal immigrants. Just take a gander at the construction industry in the southwest. It is pretty hard for people to compete for a decent living wage when you have employers that skirt the labor laws and pay substandard wages. Now I dont blame those "illegals" as they are just trying to make a living also and their $8hr is like gold to them. But what is happening is alot of people are being brought down to that level as long as wages are stagnant and/or decrease.

Sofargone

show me a construction worker that gets paid $8 an hour & i'll show you an illegal not paying taxes on that money. apprentice construction workers (newbies)are paid $9-$11 here in Oklahoma. journeyman workers are roughly $15-$30 or more for scale jobs. (gov't contract, schools, powerplants, etc.) depending on their field..considering the cost of living is usually higher in the SW than it is here. i seriously doubt newbies are being paid $8 to start. but, even if the $8 were accurate it should be going to feed & house people who are suppose to be here. not illegals.

[Sofargone 2]

The only facts you have presented are some basic requirements for various visa's that are available. You are still trying to make the argument that since people cant afford and/or dont want to be on a waiting list that its ok and a valid excuse for them being here illegally.

Do you seriously think that the only reason people come and stay here illegally is because they can't afford a visa or don't want to be on a waiting list???? People spend thousands upon thousands of dollars to come here illegally. It is more expensive to come here illegally than legally, unless you luck into a tourist visa (which the majority of people here illegally would never qualify for). My husband's family (with the exception perhaps of his mother) can never come visit us. Why? They don't have "sufficient ties" to their country, ie they don't have their own high-performing businesses. Sure, they can *apply* for a visa, but they'd never get one. They'd just be throwing out their $100+ dollars. Do you seriously think that they're going to give tourist visas to Mexican farmers? Of course not! Why? Because they are considered very likely to come and not leave. I'm not arguing against this policy; we probably shouldn't be offering tourist visas to thousands upon thousands of people who will probably just overstay their visas.

There aren't visas available for unskilled workers either. You can't get some random Dunkin' Donuts or other place that specializes in hiring people who don't speak english very well to sponsor a bunch of visas for foreigners. Those visas are only for skilled workers. I imagine that some agricultural owners would be happy to sponsor migrant workers, but there isn't really a mechanism for them to do so.

To think that the majority of people who are here illegally had any option to come legally, be it by way of tourist visa or work visa, is completely unrealistic.

What is really unrealistic is your pipe dream of thinking its ok to come to the USA illegally because of the costs involved and/or not being eligible for the proper visa.

Unbelievable you even attempt to argue your point.

Sofargone