It's up to citizens of United States to stop illegal immigration

[peejay 327]

You misunderstand me. I am not saying that immigration levels have to rise. I am saying that freaking out because the absolute numbers are higher when the relative numbers, as a percentage of population, are lower is dumb. I am saying that 'immigrants and descendants of immigrants" and freaking out on the assumption that they're all not going to assimilate is also beyond dumb.

I'm more freaked out about the numbers. I just don't think it is necessary or desirable. In fact, I think it is disasterous in the long run. Nobody seems to want to explain why we need to go there.

[rebeccajo 14]

"According to Beck, the results have been devastating: plentiful, cheap immigrant labor has distorted business decisions in a way that has slowed productivity growth, depressed wages, reduced worker benefits, and dramatically shifted hiring from native-born Americans to foreign workers in a number of both lower-paid and higher-paid occupations. African-Americans have suffered disproportionately in the current wave of mass immigration, which has knocked large numbers down the economic ladder as employers have chosen immigrants over African-American workers."

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/forum/beck.html

It's always interesting when someone puts up their sources, isn't it?

I like your links, but here are mine where I got the graphs:

http://www.census.gov/ipc/www/idb/worldpopinfo.html

http://www.susps.org/overview/numbers.html

I googled Roy Beck, the man from whose work one of the graphs was tabulated. His name in your graph.

Actually, what I find fascinating by the graph is how accurate it is even though it was first published in 1996. The sad fact is that if actual trends continue unabated we will have 120+ million more people in the USA in the next 43 years. Nothing to celebrate IMO. And there are people in this country that think there is not enough immigration into the USA and want even more! I don't get it and am still waiting for someone to explain to me why we need to go there.

BTW, Roy Beck is executive director of NumbersUSA. It's worth a look. It makes a lot more sense than a lot of the one line cliches I often see posted.

http://www.numbersusa.com/index

If I get the basic premise of NumbersUSA, many of our societal ills could be cured by limiting immigration to the US.

Correct me if I am wrong.

[peejay 327]

"According to Beck, the results have been devastating: plentiful, cheap immigrant labor has distorted business decisions in a way that has slowed productivity growth, depressed wages, reduced worker benefits, and dramatically shifted hiring from native-born Americans to foreign workers in a number of both lower-paid and higher-paid occupations. African-Americans have suffered disproportionately in the current wave of mass immigration, which has knocked large numbers down the economic ladder as employers have chosen immigrants over African-American workers."

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/forum/beck.html

It's always interesting when someone puts up their sources, isn't it?

I like your links, but here are mine where I got the graphs:

http://www.census.gov/ipc/www/idb/worldpopinfo.html

http://www.susps.org/overview/numbers.html

I googled Roy Beck, the man from whose work one of the graphs was tabulated. His name in your graph.

Actually, what I find fascinating by the graph is how accurate it is even though it was first published in 1996. The sad fact is that if actual trends continue unabated we will have 120+ million more people in the USA in the next 43 years. Nothing to celebrate IMO. And there are people in this country that think there is not enough immigration into the USA and want even more! I don't get it and am still waiting for someone to explain to me why we need to go there.

BTW, Roy Beck is executive director of NumbersUSA. It's worth a look. It makes a lot more sense than a lot of the one line cliches I often see posted.

http://www.numbersusa.com/index

If I get the basic premise of NumbersUSA, many of our societal ills could be cured by limiting immigration to the US.

Correct me if I am wrong.

You know better than that. A utopia without immigrants? Nobody is saying that. Nobody is suggesting that. It's all about numbers. At least that is the way I see it. Why exacerbate existing problems through mass immigration? I could care less whether it is legal or illegal. It's all about numbers.

As far as I'm concerned the Fed can cut legal immigration to zero to make up for the explosion of illegal immigration. In fact, they really should. This present situation has been shoved up our azzes. Who voted for 12 to 20 illegal aliens? I didn't. Neither did anyone else. If our government refuses to control the back door...they need to make up for the oversight and malfeasance through the front door.

Maybe then this country will wake up to what has and is being imposed on us. We can at least start to choose our destiny instead of having it imposed on us. And "by us" I mean the vast majority of American citizens that do not like the direction our country is heading. I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me why we had to add 75 million to our population in the last 27 years and why we need to add another 120 million in the next 43 years through mass immigration.

Or at least pick the graph apart and expose it as a lie. In the last 12 years it has shown itself to be pretty accurate even though present trends show 420+ million by 2050.

Edited January 6, 2008 by peejay

[Fandango 1,440]

I wish for once we could all have a real discussion about illegals without all the finger pointing and cried of racism and the 'oh noes the brown pplz!' sh!t...it gets oh.so.tiring.

[kerewin21 2]

To quote Roy Beck (from Becca's link)

A question from Sally Holmes of Bethesda, MD:

Right now, we only seem to be punishing those who take the jobs illegal immigrants), but what about punishing those who HIRE illegal workers? How do you recommend employers be monitored?

Roy Beck responds:

I'm sorry to sidestep this question because my book is entirely about the problems of legal immigration. Illegal immigration will be much more difficult to resolve and will take scores of creative solutions. But the problems of legal immigration are the largest and the most easily resolved. Congress and the president merely have to enact a lower number and legal immigration can instantly be drastically cut. Interestingly, cutting legal immigration eventually will make it easier to cut illegal. It is the relatives and fellow villagers from the home country who come as legal immigrants who are essential for many illegal aliens in providing shelter from detection and in helping them to enter the labor market. It is also those legal immigrants who send back letters and gifts that entice more people to leave their Third World villages and urban neighborhoods to enter the United States, often illegally.

Are any of you really jumping on THAT bandwagon?

[rebeccajo 14]

All I did was read. I read the post and I looked at the graphs. I then went looking for the source of the graphs.

I believe in checking out the source of statistics before I use them. It's not really hard to find someone who can give you the numbers you want to back up any argument. It is hard, though, to find numbers from a source who doesn't contradict what you want to argue.

Unless there is more to some of the arguing than meets the eye.

Edited January 6, 2008 by rebeccajo

[peejay 327]

To quote Roy Beck (from Becca's link)

A question from Sally Holmes of Bethesda, MD:

Right now, we only seem to be punishing those who take the jobs illegal immigrants), but what about punishing those who HIRE illegal workers? How do you recommend employers be monitored?

Roy Beck responds:

I'm sorry to sidestep this question because my book is entirely about the problems of legal immigration. Illegal immigration will be much more difficult to resolve and will take scores of creative solutions. But the problems of legal immigration are the largest and the most easily resolved. Congress and the president merely have to enact a lower number and legal immigration can instantly be drastically cut. Interestingly, cutting legal immigration eventually will make it easier to cut illegal. It is the relatives and fellow villagers from the home country who come as legal immigrants who are essential for many illegal aliens in providing shelter from detection and in helping them to enter the labor market. It is also those legal immigrants who send back letters and gifts that entice more people to leave their Third World villages and urban neighborhoods to enter the United States, often illegally.

Are any of you really jumping on THAT bandwagon?

I see it every day in Houston (a major human trafficking hub for illegal aliens from Mexico). The ones already here (legal and illegal) pay the smuggling fees for their relatives and amigos while setting them up with illegal work and harboring them. It enables the whole mess to exist.

Illegal and legal immigration go hand in hand. Legal immigration enables illegal immigration to flourish. It's a big Ponzi scheme. Just like repeated illegal alien amnesties.

[rebeccajo 14]

Illegal and legal immigration go hand in hand. Legal immigration enables illegal immigration to flourish. It's a big Ponzi scheme. Just like repeated illegal alien amnesties.

[Alex+R 0]

Illegal and legal immigration go hand in hand. Legal immigration enables illegal immigration to flourish. It's a big Ponzi scheme. Just like repeated illegal alien amnesties.

[no name 1]

Convenient how both of you left out his previous statement defining how that happens.

Edited January 6, 2008 by devilette

[Alex+R 0]

To quote Roy Beck (from Becca's link)

A question from Sally Holmes of Bethesda, MD:

Right now, we only seem to be punishing those who take the jobs illegal immigrants), but what about punishing those who HIRE illegal workers? How do you recommend employers be monitored?

Roy Beck responds:

I'm sorry to sidestep this question because my book is entirely about the problems of legal immigration. Illegal immigration will be much more difficult to resolve and will take scores of creative solutions. But the problems of legal immigration are the largest and the most easily resolved. Congress and the president merely have to enact a lower number and legal immigration can instantly be drastically cut. Interestingly, cutting legal immigration eventually will make it easier to cut illegal. It is the relatives and fellow villagers from the home country who come as legal immigrants who are essential for many illegal aliens in providing shelter from detection and in helping them to enter the labor market. It is also those legal immigrants who send back letters and gifts that entice more people to leave their Third World villages and urban neighborhoods to enter the United States, often illegally.

Are any of you really jumping on THAT bandwagon?

I see it every day in Houston (a major human trafficking hub for illegal aliens from Mexico). The ones already here (legal and illegal) pay the smuggling fees for their relatives and amigos while setting them up with illegal work and harboring them. It enables the whole mess to exist.

Illegal and legal immigration go hand in hand. Legal immigration enables illegal immigration to flourish. It's a big Ponzi scheme. Just like repeated illegal alien amnesties.

Better?

[rebeccajo 14]

Convenient how both of you left out his previous statement defining how that happens.

Yes it was.

I'm looking for the centric core of the mindset of these threads.

If I have to pick my way through the garbage to get to it, then so be it.

"Illegal and legal immigration going hand in hand" doesn't sound (to me) like commentary from someone who is pi$$ed off about illegals stealing SS numbers, using social services they aren't entitled to, or any of the other arguments used on a daily basis about those immigrants who are TRULY flying under the radar and disregarding the laws of our land. It smells more to me like isolationist fearmongering. God forbid anyone not native born live here - unless of course, they are 'your immigrant'.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

Convenient how both of you left out his previous statement defining how that happens.

Yes it was.

I'm looking for the centric core of the mindset of these threads.

If I have to pick my way through the garbage to get to it, then so be it.

"Illegal and legal immigration going hand in hand" doesn't sound (to me) like commentary from someone who is pi$$ed off about illegals stealing SS numbers, using social services they aren't entitled to, or any of the other arguments used on a daily basis about those immigrants who are TRULY flying under the radar and disregarding the laws of our land. It smells more to me like isolationist fearmongering. God forbid anyone not native born live here - unless of course, they are 'your immigrant'.

Exactly. No offense to peejay, but his statement sounds an awful lot like the rhetoric from NumbersUSA.com. Tancredo was closely tied to these fringe groups who's overall view is that they want a reduction of immigrants in this country, but their political strategy has been to keep the more controversial aspects of their agenda out of the radar and focus on illegal immigration.

[slim 1,533]

What I want to know is why we're arguing about anything other than the cost of gas.

How on earth did they "sneak in" a 400% cost increase without us so much as anyone "lifting a finger" to stop them? And we want to argue about illegal immigrants causing problems in our society?

Come on.

We have bigger fish to fry.

[kerewin21 2]

What I want to know is why we're arguing about anything other than the cost of gas.

How on earth did they "sneak in" a 400% cost increase without us so much as anyone "lifting a finger" to stop them? And we want to argue about illegal immigrants causing problems in our society?

Come on.

We have bigger fish to fry.

OK, I'll bite. The only way we will ever decrease our dependency on oil (which has grave implications for our foreign policy) is for people to bite the bullet and have to spend more for gasoline. This will force people to drive less, use public transportation more, carpool, and buy more fuel-efficient cars.

Of course, it really sucks for the people who live in rural areas with no public transportation (thanks to our government's lack of investment in public transportation) and for people who can't afford more fuel-efficient cars. But you shouldn't be outraged at the increase in gas prices (it's based on what the market will bear). You should be outraged that your government did nothing to protect you from this inevitable situation. We are very reliant on a finite resource. If the government had invested in public transportation and required improved fuel economy years ago, things would be easier right now and those who are poor and living in rural areas wouldn't be so screwed.