Hillary: Those who want to deport illegals are "living in some other universe"

[rebeccajo 14]

So what's it going to be Charles? Humanitarian treatment of people already here or closing the border off. U pick.

like i said earlier, spare me the emotional appeal bs. it really trivializes anything you have to say and if your argument is solely based on that, then you've lost.

Like before you're skating the issue. Question still stands. Where do you want to take the argument? Being human here or closing the border off? U pick.

I can't speak for Charles but I can for myself. Close the border. As for being human what does that mean? Handing over all of our rights to people that do not have a right to them? I would give emergency care to someone that needs it but if your talking about free medical care to everyone regardless of status then the answer is no. Send them home and let their own country take care of them.

Gary - I hate to tell you, but you don't have a 'right' to health care in this country. We don't have socialized medicine, remember?

I was speaking of rights in general, sorry for the wandering thoughts. And thank God we don't have socialized medicine.

Well that's another topic for another day.

I only pointed it out because healthcare in this country isn't under the juris of our government. Hospitals are a private sector 'for profit' business. Yet there is that damnable hipocratic oath out there.

Government walks a very fine line when they start attempting to legislate who 'deserves' healthcare and who doesn't. It's a moral issue and it's also an invasion of government into private sector commerce.

The only entity who probably has 'legal' footing for making that determination are the states when paying for care to the indigent. Illegal entrants fall into that category. I think it is unwise for the States to be making that decision individually. Not from an ecomomic point of view because of course somebody HAS to be keeping an eye on the till. But for the States to be making decisions about whether or not they will pay for healthcare based upon a status that the FEDERAL government has to confer - that's not good.

[natty bumppo 297]

So what's it going to be Charles? Humanitarian treatment of people already here or closing the border off. U pick.

like i said earlier, spare me the emotional appeal bs. it really trivializes anything you have to say and if your argument is solely based on that, then you've lost.

Like before you're skating the issue. Question still stands. Where do you want to take the argument? Being human here or closing the border off? U pick.

I can't speak for Charles but I can for myself. Close the border. As for being human what does that mean? Handing over all of our rights to people that do not have a right to them? I would give emergency care to someone that needs it but if your talking about free medical care to everyone regardless of status then the answer is no. Send them home and let their own country take care of them.

Good, Gary, good. This is what I'm after. I also believe that we can have a shred of human decency for those in need. Free medical care is something alltogether different. I'd let health care providers decide how much pro bono work they are willing to do on their own time. And I feel that while many MDs care little for pro bono work in treating a cold, others feel that they have an actual inclination to care for people. That's what makes them doctors.

To add into this thought ... stabalize the person (illegal alien) ... then send them back to their own country for further treatment. Immediate deportation for humanitarian purposes (to receive health care).

And what happens if the MDs decide they have done enough pro bono work ... and still illegals need treatment? Do we give the MDs pro bono time/ effort to illegals over the pro bono time for USCs?

[PlatyPius 5]

So what's it going to be Charles? Humanitarian treatment of people already here or closing the border off. U pick.

like i said earlier, spare me the emotional appeal bs. it really trivializes anything you have to say and if your argument is solely based on that, then you've lost.

Like before you're skating the issue. Question still stands. Where do you want to take the argument? Being human here or closing the border off? U pick.

I can't speak for Charles but I can for myself. Close the border. As for being human what does that mean? Handing over all of our rights to people that do not have a right to them? I would give emergency care to someone that needs it but if your talking about free medical care to everyone regardless of status then the answer is no. Send them home and let their own country take care of them.

Gary - I hate to tell you, but you don't have a 'right' to health care in this country. We don't have socialized medicine, remember?

EXACTLY!

"We" don't have the right to healthcare unless we can PAY for it. Ergo, why should the illegals get "free" healthcare? Thousands of Americans go without basic healthcare every day because they can't afford it. Why should someone who is here illegally be able to just walk in and get what legal citizens can't?

Hell, I've had a hernia for almost 6 years now that I haven't had fixed because I can't afford it. I guess if I were illegal though I could just walk in and get it taken care of, eh?

And off on another tangent...

maviwaro keeps talking about how we made it so that the illegals HAVE to cross the border illegally. Have you been smoking something? Mexico (I assume that's the country you're referring to) has ALWAYS been poor. Corrupt politicians, a corrupt police force.... citizens of Mexico were poor LONG before American companies started setting up over there after NAFTA. The companies that ARE over there are severely understaffed. Why? Because millions of the workers are over HERE illegally. There are recruiters at the border who meet the buses of deported illegals begging them to take jobs at the factories. Most turn them down and head right back over the border.

So keep your "it's our fault" ####### to yourself. Americans may have their problems, but we are NOT the reason for every bad thing in the world. Nor is it our responsibility to play nanny to every person on the planet. That attitude is what got us into our current bucket of sh!t with 9/11 and all that. "We" stick our noses into FAR too many matters that aren't any of our business. Ever wonder why the entire planet hates us? It's because of attitudes like yours....that everyone else needs a Great White Father to look after the brown, red, and yellow children of the world.; to protect them from their enemy, the evil corporations of America, the users, the takers.... In this case, that attitude has led to millions of illegals coming here to take advantage of our sympathy for their "plight" that the evil American corporations have forced upon them.

Edited February 4, 2008 by PlatyPius

[Ban Hammer 13,360]

Then don't visit our store since you're not even looking at the merchandise.

so you are saying i shouldn't be in this thread?

Charles, Charles -

You gotta admit, you take a pretty hardline stance on this issue. I think the analogy is - do you ever consider other points of view? Do you walk into the store at all and look around?

Why oh why does this issue have to be black or white? My way or the high way?

There's BOATLOADS of reasons the politicians haven't settled this issue before now - not the least of which is the fact that we are about to elect a new president. The pols realize there are constituents who want all the illegals put on the first bus back home. But that isn't going to happen!

and a hardline stance isn't an acceptable view? should i run for president of the kkk now?

Then don't visit our store since you're not even looking at the merchandise.

so you are saying i shouldn't be in this thread?

I love talking with you Charles... specially when its about the actual topic in the thread and by not skating the issue in circles. Unfortunately you're not interested.

Then don't visit our store since you're not even looking at the merchandise.

so you are saying i shouldn't be in this thread?

Now it is no longer a Family Based Immigration web site, it's a store....

No shirt, no shoes, no service....looks like you gotta go , Charles.

LOL... don't go Charles! buy something! Ask a question! Get to know the merchandise...

no interest. nor do we have to agree. got that yet?

[HAL 9000 96]

Then don't visit our store since you're not even looking at the merchandise.

so you are saying i shouldn't be in this thread?

Since you say you're a local, I'll illustrate some of the area hospitals I've picked human tissues from for my work:

He's in medicine ... must be talking about the harvesting of human parts to the highest bidder ....

Could it be that illegals are a source of supply?

They have to be dead to donate and the research is in metabolism.

[HAL 9000 96]

So what's it going to be Charles? Humanitarian treatment of people already here or closing the border off. U pick.

like i said earlier, spare me the emotional appeal bs. it really trivializes anything you have to say and if your argument is solely based on that, then you've lost.

Like before you're skating the issue. Question still stands. Where do you want to take the argument? Being human here or closing the border off? U pick.

I can't speak for Charles but I can for myself. Close the border. As for being human what does that mean? Handing over all of our rights to people that do not have a right to them? I would give emergency care to someone that needs it but if your talking about free medical care to everyone regardless of status then the answer is no. Send them home and let their own country take care of them.

Good, Gary, good. This is what I'm after. I also believe that we can have a shred of human decency for those in need. Free medical care is something alltogether different. I'd let health care providers decide how much pro bono work they are willing to do on their own time. And I feel that while many MDs care little for pro bono work in treating a cold, others feel that they have an actual inclination to care for people. That's what makes them doctors.

To add into this thought ... stabalize the person (illegal alien) ... then send them back to their own country for further treatment. Immediate deportation for humanitarian purposes (to receive health care).

And what happens if the MDs decide they have done enough pro bono work ... and still illegals need treatment? Do we give the MDs pro bono time/ effort to illegals over the pro bono time for USCs?

This wouldn't be the first time I see a hospital close its doors to those in need, which is usually what happens when there are no more pro bono hours.

[Ban Hammer 13,360]

Then don't visit our store since you're not even looking at the merchandise.

so you are saying i shouldn't be in this thread?

Since you say you're a local, I'll illustrate some of the area hospitals I've picked human tissues from for my work:

He's in medicine ... must be talking about the harvesting of human parts to the highest bidder ....

Could it be that illegals are a source of supply?

They have to be dead to donate and the research is in metabolism.

i didn't know the dead had any metabolism..........

[Peikko 1,575]

It all boils down to what kind of a society you want to live in. Do you want a society that cares only about those who can prove they are legally entitled to a benefit? If so, then you accept the necessary restrictions that that inevitably brings with as well as the suffering that this will cause to real human beings. One can eulogize that they 'bring this upon themselves' but that doesn't really change the fact that changing the ethical premise under which social services currently operate will result in real suffering and some of it to children who have no say in their situation.

I believe it would be very hard to the US to deny emergency care to someone based on their legal status and moreover it is going to be very difficult for the US to deny illegal immigrants social welfare if and when their sources of income dry up. Although it's convenient to think that they will just 'up and leave', I personally find that hard to believe. Some of course will, but many will not.

It's not a question of approving of their illegal status, but a question of what can be done without resorting to inhuman and invasion of privacy practices.

So, while the status quo is unfair on so many levels, I don't see it changing any time soon. Of course, I could be wrong and those who are into a 'me' culture may predominate but that would really suck.

Edited February 4, 2008 by Purple_Hibiscus

[HAL 9000 96]

Then don't visit our store since you're not even looking at the merchandise.

so you are saying i shouldn't be in this thread?

Charles, Charles -

You gotta admit, you take a pretty hardline stance on this issue. I think the analogy is - do you ever consider other points of view? Do you walk into the store at all and look around?

Why oh why does this issue have to be black or white? My way or the high way?

There's BOATLOADS of reasons the politicians haven't settled this issue before now - not the least of which is the fact that we are about to elect a new president. The pols realize there are constituents who want all the illegals put on the first bus back home. But that isn't going to happen!

and a hardline stance isn't an acceptable view? should i run for president of the kkk now?

Then don't visit our store since you're not even looking at the merchandise.

so you are saying i shouldn't be in this thread?

I love talking with you Charles... specially when its about the actual topic in the thread and by not skating the issue in circles. Unfortunately you're not interested.

Then don't visit our store since you're not even looking at the merchandise.

so you are saying i shouldn't be in this thread?

Now it is no longer a Family Based Immigration web site, it's a store....

No shirt, no shoes, no service....looks like you gotta go , Charles.

LOL... don't go Charles! buy something! Ask a question! Get to know the merchandise...

no interest. nor do we have to agree. got that yet?

And that's not being a hardheadline?? I mean, no interest in... debate... or no interest in actually getting to know others' opinions?

We agree, we disagree. Big deal.

At the end of the day you quit typing and have a loving wife. So do I. That is what ultimately matters.

[SteveLaura 0]

I can't believe that, after three days debating, the good people here on VJ haven't been able to come up with an agreement to solve this problem. Hmm, must be a more difficult problem than I thought.

[HAL 9000 96]

Then don't visit our store since you're not even looking at the merchandise.

so you are saying i shouldn't be in this thread?

Since you say you're a local, I'll illustrate some of the area hospitals I've picked human tissues from for my work:

He's in medicine ... must be talking about the harvesting of human parts to the highest bidder ....

Could it be that illegals are a source of supply?

They have to be dead to donate and the research is in metabolism.

i didn't know the dead had any metabolism..........

They still have cells that remain alive for some time. . . kind of creepy but true.

[natty bumppo 297]

So what's it going to be Charles? Humanitarian treatment of people already here or closing the border off. U pick.

like i said earlier, spare me the emotional appeal bs. it really trivializes anything you have to say and if your argument is solely based on that, then you've lost.

Like before you're skating the issue. Question still stands. Where do you want to take the argument? Being human here or closing the border off? U pick.

I can't speak for Charles but I can for myself. Close the border. As for being human what does that mean? Handing over all of our rights to people that do not have a right to them? I would give emergency care to someone that needs it but if your talking about free medical care to everyone regardless of status then the answer is no. Send them home and let their own country take care of them.

Good, Gary, good. This is what I'm after. I also believe that we can have a shred of human decency for those in need. Free medical care is something alltogether different. I'd let health care providers decide how much pro bono work they are willing to do on their own time. And I feel that while many MDs care little for pro bono work in treating a cold, others feel that they have an actual inclination to care for people. That's what makes them doctors.

To add into this thought ... stabalize the person (illegal alien) ... then send them back to their own country for further treatment. Immediate deportation for humanitarian purposes (to receive health care).

And what happens if the MDs decide they have done enough pro bono work ... and still illegals need treatment? Do we give the MDs pro bono time/ effort to illegals over the pro bono time for USCs?

This wouldn't be the first time I see a hospital close its doors to those in need, which is usually what happens when there are no more pro bono hours.

So ... illegals taking the pro bono hours away from USC ... is ok?

And ... you have no problem with the item highlighted in red above ? (as there was no comment made in regards to the statement)

[HAL 9000 96]

It all boils down to what kind of a society you want to live in. Do you want a society that cares only about those who can prove they are legally entitled to a benefit? If so, then you accept the necessary restrictions that that inevitably brings with as well as the suffering that this will cause to real human beings. One can eulogize that they 'bring this upon themselves' but that doesn't really change the fact that changing the ethical premise under which social services currently operate will result in real suffering and some of it to children who have no say in their situation.

I believe it would be very hard to the US to deny emergency care to someone based on their legal status and moreover it is going to be very difficult for the US to deny illegal immigrants social welfare if and when their sources of income dry up. Although it's convenient to think that they will just 'up and leave', I personally find that hard to believe. Some of course will, but many will not.

It's not a question of approving of their illegal status, but a question of what can be done without resorting to inhuman and invasion of privacy practices.

So, while the status quo is unfair on so many levels, I don't see it changing any time soon. Of course, I could be wrong and those who are into a 'me' culture may predominate but that would really suck.

Side issue-

Even poor Americans can get pro bono health care. Problem is there are more poor Americans than there are illegals and not all illegals get pro bono health care. This is a fundamental flaw in the health care disparity between those who can pay and those who can't and kicking illegals out and about is by no means going to improve access for the poor in this country. They'll still be poor in need of a government that actually gives a damn about their plight... and does something to prevent poverty instead of enriching the upper crust. Wealth is not evenly distributed but what is to be done? Socialism is obviously not even a remote option for all the taboos it raises in our financially egocentric society so... maybe a little more fair capitalism at home?

[Ban Hammer 13,360]

no interest. nor do we have to agree. got that yet?

And that's not being a hardheadline?? I mean, no interest in... debate... or no interest in actually getting to know others' opinions?

We agree, we disagree. Big deal.

At the end of the day you quit typing and have a loving wife. So do I. That is what ultimately matters.

nice edit. it's interesting that everyone has to see your pov, but you don't have to see anyone elses.

[rebeccajo 14]

Then don't visit our store since you're not even looking at the merchandise.

so you are saying i shouldn't be in this thread?

Charles, Charles -

You gotta admit, you take a pretty hardline stance on this issue. I think the analogy is - do you ever consider other points of view? Do you walk into the store at all and look around?

Why oh why does this issue have to be black or white? My way or the high way?

There's BOATLOADS of reasons the politicians haven't settled this issue before now - not the least of which is the fact that we are about to elect a new president. The pols realize there are constituents who want all the illegals put on the first bus back home. But that isn't going to happen!

and a hardline stance isn't an acceptable view? should i run for president of the kkk now?

I know you're annoyed. I wasn't trying to ratchet you up.

I'm asking an honest question here.

People see me post in threads about EWI's and I can tell - by the immediate response I get - oh there she is again - illegal lover. It might be unnecessary 'soul baring' for this crowd, but that really upsets me. I've spent a lot of time reading and learning about this issue. I'm not an 'illegal lover' at all and I don't believe most of the posters in 'my camp' are either.

I get the impression 'the other camp' doesn't think we read the links put up for us. As far as me personally, that couldn't be further from the truth. There is much fact in 'hardline' data. I read the links you all put up for me. I don't immediately discount them. I do look behind the source of that data as well.

As for my comment yesterday about the Klan - when someone chooses to try and reduce another persons argument to a racial quotient, that is racism in my book. Or at the very least immaturity.

My biggest concerns with amnesty legislation are any 'peripheral' legislation that will come off of it. I'm concerned about what our government will do limiting current levels of legal immigration. I'm concerned they will further limit the family categories. I'm concerned we will start 'picking and choosing' our immigrants. I'm concerned about the happiness of future couples like Wes and I - you and Nessa. I get very nervous when the government starts messing with that.

That stuff DOES matter in the context of any discussion about amnesty. Why? Because over and over again - at least in the recent historical past - whenever legislators have addressed the issue of amnesty it has overflowed to what and who is admissible legally.

I'm not a proponent of illegal entry or rewarding those people. But I do get nervous when we start picking who is entitled to what services in our country, etc.

Soooooooo.....if you walked 'into the store' you might see why some of us don't jump up and down on the 'deport them' bandwagon.

And that's all I'm sayin...............

Edited February 4, 2008 by rebeccajo