A Day without Immigrants

[Fischkoepfin 1]

No one has told me who picked the strawberries before undocumented immigrants did!

Seriously, I'm not being snarky. Did the industrialization of farming happen because an influx of illegal immigrants made it possible? Or were there legal workers in the strawberry fields at some point?

Sorry to chime in a day later (and without having read all the posts), but I would like to address this.

The strawberries were picked by legal immigrants, mostly from Japan, and in the border regions by Mexicans who came over to work as agricultural migrant workers in the time when that was not considered illegal. After WWII, Asian immigrant families continued to work in agriculture and Mexican laborers were coming over on the Bracero-program, which is a fore-runner of the guest-worker program. The Bracero-program was ended in the 1960s and all Mexicans working under that program were deported. Meanwhile, the Asian immigrant families which had long worked in agriculture were granted full immigrant rights in the 1950s and thus moved into other employment fields. The agriculture industry, which had long depended on cheap labor, continued to rely on extremely cheap labor, now however by illegals immigrants since the legal pool was unavailable.

Nor are they working only sub minimum wage jobs. We're way past that. Way past.

I've often heard that many illegal immigrants are employed as home health aides, and my mother used to do that work before she got her nursing degree. So, yes, illegal immigrants aren't just picking strawberries, so to speak.

The problem is not that illegals only work in sub-minimum wage jobs, but that they are depressing wages in other occupations as well. They work for less because employers can pressure them into accepting less money. Add to that that domestic labor (and this includes home-care to a certain degree), working conditions have always been among the worse because it is harder to achieve decent labor conditions or enforce labor protection or immigration laws. Domestic labor has always been among the worst-paid and while it has given work to generations of legal immigrants and disadvantaged Americans (black women come to mind), most ethnic groups have been quick to leave domestic service.

Edited April 25, 2006 by Fischkoepfin

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

No one has told me who picked the strawberries before undocumented immigrants did!

Seriously, I'm not being snarky. Did the industrialization of farming happen because an influx of illegal immigrants made it possible? Or were there legal workers in the strawberry fields at some point?

Sorry to chime in a day later (and without having read all the posts), but I would like to address this.

The strawberries were picked by legal immigrants, mostly from Japan, and in the border regions by Mexicans who came over to work as agricultural migrant workers in the time when that was not considered illegal. After WWII, Asian immigrant families continued to work in agriculture and Mexican laborers were coming over on the Bracero-program, which is a fore-runner of the guest-worker program. The Bracero-program was ended in the 1960s and all Mexicans working under that program were deported. Meanwhile, the Asian immigrant families which had long worked in agriculture were granted full immigrant rights in the 1950s and thus moved into other employment fields. The agriculture industry, which had long depended on cheap labor, continued to rely on extremely cheap labor, now however by illegals immigrants since the legal pool was unavailable.

So, in other words, in order to have the strawberries picked on an ongoing basis, we should not consider providing immigrant status to the crowd that allegedly picks them illegally today as we're otherwise bound to run out of strawberry pickers again necessitating the influx of a whole new illegal crowd?

[Fischkoepfin 1]

Any way you slice it, we need reform and a change of thinking.

Yes, we do. We need more labor immigration. More visas and more effective ways of securing those. And we need to put a stop to the mentality that it's okay to break the laws if we don't like them. We need to stop detaining people that came here illegally and release them with a date to appear in court and put them on a bus or plane back home instead. Instantly. We need to get tough on employers that hire illegals. Stiff fines for the business and even jail time for those engaged in hiring folks that are not legally entitled to take up employment. We need a change of thinking for sure.

Plus, we need some labor reform, starting with increases of the minimum wage. Labor law enforcement would also help because it would automatically involve a crackdown on illegal immigrants and their employers.

No one has told me who picked the strawberries before undocumented immigrants did!

Seriously, I'm not being snarky. Did the industrialization of farming happen because an influx of illegal immigrants made it possible? Or were there legal workers in the strawberry fields at some point?

Sorry to chime in a day later (and without having read all the posts), but I would like to address this.

The strawberries were picked by legal immigrants, mostly from Japan, and in the border regions by Mexicans who came over to work as agricultural migrant workers in the time when that was not considered illegal. After WWII, Asian immigrant families continued to work in agriculture and Mexican laborers were coming over on the Bracero-program, which is a fore-runner of the guest-worker program. The Bracero-program was ended in the 1960s and all Mexicans working under that program were deported. Meanwhile, the Asian immigrant families which had long worked in agriculture were granted full immigrant rights in the 1950s and thus moved into other employment fields. The agriculture industry, which had long depended on cheap labor, continued to rely on extremely cheap labor, now however by illegals immigrants since the legal pool was unavailable.

So, in other words, in order to have the strawberries picked on an ongoing basis, we should not consider providing immigrant status to the crowd that allegedly picks them illegally today as we're otherwise bound to run out of strawberry pickers again necessitating the influx of a whole new illegal crowd?

Of course we should! I never said we shouldn't. I just said that the high percentage of illegals in agriculture is the result of a misconceived immigration policy. Asian immigrants had fueled the picking industry for almost a century because they couldn't really move up; changing the laws gave them the chance to get out, but it didn't provide for new groups to come in and take their place. I'm totally for providing no-skill work visas to people who want to pick strawberries (even though I'm more and more against any guest-worker program).

But I am not going to defend the hiring and retention of illegal immigrants to shield "family" businesses from going under. Boo freaking hoo. IMO.

Well I guess we should just be thankful that's not your family. Boo freaking hoo, wow that's some great compassion for the plight of others there.

Family farms are an illusion. When have you last visited the Midwest? They have farms here that are called "family-farms" but are more like little factories employing tons of people. The farmer is more a businessman than a tiller of the soil...

The idea of family farms is one of the reasons massive agricultural businesses get subsidies. The few remaining farms still run by a farmer and his wife with only family labor don't qualify for these subsidies and they certainly don't hire illegals either...

[Jenn! 918]

actually I thought it went:

fuzzy wuzzy wuz a bear, fuzzy wuzzy had no hair, fuzzy wuzzy wasn't fuzzy wuzzy??? M.

YEA!!!! That's it!!! Thanks M!!! :joy:

By george, I think she's got it!!!

Actually, it's fuzzy wuzzy wuz a bear, fuzzy wuzzy had no hair, fuzzy wuzzy wasn't fuzzy, was he???

Notice how I pay attention to the most important parts of this thread...

[Jaylen Brit 0]

I'm still none the wiser

[Sinergy 3]

If a company has to resort to hiring illegals for below minimum wage, their company is doomed to failure anyway.

anyone agree? probly not....

I'll agree to that... because that means they aren't meeting their profit margin, and if they get caught, they're going down, so that means they don't have good corporate ethics.

fuzzy wuzzy wuz a bear, fuzzy wuzzy had no hair, wuz fuzzy wuzzy very fuzzy?

Hey... isn't it supposed to be:

fuzzy wuzzy wuz a bear, fuzzy wuzzy had no hair, wuz fuzzy wuzzy ever fuzzy???

nope i got it right If i got it wrong, MY BAD, i dont care, i was just trying to cut down some of the evil tension that was growing on this thread

Edited April 25, 2006 by Ionescu

[AlmostMex 0]

Family farms are an illusion.

1. I'm glad to know my family and my relatives and friends' family farms are just an illusion. I'll have to tell that to them right now that they're working 14-16 hours days trying to get the crop in, feed and breed the pigs, etc. I'm sure they'd love to hear it.

When have you last visited the Midwest?

2. I grew up there and live there now. I also participate in the various farm organizations that are full of family farmers.

They have farms here that are called "family-farms" but are more like little factories employing tons of people. The farmer is more a businessman than a tiller of the soil...

3. The farmer has always been a businessman. Running a farm IS a business, and I'd like to see anyone who disagrees try to manage the cash flow, labor issues, environmental issues, etc that farmers deal with nowadays

The idea of family farms is one of the reasons massive agricultural businesses get subsidies. The few remaining farms still run by a farmer and his wife with only family labor don't qualify for these subsidies and they certainly don't hire illegals either...

Our family farm qualifies for the subsidies. So does my brothers, my cousins, my uncles, our friends, etc., etc. AND they don't hire illegals. Our family farm as well as my relatives is a family farm which incorporated 10 years ago to limit their liability for nuisance lawsuits as well as to take advantage of tax breaks offered through incorporation. Corporations and family farms do not have to be and aren't mutually exclusive terms anymore.

This brings up another point though I've wanted to bring up- I've seen posts about making the employer responsible for hiring illegals which in theory I highly agree with. Both illegals AND employers need to be punished for breaking the law if it's going to work. But how do you balance punishing people who knowingly hire illegal aliens without opening up a lot of honest employers to fines, etc., for hiring people they thought were legal, who they got copies of the greencards for, completed the I-9 and all the required paperwork for, and for whom they have no way of knowing they aren't legal until the INS shows up on the doorstep with huge fines. I don't know the answer - I'm curious to see what you think.

Edited April 25, 2006 by InLoveInMexico

[kaydee457 13]

here we go again....

Yeah, with people not being willing to accept or even consider another point of view..funny thing is, I don't really care-the point of view I'm expressing comes from many people, none of which are me. Just stuff I've been told along the way...

so reinhard has been telling stuff he's read along the way. whats the difference? and are you willing to accept or consider his point of view? I do appreciate your point of view or even what others have told you, but I also appreciate his point of view, which I seem to share on many subjects.

why must you guys do this every time someone mentions illegal immigrants?

is anybody else tired of hearing about this? oh well, maybe i shouldn't even read this thread.

sorry, i dont want to sound like i'm shooting down anyone's views here.

Fuzz- You need to stop being full of yourself and quit wrecking these threads. If you can't be tolerant of other peoples opinons then please opt out of these discussions......

Edited April 25, 2006 by kaydee457

[CarolineM 0]

[Sister Fracas 5]

[Fuzzness 2]

huh? what did kaydee say? i have him on ignore

[Sister Fracas 5]

nuffin worthwhile....

[CarolineM 0]

haha that's too bad...really.

[Fuzzness 2]

nuffin worthwhile....

I didn't think so

[jen&darcy 0]

huh? what did kaydee say? i have him on ignore

LMAO!