HillaryCare- The Dark Side

[Mags 112]

Food production shouldn't just be left in the hands of big business. You only have to look at what passes for food these days to see that.

HFCS in everything, anyone?

Ugh, makes me cringe, it really does.

[Ban Hammer 13,342]

A road sign points the way to nearby towns Clinton and Prosperity in Newberry, South Carolina, January 25, 2008.

Edited January 30, 2008 by charlesandnessa

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Without a profit incentive the research is slow and expensive. And the number of innovations out of the countries that have socialist health care has dwindled to a trickle since they adopted the system.

Are you saying that little medical innovation has come from European countries, Japan, Australia, New Zealand, and Canada? All those places have a form of universal health care for citizens and residents. I dare say that the U.S. isn't the only country producing new treatments, devices, and meds.

You're right. The United States isn't the only one producing new treatments, devices and medications. In fact, many new drugs are actually created outside the U.S. due to cheaper costs. However, the companies than pay to have these very same drugs made are American.

It might also be worth noting that the U.S. leads the world in medical technology. Canada, for instance, has fewer MRI machines in it's entire country than the city of Atlanta, GA in the United States. Some might ask how having numerous devices equals better medical care. In some ways, it doesn't. Not every patient needs a battery of tests performed, but when they do... the U.S. shines through. Having the technology available means a much greater chance of catching potential (and current) problems in an expedient manner; in Canada, the lack of MRIs would most likely mean a very long waiting time for patients, which could lead to developments in disease.

For all the Canadians on the board, I don't mean to pick on Canada. My SO is from there, so rest assured, I really do like the country a lot. I just happen to have the data on Canada and MRIs, so it works. I would have used the UK or Germany or any other country just as readily.

Actually Japan is the leader in medical technology. But then technology doesn't nessiarly mean healthier population.

That's true - and it is troubling that for all its technology, that the US as a nation still has disproportionately high infant mortality rates, and low life-expectancy compared with other developed nations.

I can't help but think that the healthcare system is one of the reasons for that.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Food production shouldn't just be left in the hands of big business. You only have to look at what passes for food these days to see that.

HFCS in everything, anyone?

Ugh, makes me cringe, it really does.

No wonder the fast food co's are fighting tooth and nail to appeal the court ruling that they have to display nutritional info on their menus.

[Mags 112]

Food production shouldn't just be left in the hands of big business. You only have to look at what passes for food these days to see that.

HFCS in everything, anyone?

Ugh, makes me cringe, it really does.

No wonder the fast food co's are fighting tooth and nail to appeal the court ruling that they have to display nutritional info on their menus.

Actually, many of the places do have a nutritional chart posted in their restaurants. Obviously I don't know if all of them do, but there are certainly quite a few that have this info there to see.

Edited January 30, 2008 by Mags

[Peikko 1,575]

We also know that people who don't eat a nutritionally sound diet end up sick which relates back to health care.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Food production shouldn't just be left in the hands of big business. You only have to look at what passes for food these days to see that.

HFCS in everything, anyone?

Ugh, makes me cringe, it really does.

No wonder the fast food co's are fighting tooth and nail to appeal the court ruling that they have to display nutritional info on their menus.

Actually, many of the places do have a nutritional chart posted in their restaurants. Obviously I don't know if all of them do, but there are certainly quite a few that have this info there to see.

There was a thing on NPR recently that there is now a law to make this mandatory across the board - it used to be a voluntary arrangement which was made compulsory to those restaurant chains who had already been doing it voluntarily. Now they all have to do it - if they have at least 15 locations, if I remember rightly.

[GaryC 7]

It is the people in the middle that really have the hardest time. When I made 6 dollars an hour managing a small grocery store for a Korean family is when I didn't have any health care. But these jobs are only a stepping stone. The real goal is to keep a vibrant economy through low taxes and limited government so the people can move up the ladder to the next level.

If you get your wish, I hope you enjoy working at that grocery store, as that is likely where you would stay. Low taxes do not help the average citizen. It may encourage economic growth, but it will be to the benefit of the wealthy, not the society.

You might want to take a look at history. There are reasons why many of the progressive programs were created. Why unions organized. And why we regulate companies and the economy. Maybe you prefer to go back to the world where an average person worked 60-80 hours a week, and just barely had enough money to survive. Asking for a raise, either got you fired, or in some cases killed.

But over time, because of the social programs, unions, and regulation of the economy, workers were able to work a 40 hour week, and actually have a decent standard of living. But ever since Regan took office, with the promise of smaller government, lower taxes and all that. That ideal has been lost. There are now many working poor, who work 2-3 jobs, and still hardly make enough to feed themselves or their families. Working professionals, while getting paid more, are expected to work 60+ plus weeks with no overtime. Not doing so, gets you first on the list to be let go, when the company needs to make cuts.

Yep. Laissez-faire economics is just pie in the sky and most of them know it. It baffles me that so many non-wealthy Americans buy into that bunk. It'd be a great, gee golly swell country if a truly free market economy existed but it never has and never will. It's childish to continue believing in such rubbish.

Free markets is what made this country great. Every time the government tried to regulate it there was economic disaster. Do you remember the price controls of the 70's? I can't believe intelligent people buy into the bunk that low taxes and a free market is bad for the common people and only help the rich. That is a myth started by the "progressives" that want to control everything we do. The more regulation the more people come to depend on government to solve their problems. That is wrong in a free society.

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

Free markets is what made this country great

Actually, no. Mexicans swimming across the border and free porn are what made this country great.

[Pinocchio Liberal 268]

A road sign points the way to nearby towns Clinton and Prosperity in Newberry, South Carolina, January 25, 2008.

After the visit

[one...two...tree 2,762]

Food production shouldn't just be left in the hands of big business. You only have to look at what passes for food these days to see that.

HFCS in everything, anyone?

Ugh, makes me cringe, it really does.

OT: ...but speaking of HFCS, a couple of weeks ago, I bought a six pack of Hanson's Mandarin Lime soda because on the cans they are promoting that they are using pure cane sugar and no HFCS! That's fantastic! Also, we went to a local Mexican food restaurant and they had Coke in bottles from Mexico so no HFCS! And then...we were at an Asian Market the other day and I looked at the Nutella Jar they sell and it's the Canadian version....no hydrogenated vegetable oils, no HFCS, and only hazelnuts...no peanuts! Hopefully food companies are taking notice of what consumers want.

[Dan J 277]

It is the people in the middle that really have the hardest time. When I made 6 dollars an hour managing a small grocery store for a Korean family is when I didn't have any health care. But these jobs are only a stepping stone. The real goal is to keep a vibrant economy through low taxes and limited government so the people can move up the ladder to the next level.

If you get your wish, I hope you enjoy working at that grocery store, as that is likely where you would stay. Low taxes do not help the average citizen. It may encourage economic growth, but it will be to the benefit of the wealthy, not the society.

You might want to take a look at history. There are reasons why many of the progressive programs were created. Why unions organized. And why we regulate companies and the economy. Maybe you prefer to go back to the world where an average person worked 60-80 hours a week, and just barely had enough money to survive. Asking for a raise, either got you fired, or in some cases killed.

But over time, because of the social programs, unions, and regulation of the economy, workers were able to work a 40 hour week, and actually have a decent standard of living. But ever since Regan took office, with the promise of smaller government, lower taxes and all that. That ideal has been lost. There are now many working poor, who work 2-3 jobs, and still hardly make enough to feed themselves or their families. Working professionals, while getting paid more, are expected to work 60+ plus weeks with no overtime. Not doing so, gets you first on the list to be let go, when the company needs to make cuts.

Yep. Laissez-faire economics is just pie in the sky and most of them know it. It baffles me that so many non-wealthy Americans buy into that bunk. It'd be a great, gee golly swell country if a truly free market economy existed but it never has and never will. It's childish to continue believing in such rubbish.

Free markets is what made this country great. Every time the government tried to regulate it there was economic disaster. Do you remember the price controls of the 70's? I can't believe intelligent people buy into the bunk that low taxes and a free market is bad for the common people and only help the rich. That is a myth started by the "progressives" that want to control everything we do. The more regulation the more people come to depend on government to solve their problems. That is wrong in a free society.

Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

Food production shouldn't just be left in the hands of big business. You only have to look at what passes for food these days to see that.

HFCS in everything, anyone?

Ugh, makes me cringe, it really does.

OT: ...but speaking of HFCS, a couple of weeks ago, I bought a six pack of Hanson's Mandarin Lime soda because on the cans they are promoting that they are using pure cane sugar and no HFCS! That's fantastic! Also, we went to a local Mexican food restaurant and they had Coke in bottles from Mexico so no HFCS! And then...we were at an Asian Market the other day and I looked at the Nutella Jar they sell and it's the Canadian version....no hydrogenated vegetable oils, no HFCS, and only hazelnuts...no peanuts! Hopefully food companies are taking notice of what consumers want.

I pretty much avoid anything with HFCS, well when I can anyway.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

It is the people in the middle that really have the hardest time. When I made 6 dollars an hour managing a small grocery store for a Korean family is when I didn't have any health care. But these jobs are only a stepping stone. The real goal is to keep a vibrant economy through low taxes and limited government so the people can move up the ladder to the next level.

If you get your wish, I hope you enjoy working at that grocery store, as that is likely where you would stay. Low taxes do not help the average citizen. It may encourage economic growth, but it will be to the benefit of the wealthy, not the society.

You might want to take a look at history. There are reasons why many of the progressive programs were created. Why unions organized. And why we regulate companies and the economy. Maybe you prefer to go back to the world where an average person worked 60-80 hours a week, and just barely had enough money to survive. Asking for a raise, either got you fired, or in some cases killed.

But over time, because of the social programs, unions, and regulation of the economy, workers were able to work a 40 hour week, and actually have a decent standard of living. But ever since Regan took office, with the promise of smaller government, lower taxes and all that. That ideal has been lost. There are now many working poor, who work 2-3 jobs, and still hardly make enough to feed themselves or their families. Working professionals, while getting paid more, are expected to work 60+ plus weeks with no overtime. Not doing so, gets you first on the list to be let go, when the company needs to make cuts.

Yep. Laissez-faire economics is just pie in the sky and most of them know it. It baffles me that so many non-wealthy Americans buy into that bunk. It'd be a great, gee golly swell country if a truly free market economy existed but it never has and never will. It's childish to continue believing in such rubbish.

Free markets is what made this country great. Every time the government tried to regulate it there was economic disaster. Do you remember the price controls of the 70's? I can't believe intelligent people buy into the bunk that low taxes and a free market is bad for the common people and only help the rich. That is a myth started by the "progressives" that want to control everything we do. The more regulation the more people come to depend on government to solve their problems. That is wrong in a free society.

Privatisation of an industry is all well and good - but it has to be tempered with some sort of regulation or oversight... Otherwise you end up with the kind of situation that happened to the UK rail network where cutting corners resulted in public safety being compromised.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

It is the people in the middle that really have the hardest time. When I made 6 dollars an hour managing a small grocery store for a Korean family is when I didn't have any health care. But these jobs are only a stepping stone. The real goal is to keep a vibrant economy through low taxes and limited government so the people can move up the ladder to the next level.

If you get your wish, I hope you enjoy working at that grocery store, as that is likely where you would stay. Low taxes do not help the average citizen. It may encourage economic growth, but it will be to the benefit of the wealthy, not the society.

You might want to take a look at history. There are reasons why many of the progressive programs were created. Why unions organized. And why we regulate companies and the economy. Maybe you prefer to go back to the world where an average person worked 60-80 hours a week, and just barely had enough money to survive. Asking for a raise, either got you fired, or in some cases killed.

But over time, because of the social programs, unions, and regulation of the economy, workers were able to work a 40 hour week, and actually have a decent standard of living. But ever since Regan took office, with the promise of smaller government, lower taxes and all that. That ideal has been lost. There are now many working poor, who work 2-3 jobs, and still hardly make enough to feed themselves or their families. Working professionals, while getting paid more, are expected to work 60+ plus weeks with no overtime. Not doing so, gets you first on the list to be let go, when the company needs to make cuts.

Yep. Laissez-faire economics is just pie in the sky and most of them know it. It baffles me that so many non-wealthy Americans buy into that bunk. It'd be a great, gee golly swell country if a truly free market economy existed but it never has and never will. It's childish to continue believing in such rubbish.

Free markets is what made this country great. Every time the government tried to regulate it there was economic disaster. Do you remember the price controls of the 70's? I can't believe intelligent people buy into the bunk that low taxes and a free market is bad for the common people and only help the rich. That is a myth started by the "progressives" that want to control everything we do. The more regulation the more people come to depend on government to solve their problems. That is wrong in a free society.

Over-regulation can be bad as under-regulation, Gary. What caused the Great Depression? You cannot ignore the facts. A market needs oversight, it needs transparency. Just look at what is going in with Wall Street and what happened with Citigroup. You gotta stop thinking in extremes.

[GaryC 7]

It is the people in the middle that really have the hardest time. When I made 6 dollars an hour managing a small grocery store for a Korean family is when I didn't have any health care. But these jobs are only a stepping stone. The real goal is to keep a vibrant economy through low taxes and limited government so the people can move up the ladder to the next level.

If you get your wish, I hope you enjoy working at that grocery store, as that is likely where you would stay. Low taxes do not help the average citizen. It may encourage economic growth, but it will be to the benefit of the wealthy, not the society.

You might want to take a look at history. There are reasons why many of the progressive programs were created. Why unions organized. And why we regulate companies and the economy. Maybe you prefer to go back to the world where an average person worked 60-80 hours a week, and just barely had enough money to survive. Asking for a raise, either got you fired, or in some cases killed.

But over time, because of the social programs, unions, and regulation of the economy, workers were able to work a 40 hour week, and actually have a decent standard of living. But ever since Regan took office, with the promise of smaller government, lower taxes and all that. That ideal has been lost. There are now many working poor, who work 2-3 jobs, and still hardly make enough to feed themselves or their families. Working professionals, while getting paid more, are expected to work 60+ plus weeks with no overtime. Not doing so, gets you first on the list to be let go, when the company needs to make cuts.

Yep. Laissez-faire economics is just pie in the sky and most of them know it. It baffles me that so many non-wealthy Americans buy into that bunk. It'd be a great, gee golly swell country if a truly free market economy existed but it never has and never will. It's childish to continue believing in such rubbish.

Free markets is what made this country great. Every time the government tried to regulate it there was economic disaster. Do you remember the price controls of the 70's? I can't believe intelligent people buy into the bunk that low taxes and a free market is bad for the common people and only help the rich. That is a myth started by the "progressives" that want to control everything we do. The more regulation the more people come to depend on government to solve their problems. That is wrong in a free society.

Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

Yeah your right. The government trying to regulate the economy through artificial price controls made life bad for everyone. People should remember that.