apartments and dogs

[one...two...tree 2,762]

Another reason why we don't want a dog yet is because if we ever want to go away for a weekend or a long trip it's a pain to find a place or a person to watch the dog.

Good point. As cute as he was, I think I'll nix that idea! hehe

Good decision. For the record, ALL pet stores promise they don't use puppy mills. A lot of them might not even know. It's never a good idea.

Sorry, Charles, but pet stores are a thing of the past and there are too many bad ones to risk trusting that the one you're at is a good one. Whether or not it seems clean doesn't tell you where the animals come from.

a thing of the past? oh please you gonna buy a parrot off of the internet? word of mouth is a good indicator about pet stores - ask around, don't buy blindly at one.

in my experience puppy mills usually don't sell to pet stores, they sell to brokers. some pet stores may buy from a broker though and it would not surprise me if some of the puppies change hands half a dozen times before being sold to someone. a bit of advice - don't buy a cat. dog, bird from a pet store within several hundred miles of the mexico border either. it may have come across from mexico and yes i've seen some real horror stories from that.

my previous statement about a clean pet store was not meant to be a good indication about where the puppies came from. it was intended to indicate that if the store is clean, the puppies are taken care of better than mall pet stores. i've been in some that knock you down as soon as you walk in, i've been in some that you can't even tell there are puppies or cats in it.

while i won't condemn all pet stores like you have with your sweeping generalizations, i would point out that there is a major difference between a name brand pet store in a mall and a mid-sized independent not in the mall. the owner operated and run store is a better bet than a mall store for a pet imo.

First of all, Charles, you can't compare parrots to dogs...that's ridiculous. Secondly, where would a pet store get it's puppies if not from a puppy mill? Because any good dog breeder will tell you that you shouldn't separate the puppies from their mother. Imagine adopting a child from a store that puts them on display. Pet stores that sell puppies (unless they are rescued dogs) should be a thing of the past. It's barbaric.

[Nessa 23]

oh my. be aware of illegal mexican cats

miaow-hola!

[eric&gen 0]

I rather have a nice apartment then a pet i worry about were i would live first. Maybe in the future if one can afford a house then have a pet.

[Alex+R 0]

First of all, Charles, you can't compare parrots to dogs...that's ridiculous. Secondly, where would a pet store get it's puppies if not from a puppy mill? Because any good dog breeder will tell you that you shouldn't separate the puppies from their mother. Imagine adopting a child from a store that puts them on display. Pet stores that sell puppies (unless they are rescued dogs) should be a thing of the past. It's barbaric.

A good breeder sells directly to the client. I know you want to defend what your father does, Charles, but it really is a thing of the past. The big box stores (PetCo, PetSmart, etc.) don't even sell dogs and cats in them anymore; they have rescue organizations come in for certain specific times each week. Soon, the model will shift so pet stores no longer sell rodents and birds, etc., as well.

Charles, you're right about the brokers; there are only a few of them and that's where most pet stores get their animals. That doesn't change where they came from.

[Ban Hammer 13,644]

First of all, Charles, you can't compare parrots to dogs...that's ridiculous. Secondly, where would a pet store get it's puppies if not from a puppy mill? Because any good dog breeder will tell you that you shouldn't separate the puppies from their mother. Imagine adopting a child from a store that puts them on display. Pet stores that sell puppies (unless they are rescued dogs) should be a thing of the past. It's barbaric.

yes, i can. and i did. i know of both dogs and parrots being brought in from mexico.

as for where a pet store gets it's puppies from if not a puppy mill - ever consider maybe the owners raise them?

First of all, Charles, you can't compare parrots to dogs...that's ridiculous. Secondly, where would a pet store get it's puppies if not from a puppy mill? Because any good dog breeder will tell you that you shouldn't separate the puppies from their mother. Imagine adopting a child from a store that puts them on display. Pet stores that sell puppies (unless they are rescued dogs) should be a thing of the past. It's barbaric.

A good breeder sells directly to the client. I know you want to defend what your father does, Charles, but it really is a thing of the past. The big box stores (PetCo, PetSmart, etc.) don't even sell dogs and cats in them anymore; they have rescue organizations come in for certain specific times each week. Soon, the model will shift so pet stores no longer sell rodents and birds, etc., as well.

Charles, you're right about the brokers; there are only a few of them and that's where most pet stores get their animals. That doesn't change where they came from.

father did.......not does.

he was a breeder too btw. he didn't sell his own puppies in the store though due to him being able to get more for them as a private sale/breeder.

[no name 1]

as for where a pet store gets it's puppies from if not a puppy mill - ever consider maybe the owners raise them?

---

he was a breeder too btw. he didn't sell his own puppies in the store though due to him being able to get more for them as a private sale/breeder.

[*JG* 2]

In St. Louis, it kind of depends on the area. We have a lot of colleges here and I've found those areas surrounding the campus of college, seem to be more open to pets. I agree that the smaller the dog, the better. There is usually a size limit and a breed limit. The breed thing ticks me off cause my chow/rott mix is sweet as can be, yet discriminated against all the time.

You usually do pay either a bigger deposit or a slightly bigger monthly rent for a pet.

I, for one, think it is worth every penny of it.

[Alex+R 0]

as for where a pet store gets it's puppies from if not a puppy mill - ever consider maybe the owners raise them?

---

he was a breeder too btw. he didn't sell his own puppies in the store though due to him being able to get more for them as a private sale/breeder.

indeed.

Also, Charles, most of these pet stores have at least 20 dogs in there at one time, mostly of different breeds. That doesn't sound like responsible breeding to me, if that were the case (and I highly doubt it is anyway).

[mawilson 2,133]

I'd like to see legislation outlawing puppy mills.

I agree. Grinding puppies in a mill is just cruel - there are better and less painful ways to kill puppies.

[Ban Hammer 13,644]

as for where a pet store gets it's puppies from if not a puppy mill - ever consider maybe the owners raise them?

---

he was a breeder too btw. he didn't sell his own puppies in the store though due to him being able to get more for them as a private sale/breeder.

indeed.

Also, Charles, most of these pet stores have at least 20 dogs in there at one time, mostly of different breeds. That doesn't sound like responsible breeding to me, if that were the case (and I highly doubt it is anyway).

i'm aware of the number of different breeds in stores, yet how that is considered irresponsible breeding to you is beyond me just because there is a variety instead of one type. dad didn't have more than 10-15 puppies at a time as they were not a major form of income (think food, shots, time and labor keeping them cleaned up and it's not a big bottom line) but if it makes you feel better they'd take kittens from people and sell them for what they had in them from the shots - breaking even but getting the cats to a home where they were wanted instead of dumped in the countryside or worse.

i offered that about the owner having their own breeding stock but apparently that was lost. dad did sell primarily one breed as a breeder. and as dad could get more for selling privately than in a pet store, i can't say i blame him for that but it is and will remain a viable alternative for independent owners. also, would you sell a puppy for $300 in a store when you could get $450 or more as a breeder selling them at home?

while i too dislike chain pet stores (petsmart etc) i do give the benefit of the doubt to the independent stores. maybe you could too.

while puppy mills are geared towards greed and cash, dad didn't deal with them as any money saved from the wholesale purchase would be spent on medicine getting the puppy well, along with being very time intensive. and i'd bet you'll find that to be a common theme with independent pet store owners, they too won't get involved with puppy mills.

[no name 1]

while i too dislike chain pet stores (petsmart etc) i do give the benefit of the doubt to the independent stores.

Charles- you are contradicting yourself. You say owners breed yet your dad got more $$ elsewhere. So where DO those puppies come from?

Also- Petsmart does rescue adoptions. So hate the chain or not, they are not selling from puppy mills! They save dogs!!!

-----

Side note & big story here....

The HSUS Uncovers Deception at Beverly Hills-Area Pet Store to the Stars

December 11, 2007

Employees routinely hide the truth about the origin of many of the store's puppies and the health of the animals

LOS ANGELES – An investigation by The Humane Society of the United States of an upscale pet boutique, Pets of Bel Air, reveals that employees have routinely deceived customers by falsely claiming that all puppies sold at the store, which is frequented by Hollywood celebrities, are raised by private breeders and that the store doesn't buy from puppy mills. In fact, HSUS investigators uncovered evidence that many of the puppies sold there did come from puppy mills in the Midwest - factory-like operations where the dogs are kept in barren cages and treated like production machines.

Wayne Pacelle, president and CEO of The HSUS, unveiled the results of the undercover investigation today at a press conference at Los Angeles Animal Services.

The HSUS reviewed records documenting that at least 28 commercial breeders in Arkansas, Iowa, Kansas, Missouri and Oklahoma have supplied Pets of Bel Air with puppies. HSUS undercover investigators also visited five of the suppliers that store management insisted are "private breeders" and not "puppy mills." Each of those five locations, investigators discovered, are actually mass-breeding operations that house 100 to 300 dogs.

"Even the trendiest, most upscale pet stores may sell puppies from puppy mills," Pacelle said. "No consumer is immune to the lies and deceit. It doesn't matter who you are or where you shop. This investigation shows that a high-price and prestigious address are no assurance of a dog from a reputable breeder."

State and federal inspection reports examined by HSUS investigators reveal that some of Pets of Bel Air breeder/dealers have been cited for their failure to comply with animal-welfare regulations, including inaccurate or non-existent recordkeeping; inadequate shelter from the elements; rusted, filthy and overcrowded cages; leaky roofs; feces-encrusted runs; filthy food bowls and, at one Missouri puppy mill, a leaking waste disposal system that "allows the waste to flow out onto the ground and on other animals." Two of the breeders did not have a USDA license, which is required for commercial breeding operations that sell puppies to pet stores.

The HSUS investigation, which took place earlier this year inside Pets of Bel Air and at several of the Midwestern puppy mills that supplied the store, reveals that Pets of Bel Air employees are encouraged by management to be dishonest with patrons about some of the animals' origins and medical conditions. Employees deny, for example, that any dogs come from puppy mills, and when puppies in the store are sick, Pets of Bel Air employees are encouraged to downplay the seriousness of their illness.

Pets of Bel Air employees stated that Britney Spears, Paris Hilton, Denise Richards, Demi Moore and Robin Williams are among the store's celebrity clientele. In addition to selling puppies and other animals, the boutique also sells pet supplies and offers grooming services.

Ed Boks, general manager of Los Angeles Animal Services, joined Pacelle in calling on people to adopt from shelters and not patronize pet stores that sell puppies. Pets of Bel Air is also out of compliance with city licensing requirements, according to Boks.

"Los Angeles Animal Services has wonderful dogs of all shapes and sizes just waiting for a loving home," said Boks. "The rich and famous who patronize Pets of Bel Air instead of adopting dogs from animal shelters are sending the wrong message that pet store puppies are worth their high price tags."

Author, psychologist and philanthropist Dr. Jana Kohl rescued her dog Baby from a California puppy mill. Kohl and Baby were also on hand for the press conference. Baby's vocal cords were cut by the puppy mill operator, and she lost a leg due to the harsh treatment she received during her years as a breeder.

The HSUS has been working to stop these cruel enterprises, using the courts, the legislative process, undercover investigations, and public-awareness campaigns. Last month, another HSUS investigation threw a spotlight on a shocking puppy mill problem in Virginia, and rescued hundreds of dogs from a single operation.

Facts:

* Adopting from an animal shelter, where one out of every four dogs is a purebred, or from a purebred rescue group, can help stop the puppy mill business.

* Puppy mills contribute to millions of unwanted dogs who are euthanized each year in the United States.

* About 2,500 of the nation's 9,000 pet stores sell puppies.

* The HSUS estimates 2 million to 4 million puppy mill puppies are sold annually in the United States.

* Mill puppies are more likely to have severe health problems, genetic defects and behavioral issues.

* Documented puppy mill conditions include over-breeding, inbreeding, minimal veterinary care, poor food and shelter, crowded cages and lack of socialization.

* Dogs kept for breeding in puppy mills suffer for years and are bred as often as possible before they are killed, sold through auction like used cars or abandoned.

* Unscrupulous breeders use attractive websites to hide the truth and to dupe the public into thinking that they are dealing with a reputable breeder.

* Reputable breeders never sell puppies over the Internet or through a pet store. They will insist on meeting the family who wants to buy the dog.

source

[Alex+R 0]

as for where a pet store gets it's puppies from if not a puppy mill - ever consider maybe the owners raise them?

---

he was a breeder too btw. he didn't sell his own puppies in the store though due to him being able to get more for them as a private sale/breeder.

indeed.

Also, Charles, most of these pet stores have at least 20 dogs in there at one time, mostly of different breeds. That doesn't sound like responsible breeding to me, if that were the case (and I highly doubt it is anyway).

i'm aware of the number of different breeds in stores, yet how that is considered irresponsible breeding to you is beyond me just because there is a variety instead of one type. dad didn't have more than 10-15 puppies at a time as they were not a major form of income (think food, shots, time and labor keeping them cleaned up and it's not a big bottom line) but if it makes you feel better they'd take kittens from people and sell them for what they had in them from the shots - breaking even but getting the cats to a home where they were wanted instead of dumped in the countryside or worse.

Charles I'm not criticizing your dad. I'm sure he took care of the dogs.

i offered that about the owner having their own breeding stock but apparently that was lost. dad did sell primarily one breed as a breeder. and as dad could get more for selling privately than in a pet store, i can't say i blame him for that but it is and will remain a viable alternative for independent owners. also, would you sell a puppy for $300 in a store when you could get $450 or more as a breeder selling them at home?

I don't see how this is relevant. Why would I care where he sold his puppies? The point was, if your dad made more money selling them outside a shop, why do you think other breeders would sell them IN a shop?

while i too dislike chain pet stores (petsmart etc) i do give the benefit of the doubt to the independent stores. maybe you could too.

Actually I have no problem with the big box pet stores in terms of pet sales, since for cats and dogs it's all rescue animals from shelters and foster groups. I wish they didn't sell birds and rodents, but they're on the right track. There is no reason to give your average independent store the benefit of the doubt when the majority have awful track records. It just wouldn't be logical.

while puppy mills are geared towards greed and cash, dad didn't deal with them as any money saved from the wholesale purchase would be spent on medicine getting the puppy well, along with being very time intensive. and i'd bet you'll find that to be a common theme with independent pet store owners, they too won't get involved with puppy mills.

Unfortunately, that's not a common theme. Most of them don't get involved with puppy mills; they get involved with brokers or local distributors for brokers.

I know you want to be optimistic about the whole situation, but that's just not the way things are.

[Ban Hammer 13,644]

while i too dislike chain pet stores (petsmart etc) i do give the benefit of the doubt to the independent stores.

Charles- you are contradicting yourself. You say owners breed yet your dad got more $$ elsewhere. So where DO those puppies come from?

Also- Petsmart does rescue adoptions. So hate the chain or not, they are not selling from puppy mills! They save dogs!!!

read a bit more carefully will you?

um i'm pointing out what i've seen. make what you wish outta it

[Ban Hammer 13,644]

Charles I'm not criticizing your dad. I'm sure he took care of the dogs.

he did.

I don't see how this is relevant. Why would I care where he sold his puppies? The point was, if your dad made more money selling them outside a shop, why do you think other breeders would sell them IN a shop?

you did seem wound up about it. as for why other breeders would sell them in a shop, it could well be due to slow personal sales. seen that before too.

Actually I have no problem with the big box pet stores in terms of pet sales, since for cats and dogs it's all rescue animals from shelters and foster groups. I wish they didn't sell birds and rodents, but they're on the right track. There is no reason to give your average independent store the benefit of the doubt when the majority have awful track records. It just wouldn't be logical.

stereotype much alex? you wish to include every independent pet store in that sweeping generalization? you're right about something......"It just wouldn't be logical."

[no name 1]

while i too dislike chain pet stores (petsmart etc) i do give the benefit of the doubt to the independent stores.

Charles- you are contradicting yourself. You say owners breed yet your dad got more $$ elsewhere. So where DO those puppies come from?

Also- Petsmart does rescue adoptions. So hate the chain or not, they are not selling from puppy mills! They save dogs!!!

read a bit more carefully will you?

um i'm pointing out what i've seen. make what you wish outta it

back at ya Charles.

Your said your dad made money as a breeder than selling those pups in the shop. So he got pups from owners/breeders/mills.

You said chain shops suck yet they are saving lives. Not hard to read the good in that, is there?