Hillary: Those who want to deport illegals are "living in some other universe"

[HAL 9000 96]

#######? this is a serious question. why are there some people that are so against unskilled American & legal immigrants having a chance at a job w/o having to except lower wages to compete w/ illegal immigrants? i don't understand it. these laws are being put in place to protect the middle & lower class.

hmm 30min. & not 1 answer to the question

Smoke,

i'm not sure there are people against this law. I completely understand your point. I simply think that we are not tackling the root of the problem by simply saying let's get rid of them all... I think the problem goes way beyond the fence. I think the problem lies in american companies exploiting other ppor countries along with corrupt politics in these countries and a broken down immigration system which does not give the people who need to survive a fair chance to come here legally or at least to generate the capital they need to make in their country.

How is it that they are not allowed the chance to survive? Well if anyone ever leaves this country and really takes a momment to see things without blinders they will see american companies and politicians exploiting the riches of these countries. They too see the corruption going on in these countries but they simply cover their eyes since they are benefiting from it.

By the way i am not an anti-american. I am proud to be american but i also need to be realistic and see both sides to comprehend what is really happening. Even with the immigration issue in this country why is it that nothing really has been done? Don't you think that these big companies benefit from having all this illigal immigration? They get to exploit someone who is afraid of saying anything because even if they do get cheated here they are able to live a better life than in their country. The problem lies where it always will.

The love of money is root of all evil..... This is the root of this issue and until someone stops covering their eyes and does something about this, we will continue to have an immigration problem!

According to many this is not our problem. Unfortunately, taking a pro-human approach is not American, or feasible enough, for some. Yet building fences that can be bypassed, is somehow a step in the logical direction.

I have a question too. For those that don't support legalization of illegal immigrants, how exactly are we going to round them all up and send them home? I for one am not thrilled about an amnesty but I'm also realistic and don't see how they are going find all these people and send them home. It seems like the longer we take to find a solution to this problem the more out of hand it gets.

we have to start somewhere. & thats what these laws are doing. take the benefits of coming illegally away & they will leave.

as far as funding for the deportation of the ones that stay. complete & total asset seizure of people that aide in illegal immigration. what isn't $$$ auctioning it off will fund much of it.....hell i'll buy some of it.

Where there is gold there will be prospectors.

People will always seek a way to survive. If you do not attack a weed at its root the weed will return.

we have to start somewhere. & thats what these laws are doing. take the benefits of coming illegally away & they will leave.

Now if we can just get on with building that fence...

That's one thing that McCain has realized, that nobody will compromise on the other stuff until the border is secure. Until that happens, everything else is a waste of time and money.

But the only thing the proposed fence will do, is increase sales of metal cutters and shovels. Maybe the fence is just suppose to be economic stimulus.

And the building will probably go to the lowest bidder... with an illegal workforce.

[kerewin21 2]

The only facts you have presented are some basic requirements for various visa's that are available. You are still trying to make the argument that since people cant afford and/or dont want to be on a waiting list that its ok and a valid excuse for them being here illegally.

Do you seriously think that the only reason people come and stay here illegally is because they can't afford a visa or don't want to be on a waiting list???? People spend thousands upon thousands of dollars to come here illegally. It is more expensive to come here illegally than legally, unless you luck into a tourist visa (which the majority of people here illegally would never qualify for). My husband's family (with the exception perhaps of his mother) can never come visit us. Why? They don't have "sufficient ties" to their country, ie they don't have their own high-performing businesses. Sure, they can *apply* for a visa, but they'd never get one. They'd just be throwing out their $100+ dollars. Do you seriously think that they're going to give tourist visas to Mexican farmers? Of course not! Why? Because they are considered very likely to come and not leave. I'm not arguing against this policy; we probably shouldn't be offering tourist visas to thousands upon thousands of people who will probably just overstay their visas.

There aren't visas available for unskilled workers either. You can't get some random Dunkin' Donuts or other place that specializes in hiring people who don't speak english very well to sponsor a bunch of visas for foreigners. Those visas are only for skilled workers. I imagine that some agricultural owners would be happy to sponsor migrant workers, but there isn't really a mechanism for them to do so.

To think that the majority of people who are here illegally had any option to come legally, be it by way of tourist visa or work visa, is completely unrealistic.

[HAL 9000 96]

We's got dem minimum wage laws. Bust the businesses that don't want to play neither fair nor maintain a decent standard of living. Which is, according to what these new attrition-based laws say, will happen with the ilegales. Then again, businesses can just pack up and go elsewhere... outsourcing themselves to make a bigger buck where they feel an advantage. Then you've just condemned both ilegales and the lower classes alike. Way to go!

so you have no answer?

Whining over a lack of reading comp...

That should be answer enough.

The American at least has a chance of upward mobility. Quick! Before his/her job gets outsourced to... [pick your favorite country]

We's got dem?

Anyhow, the biggest offenders - farming, construction & meatpacking plants - can hardly get outsourced.

Yeah, we's got minimum wage laws, thank God.

[HAL 9000 96]

The only facts you have presented are some basic requirements for various visa's that are available. You are still trying to make the argument that since people cant afford and/or dont want to be on a waiting list that its ok and a valid excuse for them being here illegally.

Do you seriously think that the only reason people come and stay here illegally is because they can't afford a visa or don't want to be on a waiting list???? People spend thousands upon thousands of dollars to come here illegally. It is more expensive to come here illegally than legally, unless you luck into a tourist visa (which the majority of people here illegally would never qualify for). My husband's family (with the exception perhaps of his mother) can never come visit us. Why? They don't have "sufficient ties" to their country, ie they don't have their own high-performing businesses. Sure, they can *apply* for a visa, but they'd never get one. They'd just be throwing out their $100+ dollars. Do you seriously think that they're going to give tourist visas to Mexican farmers? Of course not! Why? Because they are considered very likely to come and not leave. I'm not arguing against this policy; we probably shouldn't be offering tourist visas to thousands upon thousands of people who will probably just overstay their visas.

There aren't visas available for unskilled workers either. You can't get some random Dunkin' Donuts or other place that specializes in hiring people who don't speak english very well to sponsor a bunch of visas for foreigners. Those visas are only for skilled workers. I imagine that some agricultural owners would be happy to sponsor migrant workers, but there isn't really a mechanism for them to do so.

To think that the majority of people who are here illegally had any option to come legally, be it by way of tourist visa or work visa, is completely unrealistic.

Heck, one possible argument there is that if we deny visitor status to a farmer overseas then maybe we shouldn't be allowed to sell our farm products overseas as well... Things need to be obviously controlled... but they need to be fair and balanced and I don't mean in a Faux-news sort of way.

[Dan J 277]

We's got dem minimum wage laws. Bust the businesses that don't want to play neither fair nor maintain a decent standard of living. Which is, according to what these new attrition-based laws say, will happen with the ilegales. Then again, businesses can just pack up and go elsewhere... outsourcing themselves to make a bigger buck where they feel an advantage. Then you've just condemned both ilegales and the lower classes alike. Way to go!

so you have no answer?

Whining over a lack of reading comp...

That should be answer enough.

The American at least has a chance of upward mobility. Quick! Before his/her job gets outsourced to... [pick your favorite country]

We's got dem?

Anyhow, the biggest offenders - farming, construction & meatpacking plants - can hardly get outsourced.

Yeah, we's got minimum wage laws, thank God.

Actually, farming and meatpacking can be outsourced. After all, the US supplies grains to a large part of the world thanks to Ag subsidies. Construction can be somewhat. Some homes are actually assembled before being put on the building site.

[no name 1]

We's got dem minimum wage laws. Bust the businesses that don't want to play neither fair nor maintain a decent standard of living. Which is, according to what these new attrition-based laws say, will happen with the ilegales. Then again, businesses can just pack up and go elsewhere... outsourcing themselves to make a bigger buck where they feel an advantage. Then you've just condemned both ilegales and the lower classes alike. Way to go!

so you have no answer?

Whining over a lack of reading comp...

That should be answer enough.

The American at least has a chance of upward mobility. Quick! Before his/her job gets outsourced to... [pick your favorite country]

We's got dem?

Anyhow, the biggest offenders - farming, construction & meatpacking plants - can hardly get outsourced.

Yeah, we's got minimum wage laws, thank God.

Actually, farming and meatpacking can be outsourced. After all, the US supplies grains to a large part of the world thanks to Ag subsidies. Construction can be somewhat. Some homes are actually assembled before being put on the building site.

Some maybe but not all farmland or grazing land will go away. The sheer land mass of America makes that impossible.

And when's the last time you saw a prefab home? Gimme a break.

Edited February 1, 2008 by devilette

[garya505 2]

The only facts you have presented are some basic requirements for various visa's that are available. You are still trying to make the argument that since people cant afford and/or dont want to be on a waiting list that its ok and a valid excuse for them being here illegally.

Do you seriously think that the only reason people come and stay here illegally is because they can't afford a visa or don't want to be on a waiting list???? People spend thousands upon thousands of dollars to come here illegally. It is more expensive to come here illegally than legally, unless you luck into a tourist visa (which the majority of people here illegally would never qualify for). My husband's family (with the exception perhaps of his mother) can never come visit us. Why? They don't have "sufficient ties" to their country, ie they don't have their own high-performing businesses. Sure, they can *apply* for a visa, but they'd never get one. They'd just be throwing out their $100+ dollars. Do you seriously think that they're going to give tourist visas to Mexican farmers? Of course not! Why? Because they are considered very likely to come and not leave. I'm not arguing against this policy; we probably shouldn't be offering tourist visas to thousands upon thousands of people who will probably just overstay their visas.

There aren't visas available for unskilled workers either. You can't get some random Dunkin' Donuts or other place that specializes in hiring people who don't speak english very well to sponsor a bunch of visas for foreigners. Those visas are only for skilled workers. I imagine that some agricultural owners would be happy to sponsor migrant workers, but there isn't really a mechanism for them to do so.

To think that the majority of people who are here illegally had any option to come legally, be it by way of tourist visa or work visa, is completely unrealistic.

Actually we have the H-2A VISA for agricultural workers. Unfortunately there are only about 30,000 people per year on this program. It needs to be much larger, the program needs to be expanded for other types of work, and must be made easier for employers to do. BTW, H-2A workers are covered by wage laws and workers' compensation, which illegals are not.

[PlatyPius 5]

we have to start somewhere. & thats what these laws are doing. take the benefits of coming illegally away & they will leave.

Now if we can just get on with building that fence...

That's one thing that McCain has realized, that nobody will compromise on the other stuff until the border is secure. Until that happens, everything else is a waste of time and money.

Exactly.

It's like in San Francisco...they were surprised that their homeless population was growing rather than shrinking after they started giving homeless people checks.

DUH!

Close the borders before you offer ANY kind of amnesty or the population of the US will double overnight.

[PlatyPius 5]

Actually we have the H-2A VISA for agricultural workers. Unfortunately there are only about 30,000 people per year on this program. It needs to be much larger, the program needs to be expanded for other types of work, and must be made easier for employers to do. BTW, H-2A workers are covered by wage laws and workers' compensation, which illegals are not.

Yes!

A friend of mine owns a large Pear orchard in Washington state. She hires farm workers for a few months each year. She pays them $18/hour, provides housing, and supplies insurance. A few months of that would be the same as a year's wages in Mexico. If the people would come over on that visa, work, then return, everyone would be happy.

[SMOKE 1,426]

We's got dem minimum wage laws. Bust the businesses that don't want to play neither fair nor maintain a decent standard of living. Which is, according to what these new attrition-based laws say, will happen with the ilegales. Then again, businesses can just pack up and go elsewhere... outsourcing themselves to make a bigger buck where they feel an advantage. Then you've just condemned both ilegales and the lower classes alike. Way to go!

so you have no answer?

Whining over a lack of reading comp...

That should be answer enough.

The American at least has a chance of upward mobility. Quick! Before his/her job gets outsourced to... [pick your favorite country]

so, you still have no answer, just more insults & fear mongering. so i'll ask again

why are there some people that are so against unskilled American & legal immigrants having a chance at a job w/o having to except lower wages to compete w/ illegal immigrants? i don't understand it. these laws are being put in place to protect the middle & lower class.

Edited February 1, 2008 by SMOKE

[Dan J 277]

Actually we have the H-2A VISA for agricultural workers. Unfortunately there are only about 30,000 people per year on this program. It needs to be much larger, the program needs to be expanded for other types of work, and must be made easier for employers to do. BTW, H-2A workers are covered by wage laws and workers' compensation, which illegals are not.

Yes!

A friend of mine owns a large Pear orchard in Washington state. She hires farm workers for a few months each year. She pays them $18/hour, provides housing, and supplies insurance. A few months of that would be the same as a year's wages in Mexico. If the people would come over on that visa, work, then return, everyone would be happy.

There are also companies who misuse it. Since a worker cannot look for work with another employer on the visa, the workers get paid below minimum wage.

[garya505 2]

Actually we have the H-2A VISA for agricultural workers. Unfortunately there are only about 30,000 people per year on this program. It needs to be much larger, the program needs to be expanded for other types of work, and must be made easier for employers to do. BTW, H-2A workers are covered by wage laws and workers' compensation, which illegals are not.

Yes!

A friend of mine owns a large Pear orchard in Washington state. She hires farm workers for a few months each year. She pays them $18/hour, provides housing, and supplies insurance. A few months of that would be the same as a year's wages in Mexico. If the people would come over on that visa, work, then return, everyone would be happy.

There are also companies who misuse it. Since a worker cannot look for work with another employer on the visa, the workers get paid below minimum wage.

What do you suppose illegals get paid, and with no insurance or workers comp either? And those who die or are victimized crossing the desert? I worked with such temporary workers during my summers in college. Most of them are hard-working honest people and we need them. Let's give them a way to do it legally, and get rid of the scumbags. This can only happen with a secure border and an improved temporary worker program.

[natty bumppo 297]

We's got dem minimum wage laws. Bust the businesses that don't want to play neither fair nor maintain a decent standard of living. Which is, according to what these new attrition-based laws say, will happen with the ilegales. Then again, businesses can just pack up and go elsewhere... outsourcing themselves to make a bigger buck where they feel an advantage. Then you've just condemned both ilegales and the lower classes alike. Way to go!

Darn ... all those lawn service workers being outsourced ...

[no name 1]

We's got dem minimum wage laws. Bust the businesses that don't want to play neither fair nor maintain a decent standard of living. Which is, according to what these new attrition-based laws say, will happen with the ilegales. Then again, businesses can just pack up and go elsewhere... outsourcing themselves to make a bigger buck where they feel an advantage. Then you've just condemned both ilegales and the lower classes alike. Way to go!

Darn ... all those lawn service workers being outsourced ...

[HAL 9000 96]

We's got dem minimum wage laws. Bust the businesses that don't want to play neither fair nor maintain a decent standard of living. Which is, according to what these new attrition-based laws say, will happen with the ilegales. Then again, businesses can just pack up and go elsewhere... outsourcing themselves to make a bigger buck where they feel an advantage. Then you've just condemned both ilegales and the lower classes alike. Way to go!

so you have no answer?

Whining over a lack of reading comp...

That should be answer enough.

The American at least has a chance of upward mobility. Quick! Before his/her job gets outsourced to... [pick your favorite country]

We's got dem?

Anyhow, the biggest offenders - farming, construction & meatpacking plants - can hardly get outsourced.

Yeah, we's got minimum wage laws, thank God.

Actually, farming and meatpacking can be outsourced. After all, the US supplies grains to a large part of the world thanks to Ag subsidies. Construction can be somewhat. Some homes are actually assembled before being put on the building site.

Some maybe but not all farmland or grazing land will go away. The sheer land mass of America makes that impossible.

And when's the last time you saw a prefab home? Gimme a break.

Actually this is a good point brought up. I think some reading into where most fast food industries get their 'meat' from will give surprising results... and that's just hte fast food industry.

My wife works PT on the side as an international broker and one of the current demands is in food products that are cheaper overseas. That in itself is a form of outsourcing.

The bigger forms though will involve the companies themselves... and while Dev is totally right about many of those industries not being really able to outsource, as in the farm not being able to move... you can most certainly move the farmer and the farming company. And still not pay the new farmer anywhere near minimum wage as it compares to US laws.