Hillary: Those who want to deport illegals are "living in some other universe"

[rebeccajo 14]

since that one has been thrown around already in here, i figured it was coming again.

while i understand your concern about any peripheral fallout from any illegal legislation, i also don't believe in borrowing trouble - worrying about it to excess or thinking it will limit family based immigration (no not the website), nor should it serve as a basis for doing nothing about illegal immigration as that certainly won't solve anything (witness the current fiasco in the usa).

Ah - look at your first sentence! Why are you saying that!

maybe this is why?

vw ....

geg for president

Of what? The KKK?

That sounds like categorically denying before thinking about the point! I might be wrong because maybe you've thought about it before. But the answer came pretty quickly.

We have a problem in this country with illegal entry. Fine - we both agree on that.

Is it possible that we don't really need any new laws to deal with that? Is it possible we just need to enforce the laws on the books? Or create better infrastructure (ie technology) to handle it?

Do we really need to write new laws?

so you don't like quick answers? oh well, can't help that.

enforce the laws, harsher penalties for employers of illegals, and yes technology needs to be used to help ferret out those using fake ids.

you decide if new laws are needed or not.

You don't like that I was 'nasty' to your friend. FYI - she had it coming to her.

I'm trying to have a civil conversation with you. You want to be flip about it. I don't understand that.

[GaryC 7]

Thats just it, no new laws are needed. Any "comprehensive immigration bill" is nothing more than an amnesty. All we need to do is apply the laws we already have in an even and uniform manner and the illegal problem will fix itself. If we enforce our borders and make it impossible for anyone that isn't here legally to work then they will go home the same way they came. If we deny anyone here that is undocumented any public or government charity other than emergency care they will not have the ability to stay. The problem fixes itself.

It could happen, as could other possibilities aforementioned.

But IMO this is the only right and fair way. It eliminates all need for new laws and judgment calls as to what is "humanitarian".

[Ban Hammer 13,355]

when are you gonna figure it out that it's not my problem? someone shows up at my house in need of major surgery does not mean i have a compulsion to pay for it. get real will you?

They're not asking you to help. Just give a damn about someone other than yourself and you may see a happier future.

But if you want to make the analogy of 'house and need' then maybe you could ask yourself why the hell they showed up in the first place. Real enough? Or is that not your problem either? News flash... they'll keep coming uninvited as long as you play the "its not my problem" card while we allow those that are the problem to continue making a fuss.

not my problem. plenty of more important things to worry about in the usa than someone who's not even supposed to be here.

and they'll come whether i care or not. or whether you care or not. welcome to reality.

Well, not true unless you just visualize a physical fence. There are systems, some of which we used in Vietnam and still make use of in Iraq, that are to be employed along the border fence. They are cheap, very effective and require minimal human intervention in terms of monitoring.

Ummm... you probably don't want to bring up Vietnam. Plus you need to close the entire border off completely and its cost is NOT cheap. Specially when compared to the cost of installation, maintenance, and patrolling. And still you'd have the human factor of creativity to contend with.

no, you don't.

try to understand the military concept of an obstacle. it will slow or impede movement but it won't stop it. obstacles are used to channel movement also, so you don't close off the entire border nor is that needed.

Good point.

They can just make their way around then or better yet... build better tunnels under the obstacles. I don't think I need to talk like a strategist to remind you of human ingenuity?

digging a tunnel takes lotsa time, try it. and surveillance will note it. keep trying, sun tzu.

[Ban Hammer 13,355]

since that one has been thrown around already in here, i figured it was coming again.

while i understand your concern about any peripheral fallout from any illegal legislation, i also don't believe in borrowing trouble - worrying about it to excess or thinking it will limit family based immigration (no not the website), nor should it serve as a basis for doing nothing about illegal immigration as that certainly won't solve anything (witness the current fiasco in the usa).

Ah - look at your first sentence! Why are you saying that!

maybe this is why?

vw ....

geg for president

Of what? The KKK?

That sounds like categorically denying before thinking about the point! I might be wrong because maybe you've thought about it before. But the answer came pretty quickly.

We have a problem in this country with illegal entry. Fine - we both agree on that.

Is it possible that we don't really need any new laws to deal with that? Is it possible we just need to enforce the laws on the books? Or create better infrastructure (ie technology) to handle it?

Do we really need to write new laws?

so you don't like quick answers? oh well, can't help that.

enforce the laws, harsher penalties for employers of illegals, and yes technology needs to be used to help ferret out those using fake ids.

you decide if new laws are needed or not.

You don't like that I was 'nasty' to your friend. FYI - she had it coming to her.

I'm trying to have a civil conversation with you. You want to be flip about it. I don't understand that.

no, she didn't have that coming to her. and i do expect better out of you.

nor am i flip with you.

[HAL 9000 96]

Thats just it, no new laws are needed. Any "comprehensive immigration bill" is nothing more than an amnesty. All we need to do is apply the laws we already have in an even and uniform manner and the illegal problem will fix itself. If we enforce our borders and make it impossible for anyone that isn't here legally to work then they will go home the same way they came. If we deny anyone here that is undocumented any public or government charity other than emergency care they will not have the ability to stay. The problem fixes itself.

It could happen, as could other possibilities aforementioned.

But IMO this is the only right and fair way. It eliminates all need for new laws and judgment calls as to what is "humanitarian".

I'm sure we can accommodate this viewpoint as a 'legal' way of doing things.

As for doing things fairly, there's always the humanitarian way. In other words, using something like the Golden Rule we all hopefully learned in kindergarten. Or as Dog himself so eloquently put it one time: 'Teaching them how to fish for themselves'. This involves making sure there are no bullies (like now) that happen to be our friends by convenience to us.

when are you gonna figure it out that it's not my problem? someone shows up at my house in need of major surgery does not mean i have a compulsion to pay for it. get real will you?

They're not asking you to help. Just give a damn about someone other than yourself and you may see a happier future.

But if you want to make the analogy of 'house and need' then maybe you could ask yourself why the hell they showed up in the first place. Real enough? Or is that not your problem either? News flash... they'll keep coming uninvited as long as you play the "its not my problem" card while we allow those that are the problem to continue making a fuss.

not my problem. plenty of more important things to worry about in the usa than someone who's not even supposed to be here.

and they'll come whether i care or not. or whether you care or not. welcome to reality.

Well, not true unless you just visualize a physical fence. There are systems, some of which we used in Vietnam and still make use of in Iraq, that are to be employed along the border fence. They are cheap, very effective and require minimal human intervention in terms of monitoring.

Ummm... you probably don't want to bring up Vietnam. Plus you need to close the entire border off completely and its cost is NOT cheap. Specially when compared to the cost of installation, maintenance, and patrolling. And still you'd have the human factor of creativity to contend with.

no, you don't.

try to understand the military concept of an obstacle. it will slow or impede movement but it won't stop it. obstacles are used to channel movement also, so you don't close off the entire border nor is that needed.

Good point.

They can just make their way around then or better yet... build better tunnels under the obstacles. I don't think I need to talk like a strategist to remind you of human ingenuity?

digging a tunnel takes lotsa time, try it. and surveillance will note it. keep trying, sun tzu.

LOL...

Just one possibility. IMO I wouldn't put too much stock on one option. Things tend to break.

[HAL 9000 96]

not my problem. plenty of more important things to worry about in the usa than someone who's not even supposed to be here.

and they'll come whether i care or not. or whether you care or not. welcome to reality.

And this is why we can pretty much guarantee that some will continue to come.

Speaking of coming and going, I just got a sad call from the wifey... grandma is in a coma. Now I have to go home and be there.

[kaydee457 13]

Well, not true unless you just visualize a physical fence. There are systems, some of which we used in Vietnam and still make use of in Iraq, that are to be employed along the border fence. They are cheap, very effective and require minimal human intervention in terms of monitoring.

Ummm... you probably don't want to bring up Vietnam. Plus you need to close the entire border off completely and its cost is NOT cheap. Specially when compared to the cost of installation, maintenance, and patrolling. And still you'd have the human factor of creativity to contend with.

response by Kaydee: Why would I not want to mention a war I fought in, proudly? Sheesh! The fact is there are systems that you clearly have an ignorance of. They are cheap, have been produced since the 1970's and are effective. The simplist will detect metal so small that the metal eyeloop in ones shoes will set it off (alarm, not explosion).....There are infrared detection, RPOV's and a whole host of other kinds of machines to be used to secure the border. It's not your fathers fence we're talking about here!

I'd rather have 50 going across a day than 1000/day with an unsecured border.

If possible is the key word. It's not reasonable to suggest that meatpackers, chicken processing factories, and the like that make use of "illegal" labor would move anywhere as the labor outlay isn't as significant as other costs such as transportation, etc.

Most employers do not seek out illegals but rather the other way around. Illegals gain employment by providing falsified documents. There's no reason to believe that these jobs wouldn't simply be filled by legal residents.

If is a big word indeed. And the food industry actually is seeking to diversify south of the border.

response by Kaydee: Well then that's not an issue here......

Sure you'd have the possibility that these jobs be filled by legals. And you'd also have the possibility that they pack up and go elsewhere the law is more favorable to their bottom dollar, peso, yen, etc. A factory can be moved internationally quite easily.

response by Kaydee: There's no evidence that this would be so......This is conjecture and opinion on your part unless of course you have a source to back up this assertion?

I certainly don't agree with this. We cannot cure the ills of the world and the practical reality is that we can "make noise" but to suggest that we can somehow pressure these countries to become more sympathetic to their own citizens is somewhat naive.

We are not talking about curing the ills of the world. We are talking about not abusing our power to stimulate the growth of corrupt economies that, hin hint, yield illegal immigration our way.

response by Kaydee: There's no evidence that this would be so......This is conjecture and opinion on your part unless of course you have a source to back up this assertion?

Geopolitics dictates that we need to have allies that we can rely on and like the "bad apple" in the family ( almost all families have one) for the sake of the family we try to get along with family members that occasionally misbehave.

Strong enemies are evolving down south and it's important that we keep our allies regadless of their "faults"....lest we be alone!

This in itself is an entirely other matter. In the past we have followed the appeasement of bad apples by removing democratically elected governments in the region you describe, supported corruption left and right, and watched our interests grow along with the flow of illegal immigration.

What you consider misbehaving is an assertion of sovereignty. Every nation has a right to express itself as it sees fit much like we do so here. Even if it means having a silly dictator in office, democratically elected, on the left or on the right. What is completely unacceptable- as it pertains to the topic of illegal immigration, is trying to have our cake and eat it too while not letting the bakers get a piece of the action.

response by Kaydee:

Ha HA. You brought this topic up through vague innuendo and now want me to start a new topic?

If you see strong "enemies" down south please elaborate in a separate topic. I'm sure your Cold War mentality about whom I think you're thinking of will be analyzed in that light.

response by Kaydee: Very naive....Noriega ring a bell? Again, you brought this up.....now you elaborate given that you've taken the liberal popular stance that it's all America's fault....It's always blame America first...I'm surprised that you haven't blamed Bush yet as that also seems to be the liberal "keuel" thing to do on campus......LOL, where do you people come from anyway?????

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

Ok, people, if you don't learn how to quote, I'm gonna have this thread closed!

[kaydee457 13]

Ok, people, if you don't learn how to quote, I'm gonna have this thread closed!

Not my fault....I can't spend the afternoon trying to fix a mangled series of quotes...

[JohnK 0]

As for doing things fairly, there's always the humanitarian way. In other words, using something like the Golden Rule we all hopefully learned in kindergarten. Or as Dog himself so eloquently put it one time: 'Teaching them how to fish for themselves'. This involves making sure there are no bullies (like now) that happen to be our friends by convenience to us.

Yes, we should all bow down to the Golden Rule. If somebody breaks a law then we all should think "Gosh, if I had broken that law I'd sure want people to forgive me and forget it" and thus forgive and forget all the laws broken by others.

I'm sure murderers would be happy if we followed the Golden Rule too, because nobody wants to go to jail for murder so we certainly shouldn't send them to jail either.

[kaydee457 13]

Now, we can't let this thread slip to page two as we haven't yet resolved the "undocumented" and therfore obviously ILLEGAL immigrant issue! LOL