A Day without Immigrants

[almaty 19]

*sits on arijit's lap and watches*

move over sister monique...i sitting this one out

[Fuzzness 2]

If a company has to resort to hiring illegals for below minimum wage, their company is doomed to failure anyway.

anyone agree? probly not....

[*Robert* 2]

If a company has to resort to hiring illegals for below minimum wage, their company is doomed to failure anyway.

anyone agree? probly not....

I'll agree to that... because that means they aren't meeting their profit margin, and if they get caught, they're going down, so that means they don't have good corporate ethics.

fuzzy wuzzy wuz a bear, fuzzy wuzzy had no hair, wuz fuzzy wuzzy very fuzzy?

Hey... isn't it supposed to be:

fuzzy wuzzy wuz a bear, fuzzy wuzzy had no hair, wuz fuzzy wuzzy ever fuzzy???

[Fuzzness 2]

If a company has to resort to hiring illegals for below minimum wage, their company is doomed to failure anyway.

anyone agree? probly not....

I'll agree to that... because that means they aren't meeting their profit margin, and if they get caught, they're going down, so that means they don't have good corporate ethics.

zactly!

[MichelleandCraig 1]

actually I thought it went:

fuzzy wuzzy wuz a bear, fuzzy wuzzy had no hair, fuzzy wuzzy wasn't fuzzy wuzzy??? M.

[*Robert* 2]

actually I thought it went:

fuzzy wuzzy wuz a bear, fuzzy wuzzy had no hair, fuzzy wuzzy wasn't fuzzy wuzzy??? M.

YEA!!!! That's it!!! Thanks M!!! :joy:

By george, I think she's got it!!!

[AlmostMex 0]

In the agricultural field, there are many jobs that Americans do not want to do, but *legal* Mexicans will gladly do the same job for the same money from what I've seen.

Thank You!

i would say a few Hear-say stories are less reliable than statisics. I disagree. Plus you need a national perspective. Just because what's going on in West Va. is one way - doesn't mean it's the same in California.

I'm not even referring to W.Va. There are restaurant workers there, which haven't even yet been mentioned on this thread. I'm talking about people who spent most of their lives in farm life in various states throughout the US.

They would, let me guess, be illegals that have worked on various farms that hire predominantely, well, illegals. The picture on those farms would obviously be quite a bit different than that on those farms that hire folks that they can legally employ. The people you refer to would not be welcome as workers on the latter farm and are therefore missing that part of the picture.

Actually, they're American citizens who grew up on farms where illegals were employed. One even went so far as to tell me they would have starved and lost their farm if they had had to pay any more for the workers.

Do they ever wonder how other farmers make it? Or are you suggesting that no farm in America can survive without breaking the law? If other farms can manage to legally hire staff and survive, I don't want to hear the others cry. Business strive and go under every day in America because of the way they are run. Why should the market forces not apply to farmers? And why should I pay the cost of them keeping a business alive that can't survive the market?

From what I understand, not many are (making it) fine without employing an illegal staff.

From what you understand? What is your understanding based on? Other than your involvement in the illegal immigrant community. Have you "talked" to those farms that do make it legally? Or to those that legally work on those farms? There are plenty of them. And they are making it despite being exposed to unfair competition by those that choose to break the law.

Your question appears to be to Melissa, but I'd like to answer it as well. I HAVE talked to those farms that do make it legally. All of my relatives that own farms do it legally, this includes my parents, my brother and sister-in-law, my cousins, my uncles, etc. All are family farms in the strict sense of the word (i.e. they are family owned and operated), while at the same time many of them are corporations at the same time. My point in my first post however was that those farms that do it legally are struggling. This is at least true throughout the pork industry, if not throughout agricultural industry wide, and not just for my family nor the Midwest area of the US they live in. Farmers are paying higher and higher wages for jobs Americans are not willing to do, and still are unable to get Americans to show up to do those jobs. Are they surviving? For now, yes, but they are breaking even. I can tell you for a fact that right now hog prices right now are at a break-even point, and this means in order to make a profit, farmers are forced to grow if they are able to get loans to do so, or go out of business. Then people complain that there are too many factory farms, and not enough family farms Lack of reliable labor is the issue, and that's the US *needs* to provide more ways to bring workers from Mexico and other countries where people are willing to do the work for fair wages that allow the family farms to stay alive, yet allow people who truly WANT to work to do just that and support their families. As for employing those on unemployment, all of the people my family's farms have employed only work for us until they are able to find an easier job even when it pays less - and usually this only takes a few weeks or months. And then the farmer is back in the position of replacing and retraining the person to fill that position. It's a vicious cycle that they've been able to stop by employing legal Mexican workers, but truthfully the demand for Mexicans to come to the States legally to work in ag jobs is so much higher than the number of visas, it's like trying to find a needle in a haystack, and it's getting harder every day.

[rebeccajo 14]

It's a vicious cycle that they've been able to stop by employing legal Mexican workers, but truthfully the demand for Mexicans to come to the States legally to work in ag jobs is so much higher than the number of visas, it's like trying to find a needle in a haystack, and it's getting harder every day.

Long before this 'illegal immigrantion' rant became a political hot-button, I have believed that we need to allow those who want to enter the US that priveledge. Their desire to come here should not have to fit some pigeon-hole visa category. Let them come legally and with background checks. For whatever reason. And let them sink or swim like the rest of us born here.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

So......the average homeowners that sub contract work out to some people hanging around the home depot should be having them fill out I-9's?

If you contract work to an individual, yes. It's your responsibility to make sure that the person doing the job is doing it legally. If you hire a business, it's the business' responsibility. And yes, I had my roof done by a roofing company. No Spanish was spoken when they started getting busy at 5:00am. An American contractor with American staff at competitive prices - in fact, it was the best offer I had coming in.

I did not say that they were morally equivalent. Of course they're not.

I said that I don't buy the excuse that businesses need to hire illegal labor to survive. And that if we say it's okay for businesses to break the laws against hiring undocumented aliens, then it should also be okay for them to break other laws. Which it's not.

You just did it again.......

No, she didn't. Maybe you read that into her statement again.

Her point is fairly simple: If a business needs to break the law to survive, then maybe it ought not be around to begin with. If the vast majority of the competition survives within the law, the business "breaking it to survive" should be able to do the same. If they can't, they're not competitive and ought to either get with the program or leave the playing field to those business that can produce efficiently while obeying the laws.

Nowhere does that suggest that illegal labor equals child pornography.

Edited April 24, 2006 by ET-US2004

[*Robert* 2]

So......the average homeowners that sub contract work out to some people hanging around the home depot should be having them fill out I-9's?

If you contract work to an individual, yes. It's your responsibility to make sure that the person doing the job is doing it legally. If you hire a business, it's the business' responsibility. And yes, I had my roof done by a roofing company. No Spanish was spoken when they started getting busy at 5:00am. An American contractor with American staff at competitive prices - in fact, it was the best offer I had coming in.

Think about all the people running for political office that had their campaigns derailed when it was found out they hired illegal immigrants as housekeepers and nannies!!! I think that right there shows it is an individuals responsibility to make sure!

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

Your question appears to be to Melissa, but I'd like to answer it as well. I HAVE talked to those farms that do make it legally. All of my relatives that own farms do it legally, this includes my parents, my brother and sister-in-law, my cousins, my uncles, etc. All are family farms in the strict sense of the word (i.e. they are family owned and operated), while at the same time many of them are corporations at the same time. My point in my first post however was that those farms that do it legally are struggling. This is at least true throughout the pork industry, if not throughout agricultural industry wide, and not just for my family nor the Midwest area of the US they live in. Farmers are paying higher and higher wages for jobs Americans are not willing to do, and still are unable to get Americans to show up to do those jobs. Are they surviving? For now, yes, but they are breaking even. I can tell you for a fact that right now hog prices right now are at a break-even point, and this means in order to make a profit, farmers are forced to grow if they are able to get loans to do so, or go out of business. Then people complain that there are too many factory farms, and not enough family farms Lack of reliable labor is the issue, and that's the US *needs* to provide more ways to bring workers from Mexico and other countries where people are willing to do the work for fair wages that allow the family farms to stay alive, yet allow people who truly WANT to work to do just that and support their families. As for employing those on unemployment, all of the people my family's farms have employed only work for us until they are able to find an easier job even when it pays less - and usually this only takes a few weeks or months. And then the farmer is back in the position of replacing and retraining the person to fill that position. It's a vicious cycle that they've been able to stop by employing legal Mexican workers, but truthfully the demand for Mexicans to come to the States legally to work in ag jobs is so much higher than the number of visas, it's like trying to find a needle in a haystack, and it's getting harder every day.

I can see all of that. I can understand that farming is probably a tough business to be in. And more corporate type agricultural production ain't making it any easier for the family farm to do well. But neither does unfair competition from other family farm businesses that artificially keep production costs low by exploiting illegal immigrants against the law.

Many a business sector went throuh phases of "industrialization". The mom and pop grocery store at the corner is all but gone, too. Try and find the showmaker that was a part of any community back when. They fell victim to the large supermarket chains and mass production of cheap shoes, respectively. The market will cause such changes from time to time. Nothing is ever static.

Some farmers have found and continue to find niches to thrive in: organic food production, for example. More and more people (including Nani and myself) are sick and tired of this watered down tastless meat, the hormon and antibiotic laden eggs that taste like ####### and make you feel even worse. The genetically manipulated produce where you can't tell whether you're eating an apple or a pear. It's ridiculous. There's a huge market for healthy and naturally grown agricultural products. Yes, they're more expensive and not everyone can afford to buy them. But a huge number of Americans can and will buy those products. I know I do.

I saw a number of farms in Europe that converted their farms into "vacation in the country" type facilities. They would host a couple of families and offer educational vacations for families with children. There would be organic agricultural production and the offering to let "city folk" get a taste of live out in the country. Those vacations, although quite expensive, are a huge hit in Europe. People pay a pretty penny for that experience and it helps the farmers in two ways: It's additional income and it is the best marketing for organically produced agricultural products they could ever ask for.

Point being, rather than going outside the law, maybe the solution for the family farm is to find their own niche to thrive in. Mass production most likely ain't it. Can't compete with the corporate types on mass production. That's their playing field. Find your own where they can't compete with you. Within the boundries of the law. It's not easy to keep any business running strong for many generations. It never is.

Edited April 24, 2006 by ET-US2004

[Ban Hammer 13,475]

now for my two cents on this.

i don't recall which one it is, but there is a hospital in los angeles that is/was having severe financially problems due to illegal immigrants using it. something to the tune of like over 10% of the outstanding debt was owed by such, but fat chance finding them and having them pay. (i'm sure someone will check this out and provide us with the details soon).

for those of you that don't know it, by law hospitals are required to care for anyone who shows up, regardless of their status and ability to pay. there was a hospital in southern arizona that closed its delivery center for that very reason too. (same checks i'm sure as the hospital in LA).

i am strongly for immigration, as is everyone here, obviously. we are all on this site for the same reason - to learn and discuss how to get our significant others here legally. i cannot in any way support illegal immigration, as i was raised to follow the law (spending 20 years in the military probably had a significant impact on this too).

if illegal workers go on strike, so be it. perhaps that will employ some usc's that are out of a job right now, along with putting in more tax and social security dollars (you might recall the earlier postings about some illegals being paid in cash). such might even give kids a shot at earning some money, eh? and if some businesses fold due to having illegals go on strike, then that is their just desserts for hiring illegals to begin with.

more thoughts for those who seem to be pro-illegal immigration: although i'm certain that illegals don't suck up welfare dollars, what about health care? social security number scams? and that huge sucking sound you hear south of the border (to sound like ross perot) is american dollars being sent to mexico to prop up a hypocritical government that turns a blind eye to beatings, robbery, killing, and raping of south american illegals found in the mexico, along with encouraging its citizens to make a dangerous trek thru some difficult terrain just so they can send money back home and the corrupt politicians there can maintain their status quo.

so in short, if you really care about the welfare/lives of these illegals trying to better their lives, support a guest worker program where there will be a system to look out for them, rather than depending on an employer that is breaking the law to do so. such will cut down on the deaths of those trying to cross and the smugglers who profit off their coming here.

now let the fireworks start. *puts on bulletproof vest*

[iceyspots 0]

So......the average homeowners that sub contract work out to some people hanging around the home depot should be having them fill out I-9's?

If you contract work to an individual, yes. It's your responsibility to make sure that the person doing the job is doing it legally. If you hire a business, it's the business' responsibility. And yes, I had my roof done by a roofing company. No Spanish was spoken when they started getting busy at 5:00am. An American contractor with American staff at competitive prices - in fact, it was the best offer I had coming in.

Think about all the people running for political office that had their campaigns derailed when it was found out they hired illegal immigrants as housekeepers and nannies!!! I think that right there shows it is an individuals responsibility to make sure!

good point

[*Robert* 2]

So......the average homeowners that sub contract work out to some people hanging around the home depot should be having them fill out I-9's?

If you contract work to an individual, yes. It's your responsibility to make sure that the person doing the job is doing it legally. If you hire a business, it's the business' responsibility. And yes, I had my roof done by a roofing company. No Spanish was spoken when they started getting busy at 5:00am. An American contractor with American staff at competitive prices - in fact, it was the best offer I had coming in.

Think about all the people running for political office that had their campaigns derailed when it was found out they hired illegal immigrants as housekeepers and nannies!!! I think that right there shows it is an individuals responsibility to make sure!

good point

can we put this one to bed now?!!! PLS!!!

[Jaylen Brit 0]

*wakes it up outta the bed*

Well, I've read thru the entire 12 pages - and some nice arguments btw - interesting but I'm a bit confused (see my custom title ).

If illegal workers go on strike won't that make them really easy to identify? Do they plan to demonstrate? Or just not show up for work?

And as they are illegal, won't their money-grabbing employers just sack them? I mean, to whom do they complain if they are sacked because they went on strike?

I'm not pro-illegal btw, I think it's not a good start to go to another country and break laws all over the place, doesn't really endear you to anyone, (and as a side point when I was in Ca. years ago I knew a lot of illegal workers and none of them had skin any darker than mine - all from 'english speaking countries'), but just looking for clarification there.