Hamas shut off the power to Palestine

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

the cut and paste hack jobs here are just as pointless and ridiculous. this rubbish isn't worth the theoretical electronic space it inhabits.

Apparently, some people don't have enough of a grasp on the subject to even write their own material.

[simple_male 1]

That's a fair question - but I do have to ask why they make no mention of Christian repression is given. The fact is that while the Jews did not experience 'equality' in the muslim world during the middle-ages, there was much more repression going on in the Christian countries of Europe.

The Christian countries of Europe have evolved, while the Muslim world remained in the middle ages.

Yeah - that old chestnut again...

I don't disagree BTW - but that's not really the point I'm making. Some folks here don't seem to have a problem with using distortive interpretations of history to "prove" that muslims have been "savage" since the year dot, while completely ignoring the fact that as far as Jewish tolerance goes - the Christian nations during the middle ages were a lot more repressive.

Sorry - but it just isn't honest.

You don't even have to go that far. The Holocaust happened only 60 years ago, in a civilized,

democratic European nation with a great constitution.

Which pretty much illustrates why the Jews need their own homeland. There hasn't been a more oppressed people that ever lived. They need their own country to stop this constant oppression. Since that part of the mid-east is their ancestral homeland it only stands to reason that is where it should be. The Palestinians really don't have a long term claim to the land anyway. The just happened to be there when Israel was created.

So were the Muslims and Arabs responsbile for the holocaust? Your posts were only blaming Muslims and Arabs for persecution. I agree, Jews need homeland. But isn't it better to make peace with it Arab neighbors? Arab League 2002 Peace Plan asks for full recognition of Israel by all Arab States in exchange for Israel's going back to pre 1967 borders. So it is ok to kick the Palesnian people out of their homes to create a state? Would you agree, if someone wants to kick you out of your home, because they want to live there?

Edited February 13, 2008 by simple_male

[♥JP♥ 5]

See this is just point that I never agree with. I don't think the Jews have more of a right to Israel because they were there first. I'm christian, therefore at some point my great great great ancestors were Jewish. Does that mean I have rights too? I don't think millions of Jews immigrating from all over the world to live in Israel have any roots there. I mean to go all the way back to the beginning of time to claim rights to land is a rather lame argument. If you want to do that, every border in the world would be disputed.

Look I think that I and many here have stated that we don't support Hamas in anyway but can someone please tell me why supporting Palistinian people = supporting Hamas? Without sarcasm and without dismissing Arabs as human beings as many have done here. Many of the anti-Arab people here have yet to answer a question that has been posted without cutting and pasting ####### from other websites. I can log on to a website if I wish, but if you want to have a discussion then discuss don't post ####### from websites that no one cares about.

[Risto 0]

See this is just point that I never agree with. I don't think the Jews have more of a right to Israel because they were there first. I'm christian, therefore at some point my great great great ancestors were Jewish. Does that mean I have rights too? I don't think millions of Jews immigrating from all over the world to live in Israel have any roots there. I mean to go all the way back to the beginning of time to claim rights to land is a rather lame argument. If you want to do that, every border in the world would be disputed.

Look I think that I and many here have stated that we don't support Hamas in anyway but can someone please tell me why supporting Palistinian people = supporting Hamas? Without sarcasm and without dismissing Arabs as human beings as many have done here. Many of the anti-Arab people here have yet to answer a question that has been posted without cutting and pasting ####### from other websites. I can log on to a website if I wish, but if you want to have a discussion then discuss don't post ####### from websites that no one cares about.

Israel has been concurred 12 times in the last 2000 years, and no one claim the country as thier own, untill the Arab who came from the surrounding countries called themself Palestinians, wants to be the 24th Arab state.

[sandinista! 1,816]

i fail to understand what these catalogues of medieval events have to do with anything now, when those on the other side of the argument have argued that zionist terrorism doesn't count or isn't condemnable because it happened "so long ago". nor does a single poster on this thread's ancestry not have equal or worse history. if i were to say that it would be entirely righteous for every native american in this country to use terrorism to re-establish their ancestral homelands here, on the basis that they have "more right to it" and i started bringing up bartolome de las casas' 15th century accounts of rape, murder and torture on hispaniola, and on and on and on, i would be laughed right off the board, and rightly so. the cut and paste hack jobs here are just as pointless and ridiculous. this rubbish isn't worth the theoretical electronic space it inhabits.

so "His anger at the Jews was principally fueled by their refusal to recognize him as a prophet but was further enhanced by their economic superiority."? samuel rosenblatt, in his Essays on Anti-Semitism, says that it was only when "the Jews that lived in the Arabian Peninsula began to secretly connive with Muhammad's enemies in Mecca to overthrow him (despite their having signed a peace treaty), that they were attacked. These incidents were not part of policies directed exclusively against Jews, and Muhammad was far more severe with his pagan Arab kinsmen than foreigner monotheists." but it's soooo much more intriguing to paint it as anti-semitism than as a punitive event motivated by the treachery of signing a peace treaty whilst conspiring war.

That's a fair question - but I do have to ask why they make no mention of Christian repression is given. The fact is that while the Jews did not experience 'equality' in the muslim world during the middle-ages, there was much more repression going on in the Christian countries of Europe.

i think i can guess why..."A British Tory will defend self-determination in Europe and oppose it in India with no feeling of inconsistency. Actions are held to be good or bad, not on their own merits, but according to who does them, and there is almost no kind of outrage -- torture, the use of hostages, forced labour, mass deportations, imprisonment without trial, forgery, assassination, the bombing of civilians -- which does not change its moral colour when it is committed by "our" side."

yr completely right, and it was not lost on me that none of these cut and paste hacks mentioned the fact that the sultan of morocco refused to turn over moroccan jews to vichy-controlled france, while vichy france participated quite happily. or that the iranian ambassador to vichy france gave 500 french jews iranian passports and thus saved them from the nazis. or in albania, a country whose population is majority muslim, sheltered escaping jews in numbers very disproportionate to other occupied places in europe. expulsion from arab countries does not equate to auschwitz or russian pogroms. wrong as it was, there was a war going on at the time of the expulsion. and this period of time saw no shortage of despicable behavior during wars. maybe they should have put them in detainment camps, like the us did to japanese americans. but i wonder if an arab wrote a book in defense of that if he or she would be as famous among conservatives in the us today as michelle malkin is. somehow i seriously doubt it...

[sandinista! 1,816]

That's a fair question - but I do have to ask why they make no mention of Christian repression is given. The fact is that while the Jews did not experience 'equality' in the muslim world during the middle-ages, there was much more repression going on in the Christian countries of Europe.

The Christian countries of Europe have evolved, while the Muslim world remained in the middle ages.

Yeah - that old chestnut again...

I don't disagree BTW - but that's not really the point I'm making. Some folks here don't seem to have a problem with using distortive interpretations of history to "prove" that muslims have been "savage" since the year dot, while completely ignoring the fact that as far as Jewish tolerance goes - the Christian nations during the middle ages were a lot more repressive.

Sorry - but it just isn't honest.

You don't even have to go that far. The Holocaust happened only 60 years ago, in a civilized,

democratic European nation with a great constitution.

Which pretty much illustrates why the Jews need their own homeland. There hasn't been a more oppressed people that ever lived. They need their own country to stop this constant oppression. Since that part of the mid-east is their ancestral homeland it only stands to reason that is where it should be. The Palestinians really don't have a long term claim to the land anyway. The just happened to be there when Israel was created.

how about you put your money where your mouth is, and give up your home and property here in the us so it can be given to the ancestors of the original inhabitants of that land. indigenous peoples in the us were horrifically oppressed and slaughtered with impunity for hundreds of years, and a good deal of them live in complete and abject poverty and despair today. it's THEIR homeland, and there's only been a united states since 1776. that's a mere blip in time compared to arab presence in the levant. if that's a reasonable policy for others, it should be equally reasonable and applicable to yourself.

[Nagishkaw 510]

That's a fair question - but I do have to ask why they make no mention of Christian repression is given. The fact is that while the Jews did not experience 'equality' in the muslim world during the middle-ages, there was much more repression going on in the Christian countries of Europe.

The Christian countries of Europe have evolved, while the Muslim world remained in the middle ages.

Yeah - that old chestnut again...

I don't disagree BTW - but that's not really the point I'm making. Some folks here don't seem to have a problem with using distortive interpretations of history to "prove" that muslims have been "savage" since the year dot, while completely ignoring the fact that as far as Jewish tolerance goes - the Christian nations during the middle ages were a lot more repressive.

Sorry - but it just isn't honest.

You don't even have to go that far. The Holocaust happened only 60 years ago, in a civilized,

democratic European nation with a great constitution.

Which pretty much illustrates why the Jews need their own homeland. There hasn't been a more oppressed people that ever lived. They need their own country to stop this constant oppression. Since that part of the mid-east is their ancestral homeland it only stands to reason that is where it should be. The Palestinians really don't have a long term claim to the land anyway. The just happened to be there when Israel was created.

how about you put your money where your mouth is, and give up your home and property here in the us so it can be given to the ancestors of the original inhabitants of that land. indigenous peoples in the us were horrifically oppressed and slaughtered with impunity for hundreds of years, and a good deal of them live in complete and abject poverty and despair today. it's THEIR homeland, and there's only been a united states since 1776. that's a mere blip in time compared to arab presence in the levant. if that's a reasonable policy for others, it should be equally reasonable and applicable to yourself.

First of all, that's Indigenous with a capital I. And please, the last thing any Indigenous person needs is, well, nevermind.

Carry on with this Manifest Destiny discussion.

[sandinista! 1,816]

note how there's nothing capitalized in there but "their", which was for emphasis. united states is typically capitalized as well, but i didn't, because, i don't capitalize anything when i'm writing on an internet board.

the point was nothing to do with actual indigenous peoples in the us though. it just happens that the us is where the person i was addressing lives, and how the idea of giving up your home to people who have a further back history to the area should apply equally to him if he wants to foist it onto someone else. somehow i don't think he's even remotely willing to do that. it's nothing to do with proposing policy making for indigenous people in the us, just showing what a hypocrite the guy i quoted is.

[mawilson 2,133]

the point was nothing to do with actual indigenous peoples in the us though. it just happens that the us is where the person i was addressing lives, and how the idea of giving up your home to people who have a further back history to the area should apply equally to him if he wants to foist it onto someone else. somehow i don't think he's even remotely willing to do that. it's nothing to do with proposing policy making for indigenous people in the us, just showing what a hypocrite the guy i quoted is.

Gary is not a hypocrite. Europeans took the land away from the indigenous peoples.

Israelis took it away from the Arabs. There's no inconsistency in his argument.

[simple_male 1]

That's a fair question - but I do have to ask why they make no mention of Christian repression is given. The fact is that while the Jews did not experience 'equality' in the muslim world during the middle-ages, there was much more repression going on in the Christian countries of Europe.

The Christian countries of Europe have evolved, while the Muslim world remained in the middle ages.

Yeah - that old chestnut again...

I don't disagree BTW - but that's not really the point I'm making. Some folks here don't seem to have a problem with using distortive interpretations of history to "prove" that muslims have been "savage" since the year dot, while completely ignoring the fact that as far as Jewish tolerance goes - the Christian nations during the middle ages were a lot more repressive.

Sorry - but it just isn't honest.

You don't even have to go that far. The Holocaust happened only 60 years ago, in a civilized,

democratic European nation with a great constitution.

Which pretty much illustrates why the Jews need their own homeland. There hasn't been a more oppressed people that ever lived. They need their own country to stop this constant oppression. Since that part of the mid-east is their ancestral homeland it only stands to reason that is where it should be. The Palestinians really don't have a long term claim to the land anyway. The just happened to be there when Israel was created.

how about you put your money where your mouth is, and give up your home and property here in the us so it can be given to the ancestors of the original inhabitants of that land. indigenous peoples in the us were horrifically oppressed and slaughtered with impunity for hundreds of years, and a good deal of them live in complete and abject poverty and despair today. it's THEIR homeland, and there's only been a united states since 1776. that's a mere blip in time compared to arab presence in the levant. if that's a reasonable policy for others, it should be equally reasonable and applicable to yourself.

I hope GaryC will answer from his conscience what "ta me go hiontach" asked him. I asked him a similar question before, "Would you agree, if someone wants to kick you out of your home, because they want to live there?"

Edited February 14, 2008 by simple_male

[mawilson 2,133]

I hope GaryC will answer what ta me go hiontach asked him from his conscience. I asked him a similar question, "Would you agree, if someone wants to kick you out of your home, because they want to live there?"

It's kind of a moot point now, since it's already happened.

[GaryC 7]

That's a fair question - but I do have to ask why they make no mention of Christian repression is given. The fact is that while the Jews did not experience 'equality' in the muslim world during the middle-ages, there was much more repression going on in the Christian countries of Europe.

The Christian countries of Europe have evolved, while the Muslim world remained in the middle ages.

Yeah - that old chestnut again...

I don't disagree BTW - but that's not really the point I'm making. Some folks here don't seem to have a problem with using distortive interpretations of history to "prove" that muslims have been "savage" since the year dot, while completely ignoring the fact that as far as Jewish tolerance goes - the Christian nations during the middle ages were a lot more repressive.

Sorry - but it just isn't honest.

You don't even have to go that far. The Holocaust happened only 60 years ago, in a civilized,

democratic European nation with a great constitution.

Which pretty much illustrates why the Jews need their own homeland. There hasn't been a more oppressed people that ever lived. They need their own country to stop this constant oppression. Since that part of the mid-east is their ancestral homeland it only stands to reason that is where it should be. The Palestinians really don't have a long term claim to the land anyway. The just happened to be there when Israel was created.

how about you put your money where your mouth is, and give up your home and property here in the us so it can be given to the ancestors of the original inhabitants of that land. indigenous peoples in the us were horrifically oppressed and slaughtered with impunity for hundreds of years, and a good deal of them live in complete and abject poverty and despair today. it's THEIR homeland, and there's only been a united states since 1776. that's a mere blip in time compared to arab presence in the levant. if that's a reasonable policy for others, it should be equally reasonable and applicable to yourself.

I hope GaryC will answer this from his conscience. I asked him a similar question, "Would you agree, if someone wants to kick you out of your home, because they want to live there?"

Apples and oranges. The Jews have a right to that land. The people that was there were squatters. If someone just took up residence on my land I would have a perfect right to kick them out.

[sandinista! 1,816]

the point was nothing to do with actual indigenous peoples in the us though. it just happens that the us is where the person i was addressing lives, and how the idea of giving up your home to people who have a further back history to the area should apply equally to him if he wants to foist it onto someone else. somehow i don't think he's even remotely willing to do that. it's nothing to do with proposing policy making for indigenous people in the us, just showing what a hypocrite the guy i quoted is.

Gary is not a hypocrite. Europeans took the land away from the indigenous peoples.

Israelis took it away from the Arabs. There's no inconsistency in his argument.

there is if he's not willing to give up his home and property, based on the principles he laid forth. that europeans in the us and predominantly european jews in palestine took land is not in dispute...it's the morality, rightness and fairness that's in dispute, and can such principles be right and just for one group of people if not another.

[Ban Hammer 13,443]

the point was nothing to do with actual indigenous peoples in the us though. it just happens that the us is where the person i was addressing lives, and how the idea of giving up your home to people who have a further back history to the area should apply equally to him if he wants to foist it onto someone else. somehow i don't think he's even remotely willing to do that. it's nothing to do with proposing policy making for indigenous people in the us, just showing what a hypocrite the guy i quoted is.

Gary is not a hypocrite. Europeans took the land away from the indigenous peoples.

Israelis took it away from the Arabs. There's no inconsistency in his argument.

there is if he's not willing to give up his home and property, based on the principles he laid forth. that europeans in the us and predominantly european jews in palestine took land is not in dispute...it's the morality, rightness and fairness that's in dispute, and can such principles be right and just for one group of people if not another.

once again, we can all blame the brits for this mess.

[simple_male 1]

That's a fair question - but I do have to ask why they make no mention of Christian repression is given. The fact is that while the Jews did not experience 'equality' in the muslim world during the middle-ages, there was much more repression going on in the Christian countries of Europe.

The Christian countries of Europe have evolved, while the Muslim world remained in the middle ages.

Yeah - that old chestnut again...

I don't disagree BTW - but that's not really the point I'm making. Some folks here don't seem to have a problem with using distortive interpretations of history to "prove" that muslims have been "savage" since the year dot, while completely ignoring the fact that as far as Jewish tolerance goes - the Christian nations during the middle ages were a lot more repressive.

Sorry - but it just isn't honest.

You don't even have to go that far. The Holocaust happened only 60 years ago, in a civilized,

democratic European nation with a great constitution.

Which pretty much illustrates why the Jews need their own homeland. There hasn't been a more oppressed people that ever lived. They need their own country to stop this constant oppression. Since that part of the mid-east is their ancestral homeland it only stands to reason that is where it should be. The Palestinians really don't have a long term claim to the land anyway. The just happened to be there when Israel was created.

how about you put your money where your mouth is, and give up your home and property here in the us so it can be given to the ancestors of the original inhabitants of that land. indigenous peoples in the us were horrifically oppressed and slaughtered with impunity for hundreds of years, and a good deal of them live in complete and abject poverty and despair today. it's THEIR homeland, and there's only been a united states since 1776. that's a mere blip in time compared to arab presence in the levant. if that's a reasonable policy for others, it should be equally reasonable and applicable to yourself.

I hope GaryC will answer this from his conscience. I asked him a similar question, "Would you agree, if someone wants to kick you out of your home, because they want to live there?"

Apples and oranges. The Jews have a right to that land. The people that was there were squatters. If someone just took up residence on my land I would have a perfect right to kick them out.

So you are objecting to being kicked out from your own home and land, why the Palestinians cant not object? Isn't it double standard? It is not apples and oranges, it is apples vs apples. It is about whether one would agree to be kicked out from his/her own home and land.