A Day without Immigrants

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

Business strive and go under every day in America because of the way they are run. Why should the market forces not apply to farmers? And why should I pay the cost of them keeping a business alive that can't survive the market?

To use an analogy, would we have sympathy for a business that was put out of business because of tax evasion, if they used the excuse that they would be unable to compete if they paid taxes?

Not a good analogy. There will always be another business to go work for. Farming is people's family and livelihood. It's not a matter of hopping to another farm-it's a matter of home, or homeless, food, or starving...

A farm is a family business as many other family businesses, as the name gives away, are just that. The farmer is not above the law. Not any more so than the family restaurant owner. Neither is entitled to break the law by evading taxes ot hiring folks illegally just to keep an otherwise non-sustainable business alive.

ET, I have no more involvement in the illegal community than you.

Right.

Ok, what are my current ties to the illegal community? Since you know all about me, you should be able to tell me...

Melissa, please don't pretend that you are debating this from some sort of a detached economic cost and effect point of view. This debate is very personal to you and that's fine. There's nothing wrong with that. You're entitled to your point of view. But whenever you generalize personal accounts, be prepared to be called on it.

You're saying it's personal to me but I say it isn't. You didn't answer the question anyway-you said I had ties to the illegal community and I asked you what they are.

So, your experience with your fiance being jailed and deported had no impact on you forming an opinion on the issue of illegals? And all the things that you posted in the various threads concerning illegals here on VJ do in no way reflect a very personal point of view formed by your love to a person that has been just that: an illegal alien. You may fool yourself, but you ain't fooling me.

Edited April 24, 2006 by ET-US2004

[CarolineM 0]

So, your experience with your fiance being jailed and deported had no impact on you formeing an opinion on the issue of illegals? And all the things that you posted in the various threads concerning illegals here on VJ do in no way reflect a very personal point of view formed by your love to a person that has been just that: an illegal alien. You may fool yourself, but you ain't fooling me.

Finally someone who can put it more eloquantly than I!!

[Traviesa 0]

Business strive and go under every day in America because of the way they are run. Why should the market forces not apply to farmers? And why should I pay the cost of them keeping a business alive that can't survive the market?

To use an analogy, would we have sympathy for a business that was put out of business because of tax evasion, if they used the excuse that they would be unable to compete if they paid taxes?

Not a good analogy. There will always be another business to go work for. Farming is people's family and livelihood. It's not a matter of hopping to another farm-it's a matter of home, or homeless, food, or starving...

A farm is a family business as many other family businesses, as the name gives away, are just that. The farmer is not above the law. Not any more so than the family restaurant owner. Neither is entitled to break the law by evading taxes ot hiring folks illegally just to keep an otherwise non-sustainable business alive.

ET, I have no more involvement in the illegal community than you.

Right.

Ok, what are my current ties to the illegal community? Since you know all about me, you should be able to tell me...

Melissa, please don't pretend that you are debating this from some sort of a detached economic cost and effect point of view. This debate is very personal to you and that's fine. There's nothing wrong with that. You're entitled to your point of view. But whenever you generalize personal accounts, be prepared to be called on it.

You're saying it's personal to me but I say it isn't. You didn't answer the question anyway-you said I had ties to the illegal community and I asked you what they are.

So, your experience with your fiance being jailed and deported had no impact on you formeing an opinion on the issue of illegals? And all the things that you posted in the various threads concerning illegals here on VJ do in no way reflect a very personal point of view formed by your love to a person that has been just that: an illegal alien. You may fool yourself, but you ain't fooling me.

ET, if you think I support illegals, you are very wrong. I did at one time, support them. I continue to empathize with them and understand their situation. BUT based on the education I have received and my own personal soul-searching, I came to the decision for myself that I don't support illegal immigration. I understand why it is wrong, at the most basic level. As I just told someone else over PM, I am even indirectly causing Javier's mindset to change on the subject as I tell him some of the things I learn-some downright shocking things, both to me and to him. Ignorance is no excuse, but I can say with 100% honesty that he and I have both been guilty of ignorance as to some of the critical issues involved in illegal immigration-simply, because the group he used to be involved with...didn't do those things (like get free medical care, drive around without insurance, etc). So yes I didn't know-now that I have learned it bothers me, as it has for a while. The simple fact that I never came out and stated my opinion doesn't change what it is. Like I said, I still empathize with them and can understand some situations. That is why my opinion continues to be different from most everyone else's.

[CarolineM 0]

it's not that you do or don't support it - it's that it IS A PERSONAL ISSUE FOR YOU.

The Javier thing for one - and even you admit you "know" so many people whom this effects. I don't know one single illegal immigrant...never have...

so for me this isn't pesonal - see how it is for you? I mean at least admit it is a bit personal - come on.

[Traviesa 0]

it's not that you do or don't support it - it's that it IS A PERSONAL ISSUE FOR YOU.

The Javier thing for one - and even you admit you "know" so many people whom this effects. I don't know one single illegal immigrant...never have...

so for me this isn't pesonal - see how it is for you? I mean at least admit it is a bit personal - come on.

It doesn't effect Javier. Yes, I have known illegals. It's probably been half a year since I've seen or spoken to any of them. So I don't know I guess....

[pax 0]

It's affecting Javier quite a bit at the moment, from what I can tell!

Melissa, you know I'm hoping for all the best for you and Javier, but for you to insist that this issue is nothing personal is just a teeny bit ludicrous. On some level, it's personal for every last one of us here, because any change in immigration law will most likely affect all of us.

[Traviesa 0]

It's affecting Javier quite a bit at the moment, from what I can tell!

Melissa, you know I'm hoping for all the best for you and Javier, but for you to insist that this issue is nothing personal is just a teeny bit ludicrous. On some level, it's personal for every last one of us here, because any change in immigration law will most likely affect all of us.

Wait, how is it going to affect us? It's not going to help or hurt us, at least that's the latest I hear from our attorney.

[pax 0]

I mean that having been an undocumented immigrant at some point is affecting him.

[Traviesa 0]

I mean that having been an undocumented immigrant at some point is affecting him.

Yeah, it does. Most notably because he can't get back in the country!!!

[*Robert* 2]

How many homeless people who can't find a job would suddenly find themselves with work, food, and a home?

How many of them would work though? Many of them choose to live that way. "Waldon's Pond" comes to mind!

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

BUT based on the education I have received and my own personal soul-searching, I came to the decision for myself that I don't support illegal immigration. I understand why it is wrong, at the most basic level.

Now that we've cleared that part up, let's go back to your earlier statement:

From what I understand, not many are (making it) fine without employing an illegal staff.

and yet:

http://pewhispanic.org/files/factsheets/16.pdf

How about that "understanding" now? Don't you think that America can suck up the loss of less than 5% of the work force seeing that no single sector of the economy would be losing more than 10-11% of it's workforce and seeing that it is a rather small minority of farms and businesses that claim to stay afloat by exploiting illegal labor? I say claim to because I am quite certain that a good portion of those businesses actually employ illegals for the sake of making larger profits.

[Traviesa 0]

...Don't you think that America can suck up the loss of less than 5% of the work force seeing that no single sector of the economy would be losing more than 10-11% of it's workforce and seeing that it is a rather small minority of farms and businesses that claim to stay afloat by exploiting illegal labor?

No, I don't. Sorry.

[mercuryroad 0]

...Don't you think that America can suck up the loss of less than 5% of the work force seeing that no single sector of the economy would be losing more than 10-11% of it's workforce and seeing that it is a rather small minority of farms and businesses that claim to stay afloat by exploiting illegal labor?

No, I don't. Sorry.

Me either.....it's just not that simple. There are other economic ramifications to consider.

I go back to my doctor example.......allowing foreign physicians to come here to work in "under served" areas because American doctors don't want to work and live in rural North Dakota.

The only difference between those foreign physicans and illegal immigrants is that they have a viable legal alternative to come here and do the work that American employers want them to do.

[pax 0]

I don't think the "North Dakota doctor" analogy is really apt here, Merc. And I say this as someone who is not anti-immigrant and even as someone who's not all that keen on rounding up illegals and shipping them home.

But there is a world of difference between health care systems who bring doctors here, legally, to fill a labor shortage and pay them the same salary and benefits that they would an American doctor, and companies getting rich off illegal labor because they can pay them far less than Americans.

[Traviesa 0]

...Don't you think that America can suck up the loss of less than 5% of the work force seeing that no single sector of the economy would be losing more than 10-11% of it's workforce and seeing that it is a rather small minority of farms and businesses that claim to stay afloat by exploiting illegal labor?

No, I don't. Sorry.

Me either.....it's just not that simple. There are other economic ramifications to consider.

I go back to my doctor example.......allowing foreign physicians to come here to work in "under served" areas because American doctors don't want to work and live in rural North Dakota.

The only difference between those foreign physicans and illegal immigrants is that they have a viable legal alternative to come here and do the work that American employers want them to do.

Well besides that I just don't see that there's thousands of people waiting around to pick up these jobs...I mean, as the numbers suggest, most people have jobs or will soon find one at this very moment.