A Day without Immigrants

[mercuryroad 0]

My family, if we had a business, wouldn't resort to cheating to stay afloat. We were raised better.

How would that be okay? Would it be okay if we decided to hire some young children? If we had a side business in cocaine and child prostitution to tide us over? If we decided not to pay taxes?

But that is coming from your perspective on this issue after gaining much information. I really doubt you would check everyone's passport and ask for a green card in the interview process.

You can't compare cocaine and child prostitution to hiring somebody to wash dishes. In the case of hiring an illegal immigrant, you might not have any idea you just did it!

I don't know. I've hired for years. The I-9 is not rocket science and is mandatory paperwork for any employee anyone in the US hires. So, yes, asking for porper documentation is something one routinely does in the hiring process. Quit pretending that hiring illegals is a Britney Spears "Oops, I did it again" blonde kind of thing. It's not.

OMG.....illegal immigrants are not working for freakin GM and Microsoft. How many small business owners are HR experts?

I'm not saying they are innocent or shouldn't know the law. I'm saying it is not along the lines of child prostitution.

[Traviesa 0]

And what I'm saying is your comparison of hiring illegals to child prostitution is ridiculous. Most of the people I'm referring to (and I know there are places where illegals are treated terribly) treat their workers very well, make them a part of the family, that kind of thing. There's no exploitation here-the illegals get what they need-money, and the farmer gets what he needs-the work done at a cheap rate. Both are then able to provide for their families. So what do we do-do we allow the farmer to provide for his family or do we further exhaust the welfare system? Which evil is lesser to you?

Sure, I agree it's not exactly the same thing. But your argument is that it's okay if family businesses break the law, if they "have to" to "stay afloat." And by that argument, having a side business in drugs, prostitution, or organized crime would also be okay, if that got the bills paid.

It's lovely that some illegal workers are treated well. But they're not being treated well if they cannot go to OSHA or EEOC if they want to report unsafe or unfair conditions at their jobs. They are not being treated well if they're let go and can't apply for unemployment. That is NOT being treated well. It's not a good deal for the illegals.

Such things are the risk they take in coming over. It's like signing up for a dangerous job and wondering why you got hurt??

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

And what I'm saying is your comparison of hiring illegals to child prostitution is ridiculous. Most of the people I'm referring to (and I know there are places where illegals are treated terribly) treat their workers very well, make them a part of the family, that kind of thing. There's no exploitation here-the illegals get what they need-money, and the farmer gets what he needs-the work done at a cheap rate. Both are then able to provide for their families. So what do we do-do we allow the farmer to provide for his family or do we further exhaust the welfare system? Which evil is lesser to you?

Sure, next thing you know is we exempt struggling companies from minimum wage laws. We know how any accountant can make a company as rich or poor as need be. I mean, why make them pay minimum wage and risk their demise? Let's just lower the working age for kids once again so they can flip burgers at McD's for a buck and half a day at, say, 12 years of age? That should help the fast food insustry out in continuing to offer the cherished Dollar Menu. Hell, maybe we can roll that back and make it the half-dollar menu if only we get some of those kids to work at the meat plants for a buck fitty a day pressing the patties just a little thinner. How about that?

[Traviesa 0]

And what I'm saying is your comparison of hiring illegals to child prostitution is ridiculous. Most of the people I'm referring to (and I know there are places where illegals are treated terribly) treat their workers very well, make them a part of the family, that kind of thing. There's no exploitation here-the illegals get what they need-money, and the farmer gets what he needs-the work done at a cheap rate. Both are then able to provide for their families. So what do we do-do we allow the farmer to provide for his family or do we further exhaust the welfare system? Which evil is lesser to you?

Sure, next thing you know is we exempt struggling companies from minimum wage laws. We know how any accountant can make a company as rich or poor as need be. I mean, why make them pay minimum wage and risk their demise? Let's just lower the working age for kids once again so they can flip burgers at McD's for a buck and half a day at, say, 12 years of age? That should help the fast food insustry out in continuing to offer the cherished Dollar Menu. Hell, maybe we can roll that back and make it the half-dollar menu if only we get some of those kids to work at the meat plants for a buck fitty a day pressing the patties just a little thinner. How about that?

Children should be in school, not working.

[Sinergy 3]

My last employer, who is my best friend, owns her own business here in town. It is small, and she makes sure EVERYONE she hires is documented and all documents are REAL. She has even hired lawyers to help her with this. It takes time, and she has had to turn away undocumented workers who apply and when asked for papers and whatnot and they can not supply them. So what, she puts out the "help wanted" sign, and gets documented workers to work there. That was just a statement i decided to add. It does take time to check a status of someone, and she does DEEP background checks on everyone who applies there, i know, i helped her many times. especially if they have false ID's or SScards, but it should be done, regardless. The law of not hiring illegals was put there for a reason, not just because someone got bored oneday and decided to make one.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

OMG.....illegal immigrants are not working for freakin GM and Microsoft. How many small business owners are HR experts?

I'm not saying they are innocent or shouldn't know the law. I'm saying it is not along the lines of child prostitution.

I ain't no HR expert and I know the I-9. It's a simple form, very easy to understand. If you can own and run a business, you can understand it. If you want to. And since when does ignorance exempt one from the law?

All I'm saying is that employing illegals ain't no accident.

[mercuryroad 0]

Sure, next thing you know is we exempt struggling companies from minimum wage laws.

We wouldn't do that.....we'd just bail them out in Congress hahahaha.

Farm subsidies, airline bailouts, import tariffs.......yeah.

[pax 0]

Yeah, but you made this a moral issue based upon how you said you were raised and equated that to child prositution.

All I'm saying is that as a small employer, you may have no idea that you broke the law by your latest hiring decision....in today's world. That should be part of the reform as well.

Those employers could be perfectly moral people that don't know they just did something wrong. Give them a system for checks and balances as well.

I did not equate it to child prostitution. What I said was that, by MissLiss's logic, it's okay for employers to break the law if they have to do it to survive--and so, by that same logic, we should also allow for family businesses to break the law in other ways.

I'm not in favor of shaking down a small employer for everything he has over one honest mistake. I am in favor of shaking down an employer of ANY size over a pattern of willful, repeated hiring of illegal immigrants.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

And what I'm saying is your comparison of hiring illegals to child prostitution is ridiculous. Most of the people I'm referring to (and I know there are places where illegals are treated terribly) treat their workers very well, make them a part of the family, that kind of thing. There's no exploitation here-the illegals get what they need-money, and the farmer gets what he needs-the work done at a cheap rate. Both are then able to provide for their families. So what do we do-do we allow the farmer to provide for his family or do we further exhaust the welfare system? Which evil is lesser to you?

Sure, next thing you know is we exempt struggling companies from minimum wage laws. We know how any accountant can make a company as rich or poor as need be. I mean, why make them pay minimum wage and risk their demise? Let's just lower the working age for kids once again so they can flip burgers at McD's for a buck and half a day at, say, 12 years of age? That should help the fast food insustry out in continuing to offer the cherished Dollar Menu. Hell, maybe we can roll that back and make it the half-dollar menu if only we get some of those kids to work at the meat plants for a buck fitty a day pressing the patties just a little thinner. How about that?

Children should be in school, not working.

They're in school and working at 16. Besides, where's your compassion for the poor family business that really needs them to work for slave wages to survive?

[mercuryroad 0]

OMG.....illegal immigrants are not working for freakin GM and Microsoft. How many small business owners are HR experts?

I'm not saying they are innocent or shouldn't know the law. I'm saying it is not along the lines of child prostitution.

I ain't no HR expert and I know the I-9. It's a simple form, very easy to understand. If you can own and run a business, you can understand it. If you want to. And since when does ignorance exempt one from the law?

All I'm saying is that employing illegals ain't no accident.

I'm not saying anyone is exempt!!!!!!!!!

What I am saying is that hiring an illegal immigrant (who you may or may not know is illegal) to wash dishes is not the moral equivalent of child prostitution.

So......the average homeowners that sub contract work out to some people hanging around the home depot should be having them fill out I-9's?

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Wow 10 pages on this

[Traviesa 0]

And what I'm saying is your comparison of hiring illegals to child prostitution is ridiculous. Most of the people I'm referring to (and I know there are places where illegals are treated terribly) treat their workers very well, make them a part of the family, that kind of thing. There's no exploitation here-the illegals get what they need-money, and the farmer gets what he needs-the work done at a cheap rate. Both are then able to provide for their families. So what do we do-do we allow the farmer to provide for his family or do we further exhaust the welfare system? Which evil is lesser to you?

Sure, next thing you know is we exempt struggling companies from minimum wage laws. We know how any accountant can make a company as rich or poor as need be. I mean, why make them pay minimum wage and risk their demise? Let's just lower the working age for kids once again so they can flip burgers at McD's for a buck and half a day at, say, 12 years of age? That should help the fast food insustry out in continuing to offer the cherished Dollar Menu. Hell, maybe we can roll that back and make it the half-dollar menu if only we get some of those kids to work at the meat plants for a buck fitty a day pressing the patties just a little thinner. How about that?

Children should be in school, not working.

They're in school and working at 16. Besides, where's your compassion for the poor family business that really needs them to work for slave wages to survive?

That's what the illegals are for. And actually you can work even younger than that but it is limited as to hours and you need a work permit from the school. I know because I began working at 15.

[pax 0]

What I am saying is that hiring an illegal immigrant (who you may or may not know is illegal) to wash dishes is not the moral equivalent of child prostitution.

No, it is not. And don't put words in my mouth. I did not say it was the moral equivalent of child prostitution--obviously it is not.

What I said was that if we allow employers to break laws about hiring undocumented aliens, what's to stop them from arguing that they had to hire children or skip paying taxes to survive?

Such things are the risk they take in coming over. It's like signing up for a dangerous job and wondering why you got hurt??

Just like the miners who were hurt or died because the coal mine owners didn't comply with mine safety laws? It's their own fault that they were injured or killed because, hey, they knew coal-mining was dangerous?

[Traviesa 0]

What I am saying is that hiring an illegal immigrant (who you may or may not know is illegal) to wash dishes is not the moral equivalent of child prostitution.

No, it is not. And don't put words in my mouth. I did not say it was the moral equivalent of child prostitution--obviously it is not.

What I said was that if we allow employers to break laws about hiring undocumented aliens, what's to stop them from arguing that they had to hire children or skip paying taxes to survive?

I think they're just different. I don't know how to explain why but I can see where someone might draw the line and say I'm willing to do this but I won't do that.

[pax 0]

I think they're just different. I don't know how to explain why but I can see where someone might draw the line and say I'm willing to do this but I won't do that.

Sure, you could draw that line, or I could, or anyone in this thread could. A lot of business owners couldn't. Or wouldn't.