Hillary: Those who want to deport illegals are "living in some other universe"

[PlatyPius 5]

The problem here is completely self-feeding.

People like paying lower prices.

Manufacturers like making more money.

Retailers like Wal-Mart lowered the price on items so much that we started to accept that as a normal price.

Because of pressure from retailers like Wal-Mart (actually, a LOT of it was from Wal-Mart....it's amazing the amount of clout they have in the marketplace) to lower prices even further, production went to the cheapest country possible. Therefore, jobs were lost in the US. Ergo, the squeeze got tighter for cheaper items. More items were manufactured in China, Mexico, etc. More jobs were lost. Repeat as necessary. Fewer dollars in the marketplace = even fewer jobs available = recession.

Don't forget that when a factory moves production to China, it isn't just the unskilled people who are out of a job. IT people, managers, HR people, Accountants, etc are all out of a job.

We (US) will keep pushing for the cheapest, crappiest items we can get. Back in the 70s, cheap bikes were made in Japan. American bikes were "expensive", Italian bicycles were REALLY expensive, but Japan could make Nishikis, Centurions, etc for next to nothing. Then their quality got better. Then their employees started getting paid more. Then we stopped buying them. So, production moved to Taiwan. In the 80s, that meant cheap, department store bikes. Roadmaster, that kinda thing. Then major manufacturers started sourcing bikes from Taiwan (Giant Bicycles built most of them) for their cheap models. Then they started building bikes better in Taiwan. The employees started making more money because they were efficient and skilled. By the late 90s - 2001, most bikes were made in Taiwan. So, they pulled out of Taiwan. Now China makes most lower-end bicycles ($300 and below). They're #######. Just like the Taiwan ones were originally. And the Japanese ones. But in the last year or so, some of the mid-range bikes have come out of China. Where are they going to move to next? We have to have our cheap crappy bikes, and no one can afford to buy much else these days. What country will we use for slave labour after China? Kenya?

If companies would move back here, everything would all balance out, eventually. Pay the bike frame builders, assembly people, etc a decent wage, charge a fair price for the bike, and people would buy them. Why? Because those people would have jobs, or would somehow benefit from others who have jobs. If Americans have money, they'll spend it. They can't spend it if they don't have jobs. They don't have jobs because they can't afford to buy anything, so manufacturing goes overseas. ad infinitum.

Sorry if none of that makes sense.... I've been typing off and on for a while now - keep getting distracted...

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

Platy,

Sounds similar to the "Good Enough" school of software development

[Sofargone 2]

#######? this is a serious question. why are there some people that are so against unskilled American & legal immigrants having a chance at a job w/o having to except lower wages to compete w/ illegal immigrants? i don't understand it. these laws are being put in place to protect the middle & lower class.

hmm 30min. & not 1 answer to the question

Smoke I dont recall seeing any against what you have posted. the lower wage issues are prevelant in more than a few industries that are directly affect by the flood of illegal immigrants. Just take a gander at the construction industry in the southwest. It is pretty hard for people to compete for a decent living wage when you have employers that skirt the labor laws and pay substandard wages. Now I dont blame those "illegals" as they are just trying to make a living also and their $8hr is like gold to them. But what is happening is alot of people are being brought down to that level as long as wages are stagnant and/or decrease.

Sofargone

show me a construction worker that gets paid $8 an hour & i'll show you an illegal not paying taxes on that money. apprentice construction workers (newbies)are paid $9-$11 here in Oklahoma. journeyman workers are roughly $15-$30 or more for scale jobs. (gov't contract, schools, powerplants, etc.) depending on their field..considering the cost of living is usually higher in the SW than it is here. i seriously doubt newbies are being paid $8 to start. but, even if the $8 were accurate it should be going to feed & house people who are suppose to be here. not illegals.

Well Smoke you have never lived in the southwest I see. Mention of Apprentice and Journeyman leads me to believe your talking union wages which would be correct. Maybe you misunderstand what I was saying as $8 hr is pretty prevelant in the construction industry around the Phoenix area. Some are getting it legally and some are getting it under the table and alot them are illegals. When you have the housing slump that is festering now you have alot of builders who will hire lower skilled and lower paid workes so they can maximize profits. It really shows in the quality of homes as who wants to pay a skilled worker who has been thru an apprenticeship when they can hire 2 pedro's to do the same work although substandard.

Sofargone

[PlatyPius 5]

Platy,

Sounds similar to the "Good Enough" school of software development

You stole my damn job! Damn brown people.

Seriously....Indiana being as poor as it is, and companies in India offering full php e-commerce web sites for $47.18 complete, I don't have a chance of getting a job around here any longer. Hence, me working at the bicycle shop. lol

I'd love to do web design again, but I can't afford to live if I build sites for what they charge in India....

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

Platy,

Sounds similar to the "Good Enough" school of software development

You stole my damn job! Damn brown people.

Seriously....Indiana being as poor as it is, and companies in India offering full php e-commerce web sites for $47.18 complete, I don't have a chance of getting a job around here any longer. Hence, me working at the bicycle shop. lol

I'd love to do web design again, but I can't afford to live if I build sites for what they charge in India....

I hear ya. A lot of the web dev work at my employer is done offshore now as well. We're transitioning our senior tech guys into project management/coordination type roles and laying off the kids. It's sad but it's life. AIG is doing it, MetLife is doing it, if we don't, they'll make more money than we do and "the street" won't buy our stock. Fact of life.

You're a senior guy with quite a bit of experience, if you're willing to put on a tie and spend your last days buried in spreadsheets and teleconferences, there's plenty of work around here.

[PlatyPius 5]

Platy,

Sounds similar to the "Good Enough" school of software development

You stole my damn job! Damn brown people.

Seriously....Indiana being as poor as it is, and companies in India offering full php e-commerce web sites for $47.18 complete, I don't have a chance of getting a job around here any longer. Hence, me working at the bicycle shop. lol

I'd love to do web design again, but I can't afford to live if I build sites for what they charge in India....

I hear ya. A lot of the web dev work at my employer is done offshore now as well. We're transitioning our senior tech guys into project management/coordination type roles and laying off the kids. It's sad but it's life. AIG is doing it, MetLife is doing it, if we don't, they'll make more money than we do and "the street" won't buy our stock. Fact of life.

You're a senior guy with quite a bit of experience, if you're willing to put on a tie and spend your last days buried in spreadsheets and teleconferences, there's plenty of work around here.

Money's nice....but ya know what? I prefer working at the bike shop. It's low stress. It's something I really enjoy. It gives me flexibility to do other stuff (like RAGBRAI in July). Plus...Platy don't wear no ties. No nooses for me, thanks. I panic and freak out.

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

Money's nice....but ya know what? I prefer working at the bike shop. It's low stress. It's something I really enjoy. It gives me flexibility to do other stuff (like RAGBRAI in July). Plus...Platy don't wear no ties. No nooses for me, thanks. I panic and freak out.

That's cool.

I spend the first hour of every day fiddling with my tie. I've been wearing it for years and I'm still not used to it.

[PlatyPius 5]

Money's nice....but ya know what? I prefer working at the bike shop. It's low stress. It's something I really enjoy. It gives me flexibility to do other stuff (like RAGBRAI in July). Plus...Platy don't wear no ties. No nooses for me, thanks. I panic and freak out.

That's cool.

I spend the first hour of every day fiddling with my tie. I've been wearing it for years and I'm still not used to it.

So would you say you're more like Wally, Dilbert, Asok, or Dogbert? Hmmm?

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

Money's nice....but ya know what? I prefer working at the bike shop. It's low stress. It's something I really enjoy. It gives me flexibility to do other stuff (like RAGBRAI in July). Plus...Platy don't wear no ties. No nooses for me, thanks. I panic and freak out.

That's cool.

I spend the first hour of every day fiddling with my tie. I've been wearing it for years and I'm still not used to it.

So would you say you're more like Wally, Dilbert, Asok, or Dogbert? Hmmm?

Wally.

[PlatyPius 5]

Money's nice....but ya know what? I prefer working at the bike shop. It's low stress. It's something I really enjoy. It gives me flexibility to do other stuff (like RAGBRAI in July). Plus...Platy don't wear no ties. No nooses for me, thanks. I panic and freak out.

That's cool.

I spend the first hour of every day fiddling with my tie. I've been wearing it for years and I'm still not used to it.

So would you say you're more like Wally, Dilbert, Asok, or Dogbert? Hmmm?

Wally.

Good man, good man.

On an interesting side note, the servers for the state of Indiana are named after Dilbert characters.

So are my computers. I'm currently typing this on Asok. Dilbert is my laptop. Catbert is the PC downstairs where Mags does her modding thing. Jordan's PC is Wally. I couldn't resist that one. (Brits will get it)

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

On an interesting side note, the servers for the state of Indiana are named after Dilbert characters.

So are my computers. I'm currently typing this on Asok. Dilbert is my laptop. Catbert is the PC downstairs where Mags does her modding thing. Jordan's PC is Wally. I couldn't resist that one. (Brits will get it)

How do you pronounce Asok? I've heard many different ways people say it. Some say A-sawk, some say uh-sawk, some uh-sok.

[PlatyPius 5]

A-shook

(pronounced "a-shook") is an intern and an Indian American in the Dilbert comic strip. He is a brilliant graduate from the Indian Institute of Technology. The character is named after a friend and co-worker of strip creator Scott Adams at Pacific Bell. "Asok" is a common Indian name, though it is usually spelled "Ashok" and pronounced "Ah-shoke".

Edited February 2, 2008 by PlatyPius

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

Cool.

[HAL 9000 96]

My lab is right across from the adult ER and kitty corner to the children's ER... wait... let me see...

Nope... no illegals in sight!

And these anchor babies you so eloquently mention... according to US Law they are USC. Therefore, since you fail to dignify a fellow human being the due respect they deserve as a human being in favor on Red Blooded American Citizens, then at least afford innocent children the respect they deserve according to your xenophobic view of our nation of immigrants.

So lets see... instead of opening up a pillbox of complaints, we should be focusing on creating solutions to the problems that continue to create the scenarios of Hispanics by the bushel in Forest Preserves you so vehemently abhor and clogged ER you see on a daily basis.

Then again, my sister and brother in law just so happen to be ER doctors in an area that services plenty of farm workers. Lets see what they tell me about how clogged their ERs really are. From what I've been told so far, the clogging comes from our own citizens that don't know how to use preventive medicine.

I'm sorry but I have difficulty in following your post as the english isn't very good. Perhaps if you repost using smaller words?

A sentence constructed such as the one that follows frankly makes no sense (in english):

"instead of opening up a pillbox of complaints, we should be focusing on creating solutions to the problems that continue to create the scenarios of Hispanics by the bushel in Forest Preserves you so vehemently abhor and clogged ER you see on a daily basis."

Please clarify. Remember, punctuation your friend!

If the sentence is too complex maybe an English course at COD would do you a world of good. Otherwise the request for clarification is nothing but an an attempt at obfuscation of the writing on the wall.

Do enjoy the snow though... I'm thinking looking for the droves of Hispanics out in the burbs to report back. Maybe they all went skiing?

[garya505 2]

I have a question too. For those that don't support legalization of illegal immigrants, how exactly are we going to round them all up and send them home? I for one am not thrilled about an amnesty but I'm also realistic and don't see how they are going find all these people and send them home. It seems like the longer we take to find a solution to this problem the more out of hand it gets.

JP the main problem with the so called immigration "path to citizenship" programs is those who are here already have absolutely no incentive to start obeying the law. I hope people dont think that these "fines" they keep referring to will actually be collected. Then we absorb them into all kinds of social programs for which they have never paid into SS,Medicare and so on and its quite the drain on a already shaky system.

i would think that those without a crimminal record should be allowed the chance to leave and then apply for and be granted re-entry. Those with crimminal records and/or disease issues should be barred forever. But the problem is they are already here and have no incentive to start obeying now.

Sofargone

Actually we could give them an incentive. If the border was secured and the temporary worker program was fixed/expanded, everyone now illegally here and working would already have a sponsor for their VISA (assuming they are in good standing with their employer), something people outside the US are much less likely to have. All they gotta do is stay out of trouble and apply for re-entry. Those with a criminal record need not apply, but the playing field is level for anyone applying, here legally or not. The path to citizenship is the same as it is, and no special category is created for those currently here illegally.