A Day without Immigrants

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Seeing as the operative word here is 'illegal immigrant', I'm not sure what legal rights have to defend, seeing how in the eyes of the law they should not be here in the first place. Add to that the fact that successive US governments have really done nothing definitive about the problem I think has given rise to the perception among illegals that they have more rights than they actually do.

The fact that the article started with a paraphrased quote about "a day without immigrants" illustrates what's happening with the debate over this issue. Where once we had illegal vs. illegal immigration as a public debate - the focus has become much narrower - so that now people incorrectly take a judgemental attitude towards all immigration, rather than just the illegals.

I don't know about anyone else but the idea of someone referring to a "A day without immigration" suggests to me that immigration, whether legal or not has become almost the same thing in the public consciousness - and now has some pretty serious negative connotations attached to it. I'd be curious to know whether anyone has been on the receiving end of discrimination (either directly or indirectly) since they moved to the US merely by virtue of being an immigrant.

[Traviesa 0]

i would say a few Hear-say stories are less reliable than statisics. I disagree. Plus you need a national perspective. Just because what's going on in West Va. is one way - doesn't mean it's the same in California.

I'm not even referring to W.Va. There are restaurant workers there, which haven't even yet been mentioned on this thread. I'm talking about people who spent most of their lives in farm life in various states throughout the US.

They would, let me guess, be illegals that have worked on various farms that hire predominantely, well, illegals. The picture on those farms would obviously be quite a bit different than that on those farms that hire folks that they can legally employ. The people you refer to would not be welcome as workers on the latter farm and are therefore missing that part of the picture.

Actually, they're American citizens who grew up on farms where illegals were employed. One even went so far as to tell me they would have starved and lost their farm if they had had to pay any more for the workers.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

In the agricultural field, there are many jobs that Americans do not want to do, but *legal* Mexicans will gladly do the same job for the same money from what I've seen.

Thank You!

i would say a few Hear-say stories are less reliable than statisics. I disagree. Plus you need a national perspective. Just because what's going on in West Va. is one way - doesn't mean it's the same in California.

I'm not even referring to W.Va. There are restaurant workers there, which haven't even yet been mentioned on this thread. I'm talking about people who spent most of their lives in farm life in various states throughout the US.

They would, let me guess, be illegals that have worked on various farms that hire predominantely, well, illegals. The picture on those farms would obviously be quite a bit different than that on those farms that hire folks that they can legally employ. The people you refer to would not be welcome as workers on the latter farm and are therefore missing that part of the picture.

Actually, they're American citizens who grew up on farms where illegals were employed. One even went so far as to tell me they would have starved and lost their farm if they had had to pay any more for the workers.

Do they ever wonder how other farmers make it? Or are you suggesting that no farm in America can survive without breaking the law? If other farms can manage to legally hire staff and survive, I don't want to hear the others cry. Business strive and go under every day in America because of the way they are run. Why should the market forces not apply to farmers? And why should I pay the cost of them keeping a business alive that can't survive the market?

[Traviesa 0]

In the agricultural field, there are many jobs that Americans do not want to do, but *legal* Mexicans will gladly do the same job for the same money from what I've seen.

Thank You!

i would say a few Hear-say stories are less reliable than statisics. I disagree. Plus you need a national perspective. Just because what's going on in West Va. is one way - doesn't mean it's the same in California.

I'm not even referring to W.Va. There are restaurant workers there, which haven't even yet been mentioned on this thread. I'm talking about people who spent most of their lives in farm life in various states throughout the US.

They would, let me guess, be illegals that have worked on various farms that hire predominantely, well, illegals. The picture on those farms would obviously be quite a bit different than that on those farms that hire folks that they can legally employ. The people you refer to would not be welcome as workers on the latter farm and are therefore missing that part of the picture.

Actually, they're American citizens who grew up on farms where illegals were employed. One even went so far as to tell me they would have starved and lost their farm if they had had to pay any more for the workers.

Do they ever wonder how other farmers make it? Or are you suggesting that no farm in America can survive without breaking the law? If other farms can manage to legally hire staff and survive, I don't want to hear the others cry. Business strive and go under every day in America because of the way they are run. Why should the market forces not apply to farmers? And why should I pay the cost of them keeping a business alive that can't survive the market?

From what I understand, not many are (making it) fine without employing an illegal staff.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

In the agricultural field, there are many jobs that Americans do not want to do, but *legal* Mexicans will gladly do the same job for the same money from what I've seen.

Thank You!

i would say a few Hear-say stories are less reliable than statisics. I disagree. Plus you need a national perspective. Just because what's going on in West Va. is one way - doesn't mean it's the same in California.

I'm not even referring to W.Va. There are restaurant workers there, which haven't even yet been mentioned on this thread. I'm talking about people who spent most of their lives in farm life in various states throughout the US.

They would, let me guess, be illegals that have worked on various farms that hire predominantely, well, illegals. The picture on those farms would obviously be quite a bit different than that on those farms that hire folks that they can legally employ. The people you refer to would not be welcome as workers on the latter farm and are therefore missing that part of the picture.

Actually, they're American citizens who grew up on farms where illegals were employed. One even went so far as to tell me they would have starved and lost their farm if they had had to pay any more for the workers.

Do they ever wonder how other farmers make it? Or are you suggesting that no farm in America can survive without breaking the law? If other farms can manage to legally hire staff and survive, I don't want to hear the others cry. Business strive and go under every day in America because of the way they are run. Why should the market forces not apply to farmers? And why should I pay the cost of them keeping a business alive that can't survive the market?

From what I understand, not many are (making it) fine without employing an illegal staff.

From what you understand? What is your understanding based on? Other than your involvement in the illegal immigrant community. Have you "talked" to those farms that do make it legally? Or to those that legally work on those farms? There are plenty of them. And they are making it despite being exposed to unfair competition by those that choose to break the law.

[tweety 1]

I think it is indeed possible to fill the empty spots that illegal immigrants would leave vacant in case they would ever leave the US.

The question is just at what price and would the business still be profitable? I guess the bigger pictures will just be that in the end certain industries (which depend on low paying, physical labor) will be taken offshore.

The world is highly globalized now and the value of a product is determined on the world market.

So if the US can't produce half a pound of strawberries for a retail value of $2.50, it will import the strawberries from a country that will make it for that price or cheaper.

So honestly, I do believe that some parts of the US industry highly depend on low wage workers, and since it will be almost impossible to find US citizens to do some of the jobs, the US will have to find a way to satisfy this demand for cheap labor, or the business goes elsewhere.

That's some of the reasons why I believe a guest worker program could actually work.

However if they rather respond to the plea of the illegals and give them US citizenship, does anyone really believe that those "new" citizens will continue to pursue low paying jobs, when they know that now they have the whole labor market open to them? I doubt it.

Edited April 24, 2006 by tweety

[Traviesa 0]

ET, I have no more involvement in the illegal community than you.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

That's some of the reasons why I believe a guest worker program could actually work.

However if they rather respond to the plea of the illegals and give them US citizenship, does anyone really believe that those "new" citizens will continue to pursue low paying jobs, when they know that now they have the whole labor market open to them? I doubt it.

Bingo.

Guest workers? Absolutely.

Amnesty? Absolutely not!

ET, I have no more involvement in the illegal community than you.

Right.

[pax 0]

http://pewhispanic.org/files/factsheets/16.pdf

This should account for Reinhard's stats, I think.

You'll notice that in NO sector in which many illegal workers are employed do they compose more than 11% of the workforce in that sector.

[Traviesa 0]

ET, I have no more involvement in the illegal community than you.

Right.

Ok, what are my current ties to the illegal community? Since you know all about me, you should be able to tell me...

Edited April 24, 2006 by MissLiss

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

http://pewhispanic.org/files/factsheets/16.pdf

This should account for Reinhard's stats, I think.

You'll notice that in NO sector in which many illegal workers are employed do they compose more than 11% of the workforce in that sector.

Thanks for finding this. I knew that I read similar numbers not long ago and actually took a very careful approach by using the 75 and 80 percent figures where that really is more along the lines of 85 and 90%. I prefer to err on the side of caution in these debates...

[pax 0]

Business strive and go under every day in America because of the way they are run. Why should the market forces not apply to farmers? And why should I pay the cost of them keeping a business alive that can't survive the market?

To use an analogy, would we have sympathy for a business that was put out of business because of tax evasion, if they used the excuse that they would be unable to compete if they paid taxes?

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

ET, I have no more involvement in the illegal community than you.

Right.

Ok, what are my current ties to the illegal community? Since you know all about me, you should be able to tell me...

Melissa, please don't pretend that you are debating this from some sort of a detached economic cost and effect point of view. This debate is very personal to you and that's fine. There's nothing wrong with that. You're entitled to your point of view. But whenever you generalize personal accounts, be prepared to be called on it.

[Traviesa 0]

Business strive and go under every day in America because of the way they are run. Why should the market forces not apply to farmers? And why should I pay the cost of them keeping a business alive that can't survive the market?

To use an analogy, would we have sympathy for a business that was put out of business because of tax evasion, if they used the excuse that they would be unable to compete if they paid taxes?

Not a good analogy. There will always be another business to go work for. Farming is people's family and livelihood. It's not a matter of hopping to another farm-it's a matter of home, or homeless, food, or starving...

ET, I have no more involvement in the illegal community than you.

Right.

Ok, what are my current ties to the illegal community? Since you know all about me, you should be able to tell me...

Melissa, please don't pretend that you are debating this from some sort of a detached economic cost and effect point of view. This debate is very personal to you and that's fine. There's nothing wrong with that. You're entitled to your point of view. But whenever you generalize personal accounts, be prepared to be called on it.

You're saying it's personal to me but I say it isn't. You didn't answer the question anyway-you said I had ties to the illegal community and I asked you what they are.

[pax 0]

Not a good analogy. There will always be another business to go work for. Farming is people's family and livelihood. It's not a matter of hopping to another farm-it's a matter of home, or homeless, food, or starving...

Are we romanticizing farming a bit? Farming is a wonderful, worthy pursuit that is crucial to the American economy. But how is it all that different from running a store, or a health clinic, or a bank, or...?

Again, why is breaking the law by hiring illegals all right, if one "must" do it to survive, but evading taxes is not?