Hillary: Those who want to deport illegals are "living in some other universe"

[Peikko 1,575]

Is "spoke to" American for "address"?

[Ban Hammer 13,394]

By the way, isn't talking about roots a TOS violation?

it's all in the context of the discussion.

[HAL 9000 96]

Actually it all started out with listening in on debate talk...

Xenophobia came up a couple of times without me actually saying anything... and this is on a CTA (Chicago) bus, mind you...

[Dan J 277]

Those with criminal records will not be able to get legal status and their numbers will dwindle through deportation and attrition.

That sounds a lot like the la-la land that Shrillery was referring to. If you think that the 12-14 million are going to dwindle, then reality isn't setting in. In my opinion, its very jingoistic to say they are cutting in-line and not waiting their turn, but come on, 12-14 MILLION. You simply cannot get that many people to leave. Securing the border is a good step toward trying to make sure that the 12-14 figure doesn't increase. But the fact remains the government simply doesn't have the resources to deport those who are already here.

But then what people always forget, is half of them, never came through the border illegally.

Deporting 12-14 million people is unrealistic. Can we even do that, without seriously impeding privacy for all people in the US?

Restricting ability to work and live, wont send many of them home. Even the underground economy in the US can be better than what they have to go home too. Since they wont turn to the police, there are many who would take advantage of a work force, that they could effectively employ for almost free.

Does anybody have data on % of illegal immigrant with income from underground economy and income working for companies who do not bother checking their employment auth (despite lack of SSN)?

I suspect most employers do check ID, but it's easy to get fake IDs, and employers are not allowed to question ID validity. I know a manager of a local fast food place and I asked him. He said yeah, he knows a lot of the IDs are fake, but that's not his problem. If he checks the ID he has complied with the law.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Pickle_Company

This guy brought Indian welders to the US to work at his factory and exploited them as cheaper labor. This is only one case were the company was caught, but how many more are doing the same?

Then the other case is companies who don't appear on the radar. Usually don't pay taxes or anything that brings attention to them. Illegal immigrants who don't have anywhere else to go, may turn to these types of "companies".

[SteveLaura 0]

Is "spoke to" American for "address"?

People are strangely silent on this subject. I think we should be told.

[PlatyPius 5]

I shall speak only in Venn. By the way, isn't talking about roots a TOS violation?

It is if your name is Kunta Kinte...

Toby.

[no name 1]

I didn't watch it - but there's plenty of historical info in the public domain with regards to the candidates' history on that issue.

All I'm saying is neither of them appear to have a strong stand on this issue that would likely satisfy many people.

Yes. But it's satisfying enough that they are getting votes...

It was a very good debate actually. Polite & they disagreed on issues, not people. I was surprised (but glad) to see Hillary admit she has changed her position. They also admitted they agree on a lot, like most core Dem issues.

Edited February 1, 2008 by devilette

[Sister Fracas 5]

This is a given. Most outside the VJ community I've spoken to or heard talking of the "issue" could care less. Much like many around here that care less about actually reducing the problem from the root on up.

yes, VJers are NOT representative of the general public when it comes to immigration.

So if deportation is NOT the answer, I'd rather see the government collect a fee from them and not allow them to sponge off of the system any longer. Yeah, so someone is going to feel they cut in the greencard/citizenship line...well, boo-freakin-hoo. I'm not happy about it either, but how much hatred and whining about it is productive? If they become greencard holders or citizens, great, they'll be tax-payers all nice and legal. Cuz there is NO WAY you'll ever get rid of "all of them". There aren't a lot of choices... keep the status quo, deport, or move to get them legal.

[HAL 9000 96]

Is "spoke to" American for "address"?

People are strangely silent on this subject. I think we should be told.

'Unfortunately in some circles its "Googled" while in others its "Yahooed" and in others its "what I was told to hear"

[masterpiece91 0]

Does anybody really believe those who are here illegally will ever pay these "fines" that Hillary speaks of ? What a crock of poop if they try and pass this off as immigration reform, it is amnesty plain and simple. Every single one of these people who entered the US illegally had the chance to apply for a visa but instead chose to cross illegally.

Sofargone

Hmmm.... from what you have just posted it is clear that you have no idea of what really happens outside of your bubble. If these people had an opportunity to come here legally don't you think they would? Most of them are people who are decent and hard workers who want nothing else but to survive. Get your facts straight... The immigration system is broken and it only appeals to those who don't have a necessity to come here. As a matter of fact alot of those people who the system favors are those corrupt politics who are running away from the law in their countries.

So therefore don't speak without knowing exactly what happens. Just another piece of information for you.... alot of these illigal immigrants do pay their taxes and never see a penny back from tax returns. I don't see any statistical information on this being shown... reason for this is that most people opposed to "illigal immigration" really are opposed to immigration as a whole... Yet i'm not surprise since that has been the history of the USA. New flow of immigrants come in and are discriminated against. Don't forget the great immigration of the Italians and the Irish and the Chinese. Have you ever been down to Little Italy? do you know why it exist? Because the nature of humans is to congregate with their own kind. This does not mean immigrants don't want to assimilate but it simply points to human nature. Anyways i think i have said enough. Have a great day!

Get my facts straight ???

Hey if you wanna believe in the big pipe dream that if those here illegally had the chance they would have come here legally then go ahead. But dont come in here popping off about getting my facts straight. Now can you get your facts straight and please tell me and everyone else in here how these people were prevented from coming here legally. Please tell us inquiring minds would like to know.

Here are the only ways you could attain a legal residence in the US and after looking at these tell me how a poor famr worker who doesn't make enough to even buy a plate or rice could benefit and have an opportunity to come here legally:

- Immigration through a family member (Oops... no family member cause they all live with him in a small hut)

- Immigration through employment (Oops... how many employers actually go recruiting outside of the country for simple farm workers)

- Immigration under the national interest waiver for physicians in underserved areas (Oops... remember his a farm worker)

- Immigration through investment (Oops... you mean no American country is interested in investing in this poor farm worker)

- Immigration through the Legal Immigration Family Equity Act (LIFE) (Oops... once again they all ive with him in a small hut)

- Adjusting to lawful permanent resident status as an asylee or refugee (Oops... so because the US gorvernment has covered their eyes to this workers inhumane treatment by his own government... maybe just maybe they don't qualify this way either)

- Immigration through the Diversity Lottery (Wow... so 50,000 lof these are given and most of them are given based on education)

- Immigration through International adoption (Oops... i guess he's too old to get adopted)

- Violence Against Women Act (VAWA) (Hmm... interesting... let me guess maybe he qualifies here.)

- Immigration through "The Registry" Provision of the Immigration and Nationality Act (...or maybe here)

- Immigration as a "Special Immigrant" (What does this even mean?)

- Immigration through Country-Specific Adjustment (Did i forget to mention he is a lowly farmer who does not live in the correct country)

- Immigration through the Cuban Adjustment Act (Now... we all know the only reason cubans get this right? Could it be simply out of spite for the Cuban government)

- Immigration through the Haitian Refugee Immigration Fairness Act of 1998 (HRIFA) (Well... i guess he's not hatian either)

- Iraqi Exemption to Asylee Adjustment Cap (O come on... do i have to go into this one?)

- Immigration through the Nicaraguan Adjustment and Central American Relief ACT (NACARA) Section 202 (How many people get this visa?)

- Immigration through the Nicaraguan Adjustment and Central American Relief ACT (NACARA) (Section 203) (How many people get this visa?)

- Adjustment through Syrian Adjustment Act (P.L. 106-378) (I don't even understnad this one)

- Immigration for Eligible Individuals from Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos (Did i mention he does not come from the right government?)

Oh and did i forget to mention that these people can't even get a tourist visa since they don't have enough money to proof that they are worthy... Now you get your facts straight!!!

Ok and another thing IF they are here illegally then what taxes are they paying and whose SSN or Tax ID are they using ? Whatever taxes they may be paying sure as hell arent listed under their name as they have no legal basis or right to work. So please get your facts straight or STFU ! You really are living in another world if you think the immigrants of today compare at all to those of the past. The Irish, Italians and Chinese that you speak of most ALL of them came here legally and came here to be Americans and for a better way of life. they did not cross illegally and then have the beliefs that they should be entitled to all sorts of basic government benefits.

You are right about one thing... alot of these people do not even use their own SS# which means they keep paying into a system that will not benefit them in the long run to begin with... and by the way one way or another they are paying their taxes are they not?

And by the way my ignorant friend... did you know that immigrations laws as we know them now for the most part were recent and that even the chinese big immigration was considered as a detiriation of society.... please read on...

Immigrant Act (1965): eliminated immigration quotas, establishing new criteria for immigrants.

"The 1965 immigration act removed 'natural origins' as the basis of American immigration legislation and was framed as an amendment to the 1952 McCarran-Walter Act. The 1965 act abolished 'national origin' quotas and specified seven preferences for Eastern Hemisphere quota immigrants: (1) unmarried adult sons and daughters of citizens; (2) spouses and unmarried sons and daughters of permanent residents; (3) professionals, scientists, and artists of ëexceptional abilityí; (4) married adult sons and daughters of U.S. citizens; (5) siblings of adult citizens; (6) workers, skilled and unskilled, in occupations for which labor was in short supply in the United States; and (7) refugees from Communist-dominated countries or those uprooted by natural catastrophe. [Ö] Since 1965, two million Asian quota immigrants, two million nonquota immigrants, and one million refugees outside the seventh preference have arrived" (Lowe 181-82fn16).

And also who the heck told you people come here thinking they deserve everything? For the most part the people that come here are hard working people who are more than happy to collect the crumbs from your table and live a life of gratitude towards you for allowing them to do that.

Furthermore I challenge you to make your lame case that illegals should be allowed to stay. What part of illegal do YOU not understand. Its attitudes like your spewing that makes it harder and more difficult for those trying to do it legally.

Lastly, I don't recall seeing anyone or myself saying anything against people immigrating to the USA. If people wanna come here and do it legally for a better way of life then hey that's what immigration is all about. But the assumption that they are here illegally because they cant be legal is not any kind of argument at all and really makes one wonder how you could even make a statement like that.

Game on.

Sofargone

I hope from the facts shown aboe you could see that indeed my statements were true. And also just to make sure you understand... i am all for having people come here legally.... so make that available....

And one last thing... if you think that we as a country could round up over 12 million people to deport them than you are an ignorant refusing to see the details of such a large task... and simply not educated enough to know that this is not possible...

Check Mate

masterpiece91

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

I didn't watch it - but there's plenty of historical info in the public domain with regards to the candidates' history on that issue.

All I'm saying is neither of them appear to have a strong stand on this issue that would likely satisfy many people.

Yes. But it's satisfying enough that they are getting votes...

It was a very good debate actually. Polite & they disagreed on issues, not people. I was surprised (but glad) to see Hillary admit she has changed her position. They also admitted they agree on a lot, like most core Dem issues.

Maybe. But I'm not convinced as yet, from their stated positions (both past and present) that any of the major candidates will be able to offer the sort of long-term, definitive solution to the illegal immigration problem that many people (here, at least) seem to want.

I suspect many people will end up voting Dem, simply as a statement for change - away from the current lot and may end up overlooking certain aspects of the candidates stands on an actual issues (like immigration) if it means that a Democratic candidate would get in...

After all that's pretty much why Tony Blair got in back home - it wasn't so much because of what he actually stood for, but because people were tired of the previous lot.

[tom&tata 2]

Those with criminal records will not be able to get legal status and their numbers will dwindle through deportation and attrition.

That sounds a lot like the la-la land that Shrillery was referring to. If you think that the 12-14 million are going to dwindle, then reality isn't setting in. In my opinion, its very jingoistic to say they are cutting in-line and not waiting their turn, but come on, 12-14 MILLION. You simply cannot get that many people to leave. Securing the border is a good step toward trying to make sure that the 12-14 figure doesn't increase. But the fact remains the government simply doesn't have the resources to deport those who are already here.

But then what people always forget, is half of them, never came through the border illegally.

Deporting 12-14 million people is unrealistic. Can we even do that, without seriously impeding privacy for all people in the US?

Restricting ability to work and live, wont send many of them home. Even the underground economy in the US can be better than what they have to go home too. Since they wont turn to the police, there are many who would take advantage of a work force, that they could effectively employ for almost free.

Does anybody have data on % of illegal immigrant with income from underground economy and income working for companies who do not bother checking their employment auth (despite lack of SSN)?

I suspect most employers do check ID, but it's easy to get fake IDs, and employers are not allowed to question ID validity. I know a manager of a local fast food place and I asked him. He said yeah, he knows a lot of the IDs are fake, but that's not his problem. If he checks the ID he has complied with the law.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Pickle_Company

This guy brought Indian welders to the US to work at his factory and exploited them as cheaper labor. This is only one case were the company was caught, but how many more are doing the same?

Then the other case is companies who don't appear on the radar. Usually don't pay taxes or anything that brings attention to them. Illegal immigrants who don't have anywhere else to go, may turn to these types of "companies".

If bigger percentage is employed by company who does not bother to check proper document, then just enforce the verification - like the new Indiana bill. Without work, they would not hang around too much longer. No need to deport & cost the taxpayer more money.

[SMOKE 1,426]

Those with criminal records will not be able to get legal status and their numbers will dwindle through deportation and attrition.

That sounds a lot like the la-la land that Shrillery was referring to. If you think that the 12-14 million are going to dwindle, then reality isn't setting in. In my opinion, its very jingoistic to say they are cutting in-line and not waiting their turn, but come on, 12-14 MILLION. You simply cannot get that many people to leave. Securing the border is a good step toward trying to make sure that the 12-14 figure doesn't increase. But the fact remains the government simply doesn't have the resources to deport those who are already here.

But then what people always forget, is half of them, never came through the border illegally.

Deporting 12-14 million people is unrealistic. Can we even do that, without seriously impeding privacy for all people in the US?

Restricting ability to work and live, wont send many of them home. Even the underground economy in the US can be better than what they have to go home too. Since they wont turn to the police, there are many who would take advantage of a work force, that they could effectively employ for almost free.

Does anybody have data on % of illegal immigrant with income from underground economy and income working for companies who do not bother checking their employment auth (despite lack of SSN)?

I suspect most employers do check ID, but it's easy to get fake IDs, and employers are not allowed to question ID validity. I know a manager of a local fast food place and I asked him. He said yeah, he knows a lot of the IDs are fake, but that's not his problem. If he checks the ID he has complied with the law.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Pickle_Company

This guy brought Indian welders to the US to work at his factory and exploited them as cheaper labor. This is only one case were the company was caught, but how many more are doing the same?

Then the other case is companies who don't appear on the radar. Usually don't pay taxes or anything that brings attention to them. Illegal immigrants who don't have anywhere else to go, may turn to these types of "companies".

If bigger percentage is employed by company who does not bother to check proper document, then just enforce the verification - like the new Indiana bill. Without work, they would not hang around too much longer. No need to deport & cost the taxpayer more money.

yep.. to Oklahoma, Arizona, & Indiana.

[Dan J 277]

Those with criminal records will not be able to get legal status and their numbers will dwindle through deportation and attrition.

That sounds a lot like the la-la land that Shrillery was referring to. If you think that the 12-14 million are going to dwindle, then reality isn't setting in. In my opinion, its very jingoistic to say they are cutting in-line and not waiting their turn, but come on, 12-14 MILLION. You simply cannot get that many people to leave. Securing the border is a good step toward trying to make sure that the 12-14 figure doesn't increase. But the fact remains the government simply doesn't have the resources to deport those who are already here.

But then what people always forget, is half of them, never came through the border illegally.

Deporting 12-14 million people is unrealistic. Can we even do that, without seriously impeding privacy for all people in the US?

Restricting ability to work and live, wont send many of them home. Even the underground economy in the US can be better than what they have to go home too. Since they wont turn to the police, there are many who would take advantage of a work force, that they could effectively employ for almost free.

Does anybody have data on % of illegal immigrant with income from underground economy and income working for companies who do not bother checking their employment auth (despite lack of SSN)?

I suspect most employers do check ID, but it's easy to get fake IDs, and employers are not allowed to question ID validity. I know a manager of a local fast food place and I asked him. He said yeah, he knows a lot of the IDs are fake, but that's not his problem. If he checks the ID he has complied with the law.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Pickle_Company

This guy brought Indian welders to the US to work at his factory and exploited them as cheaper labor. This is only one case were the company was caught, but how many more are doing the same?

Then the other case is companies who don't appear on the radar. Usually don't pay taxes or anything that brings attention to them. Illegal immigrants who don't have anywhere else to go, may turn to these types of "companies".

If bigger percentage is employed by company who does not bother to check proper document, then just enforce the verification - like the new Indiana bill. Without work, they would not hang around too much longer. No need to deport & cost the taxpayer more money.

Thats hopeful thinking.

There are companies that exist under the radar. They don't technically exist, and pay employees with cash. Think sweatshops, prostitution rings, and all sorts of businesses that may border on legality, or want to avoid taxes or other scrutiny.

Some might go home, but many will likely find working for these underground "companies" better than what they can get at home. Being that both parties involved don't want to get caught, its likely going to lead to a lot of exploitation.

On the other hand, for those who get hired through day labor, are homeowners or other employers going to be expected to verify the immigration status of someone they hire for a short term job?

[no name 1]

Those with criminal records will not be able to get legal status and their numbers will dwindle through deportation and attrition.

That sounds a lot like the la-la land that Shrillery was referring to. If you think that the 12-14 million are going to dwindle, then reality isn't setting in. In my opinion, its very jingoistic to say they are cutting in-line and not waiting their turn, but come on, 12-14 MILLION. You simply cannot get that many people to leave. Securing the border is a good step toward trying to make sure that the 12-14 figure doesn't increase. But the fact remains the government simply doesn't have the resources to deport those who are already here.

But then what people always forget, is half of them, never came through the border illegally.

Deporting 12-14 million people is unrealistic. Can we even do that, without seriously impeding privacy for all people in the US?

Restricting ability to work and live, wont send many of them home. Even the underground economy in the US can be better than what they have to go home too. Since they wont turn to the police, there are many who would take advantage of a work force, that they could effectively employ for almost free.

Does anybody have data on % of illegal immigrant with income from underground economy and income working for companies who do not bother checking their employment auth (despite lack of SSN)?

I suspect most employers do check ID, but it's easy to get fake IDs, and employers are not allowed to question ID validity. I know a manager of a local fast food place and I asked him. He said yeah, he knows a lot of the IDs are fake, but that's not his problem. If he checks the ID he has complied with the law.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Pickle_Company

This guy brought Indian welders to the US to work at his factory and exploited them as cheaper labor. This is only one case were the company was caught, but how many more are doing the same?

Then the other case is companies who don't appear on the radar. Usually don't pay taxes or anything that brings attention to them. Illegal immigrants who don't have anywhere else to go, may turn to these types of "companies".

If bigger percentage is employed by company who does not bother to check proper document, then just enforce the verification - like the new Indiana bill. Without work, they would not hang around too much longer. No need to deport & cost the taxpayer more money.

Thats hopeful thinking.

There are companies that exist under the radar. They don't technically exist, and pay employees with cash. Think sweatshops, prostitution rings, and all sorts of businesses that may border on legality, or want to avoid taxes or other scrutiny.

Some might go home, but many will likely find working for these underground "companies" better than what they can get at home. Being that both parties involved don't want to get caught, its likely going to lead to a lot of exploitation.

On the other hand, for those who get hired through day labor, are homeowners or other employers going to be expected to verify the immigration status of someone they hire for a short term job?

Will the law affect everyone? Nope. But it will force construction firms, meatpacking plants, etc who use illegals to stop. So yes, I consider it progress.