Israel's Arab citizens face isolation, exclusion

[doodlebugg 10]

[desert_fox 32]

Can you say apartheid??? I'm all for Israel's right to exist, but sheesh...

Fatina and Ahmad Zubeidat, young Arab citizens of Israel, met on the first day of class at the prestigious Bezalel arts and architecture academy in Jerusalem. Married last year, the couple rents an airy house here in the Galilee filled with stylish furniture and other modern grace notes.

But this is not where they wanted to live. They had hoped to be in Rakefet, a nearby town where 150 Jewish families live on state land close to the mall project Ahmad is building. After months of interviews and testing, the town's admission committee rejected the Arab couple on the grounds of "social incompatibility."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22335973/

s this better or worse than the way the Jewish ppl are treated that may be citizens of some arab country??

[doodlebugg 10]

Can you say apartheid??? I'm all for Israel's right to exist, but sheesh...

Fatina and Ahmad Zubeidat, young Arab citizens of Israel, met on the first day of class at the prestigious Bezalel arts and architecture academy in Jerusalem. Married last year, the couple rents an airy house here in the Galilee filled with stylish furniture and other modern grace notes.

But this is not where they wanted to live. They had hoped to be in Rakefet, a nearby town where 150 Jewish families live on state land close to the mall project Ahmad is building. After months of interviews and testing, the town's admission committee rejected the Arab couple on the grounds of "social incompatibility."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22335973/

s this better or worse than the way the Jewish ppl are treated that may be citizens of some arab country??

Does it really make a difference? As my mom always taught me two wrongs don't make a right. What came first, the chicken or the egg? If peace is the goal at some point someone has to blink, yes?

[Dr. A ♥ O 203]

Whew.

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

I'm sorry, but the Arabs aren't exactly welcoming to the Israelis either. Works both ways.

You talk about "the Arabs" as if they are some crowd of identical clones, all sharing the same ideas, attitudes, and behavior. You then use this piece of bigotry to casually insinuate that "the Arabs" are somehow equally responsible for each other's behavior -- across the dozens of countries and hundreds of different ethic communities and socio-economic groups throughout the Middle East, with all the various political and religious persuasions and cultural traditions -- and so should be collectively punished for any "wrongs" against Jewish people. Is this your theory of criminal or social justice ?

I lived next door to Israelis when I lived in Egypt. These poor souls had to have their cars "swept" every day, had to have cameras installed in their flat, and we had to have guards posted outside our building constantly- day and night.

What in the world does this have to do with Israel's legally-sanctioned system of institutionalized discrimination against the Palestinians -- including 20% of its own citizens, and millions of others held under military occupation -- simply because of their ethnicity/religion ? What you describe is a situation where criminals are threatening some foreigners, and how the state of Egypt evidently took serious action to prevent those foreigners from being harmed. You say there were guards posted at the building -- cameras in their flat -- they were getting their cars "swept" every day -- so then, the state of Egypt was not legalizing their persecution.

And of course many, many Israelis go to Egypt (and to Jordan) all the time for business and vacations and shopping -- and don't have any problems like this.

If you have an Israeli visa in your passport, many Arab countries won't let you travel there. When my co-workers in Egypt travelled to Jerusalem, they had to beg the Israeli passport control to NOT stamp their passport because they would be so hassled when trying to travel elsewhere in the Middle East.

They "had to beg" ??? Uh..... it's no big deal at all to get Israeli border control to stamp a separate piece of paper rather than your passport. Israel is well aware of the diplomatic problems its behavior has caused. The border guard asked me before I even mentioned it -- did I want her to stamp my passport or not. They will do this for anyone upon request, saying "we understand, no problem." Well unless you are Arab. Then it's a whole 'nother ball of wax. So....... are your co-workers Arab ?????

Anyway, this incident has nothing to do with the topic, either. Please try to focus: we are talking about a state's legalized system of discrimination against its own citizens due to their race/ethnicity.

Israel is the target of diplomatic sanctions and boycotts because it is an apartheid state, just like South Africa was. And it's coming to the same divide in the road. Remember the U.S. was the last country in the world to get on board against apartheid South Africa -- as recently as the 1980s, Ronald Reagan was calling Nelson Mandela a terrorist. Americans have been fed so much pro-Israel propaganda that they're the last ones in the world to realize what Zionism really is, but they're starting to wake up. And if you will go back and read the article I posted more closely, you will see why the changing winds have Israelis like Ehud Olmert so worried.

Both sides are exclusionary and both sides are too stubborn/foolish to learn to coexist.

Certainly there are violent extremists on both sides. However, in Israel they are running the government, and have been since its creation.

In fact, Jews and Muslims (and Christians) coexisted in relative peace in the Holy Land for hundreds of years. The present conflict started in the early 20th century, as the Zionist movement started its forcible colonization of historic Palestine. And the problem really came to a head after Israel proclaimed its statehood in 1947 (a year before the UN resolution) and began large-scale ethnic cleansing and annexation of territory, at terrible expense to the indigenous Palestinian Arabs. Zionist armies and terror gangs rampaged far beyond the 54% of historic Palestine mandated by the UN, eventually destroying more than 400 Palestinian villages and either slaughtering or driving out their inhabitants. Afterward, the State of Israel renamed almost every physical site in the country to wipe out the memory of its Palestinian past.

And today, it is Israel that mandates Jewish-only roads and Jewish-only neighborhoods, even runs an entirely separate school system for its Jewish children, apart from its Arab children. It is Israeli politicians who talk of transferring Arab citizens out of Israel. It is Israeli leaders who talk of trading areas inside Israel with a heavy Arab population to the Palestinian Authority, in exchange for keeping its illegal Jewish settlements already built deep inside the West Bank.

So..... who is it again who didn't want to coexist ?

Too many Palestinians are often their own worst enemies with their rock throwing, their flag burning, their calls to destroy Israel and America, their suicide bombings, and their support of Hamas.

I don't think any of these are valid reasons to imprison and torment an entire population. Neither does the Geneva Convention or international law. And that's aside from the issue of discriminating on the basis of race/religion.

Let's not forget their "humble" leader, Arafat, who soaked up millions when his "people" were starving.

You do realize that Arafat has been dead for like 3 years now ? As for corruption -- seems you don't read the latest headlines in the Jerusalem Post. Let's see.... what have Israeli government officials been charged with lately -- oh my -- bribery, fraud, rape, sexual assault, money laundering, what else...... (are there enough hours in the day ???)

Anyway, Palestinians weren't quite starving under Arafat. But they're certainly starving now, and it's because of Israel -- destroying the Palestinian economy by caging 4 million people into cantons and separating them from their jobs, their farms, their schools, their hospitals and their markets with hundreds of checkpoints, closures, refusals to grant travel permits, not to mention The Wall.

Of course in Gaza, Israel is using a much more obvious strategy to starve them -- just block the food shipments from even being able to enter.

Most of the Middle East is a mess for very clear reasons... Dictatorships, religious political systems, corrupt leaders, and large pockets of uneducated, poor people that are easily mislead and manipulated = a mess.

Hmmmm dictatorships.... you mean like the ones that the U.S. helped put in power and continues to support (In contrast, the Palestinians had a free and open democratic election -- the most monitored in the Arab world -- and look how they were rewarded for it.)

Hmmmmm religious political systems and corrupt leaders -- you mean like.... in Israel ?

Hmmmm large pockets of uneducated, poor people that are easily misled and manipulated -- you mean like the masses of poor hardworking American taxpayers who have to be fed a constant diet of pro-Israeli propaganda so they will docilely allow their government to keep squandering their blood and treasure to benefit Israel's regional aspirations ?

So yeah I guess you're right -- it does seem pretty clear why most of the Middle East is a mess.

I'll be back at another time to deal with your second post....

[wildroze22 0]

no... only the israelis have ever persecuted because of race or religion in the middle east... really?

Why Jews Fled the Arab Countries

by Ya'akov Meron

Middle East Quarterly

September 1995

Ya'akov Meron holds a doctorate in law from the Faculté de Droit de Paris and is an authority on Islamic law and the law of Arab countries. He was a member of the Israeli delegation to negotiate the peace treaty with Egypt and to solve the Taba issue.

In a key address before the Political Committee of the U.N. General Assembly on November 14, 1947, just five days before that body voted on the partition plan for Palestine, Heykal Pasha, an Egyptian delegate, made the following key statement in connection with that plan:

The United Nations . . . should not lose sight of the fact that the proposed solution might endanger a million Jews living in the Moslem countries. Partition of Palestine might create in those countries an anti-Semitism even more difficult to root out than the anti-Semitism which the Allies were trying to eradicate in Germany. . . If the United Nations decides to partition Palestine, it might be responsible for the massacre of a large number of Jews.

....

"It would seem that most people in Egypt are unaware of the fact that among Egyptian Muslisms there are some who have white skin. Every time I board a tram I hear people pointing at me with a finger and saying "Jew," "Jew." I have been beaten more than once because of this. For that reason I humbly beg that my picture (enclosed) be published with the explanation that I am not Jewish and that my name is Adham Mustafa Galeb."

Remarkably, some Palestinians have come to see Jewish sovereignty in Israel in terms of a population exchange, and as the necessary price to be paid for the Arab expulsions. 'Isam as-Sirtawi, who participated in some well-known terrorist operations but later excelled in seeking contact with the Israelis, told Ha-'Olam Ha-zé editor Uri Avneir that he gave up terrorism against Israel and instead began promoting negotiations when he realized that Israel serves as the asylum for Jews expelled from Arab countries; and that there is no going back along that path.44 Sabri Jiryis, director of the Institute of Palestine Studies in Beirut, enumerated in 1975 the factors leading to the establishment of the State of Israel. The Arab states had much to do with this, for they expelled the Jews "in a most ugly fashion, and after confiscating their possessions or taking control thereof at the lowest price." These Jews then

Participated in the reinforcement of Israel, its strengthening and fortification to the degree we see it as present. . . . There is no need to say that the problem of those Jews and their passage to Israel is not merely theoretical, at least from the viewpoint of the Palestinian problem. Clearly, Israel will raise the question in all serious negotiation that may in time be conducted over the rights of the Palestinians. . . . Israel's arguments take approximately the following form: "It is true that we Israelis brought about the exodus of the Arabs from their land in the war of 1948 . . . and that we took control of their property. In return however you Arabs caused the expulsion of a like number of Jews from Arab countries since 1948 until today. Most of these went to Israel after you seized control of their property in one way or another. What happened, therefore, is merely a kind of 'population and property transfer,' the consequences of which both sides have to bear. Thus Israel gathers in the Jews from Arab countries and the Arab countries are obliged in turn to settle the Palestinians within their own borders and work towards a solution of the problem". Israel will undoubtedly advance these claims in the first real debate over the Palestinian problem.45

In brief, 'Arif, Sirtawi, and Jiryis recognize that the expulsion of a million Jews from the Arab countries renders the return of Arab refugees infeasible. This realization is compounded by the fact that almost half a century has elapsed since the beginning of the refugee problem, both Arab and Jewish, within the Arab-Israeli conflict. Those individuals to be involved in any future rehabilitation program will mostly be heirs, and even grandchildren, of the original refugees.

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

no... only the israelis have ever persecuted because of race or religion in the middle east... really?

Who said that ? Quote, please.

Why Jews Fled the Arab Countries

by Ya'akov Meron

Middle East Quarterly

September 1995

.....etc. etc.

Middle East Quarterly ????? Are you frickin serious ?????? LMAO. This is a hardcore Zionist propaganda site with absolutely no credibility, brought to you by Chief Islamophobe Daniel Pipes -- the same man who said:

"There can be either an Israel or a Palestine, but not both. To think that two states can stably and peacefully coexist in the small territory between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea is to be either naïve or duplicitous. If the last seventy years teach anything, it is that there can be only one state west of the Jordan River. Therefore, to those who ask why the Palestinians must be deprived of a state, the answer is simple: grant them one and you set in motion a chain of events that will lead either to its extinction or the extinction of Israel."

I'm at work now but don't worry -- I'll be back later when I have a bit of time, and I'll bust up that piece of ####### line by line.....

Edited December 24, 2007 by wife_of_mahmoud

[wildroze22 0]

no... only the israelis have ever persecuted because of race or religion in the middle east... really?

Who said that ? Quote, please.

Why Jews Fled the Arab Countries

by Ya'akov Meron

Middle East Quarterly

September 1995

.....etc. etc.

Middle East Quarterly ????? Are you frickin serious ?????? LMAO. This is a hardcore Zionist propaganda site with absolutely no credibility, brought to you by Chief Islamophobe Daniel Pipes -- the same man who said:

"There can be either an Israel or a Palestine, but not both. To think that two states can stably and peacefully coexist in the small territory between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea is to be either naïve or duplicitous. If the last seventy years teach anything, it is that there can be only one state west of the Jordan River. Therefore, to those who ask why the Palestinians must be deprived of a state, the answer is simple: grant them one and you set in motion a chain of events that will lead either to its extinction or the extinction of Israel."

I'm at work now but don't worry -- I'll be back later when I have a bit of time, and I'll bust up that piece of ####### line by line.....

i believe that you agree with his quote no? that only one state can exist west of the jordan river? or have i been interpreting your comments wrong?

if you dont like that article i can pull a million more. www.jimena.org is one page discussing the expulsion of jews from arab countries after similar persecution as other jews recieved in european countries. "The Forgotten Millions: The Modern Jewish Exodus from Arab Lands", "The anti -Jewish Farhd in Baghdad", "North African Jewry in the Twentieth Century", etc...

oh and that first sentance was my own, not a quote... otherwise i wouldve quoted it.

[sandinista! 1,816]

please learn some reading comprehension skills before attempting to contribute to this discussion. the quote about "there can be only one state west of the jordan river" is from YOUR source-daniel pipes, the bigot behind middle east quarterly, where you pulled this ridiculous article. it's the equivalent of someone here pulling out a david duke publication. it's an embarrassing and disgraceful source, and an insult to the intelligence of anyone reading it.

i'm still laughing at the absurdity of this-"the expulsion of jews from arab countries after similar persecution as other jews recieved in european countries." unbelievable. it is no accident that there are so many north african jews in israel and elsewhere, it is because when the chips were down they were protected from the nazis. looking to europe - even indirectly occupied europe - one does not find too many enlightening stories like when the sultan of morocco refused to turn over moroccan jews to vichy-controlled france. vichy france on the other hand, participated rather happily. the iranian ambassador to vichy france gave 500 french jews iranian passports and thus saved them from the nazis. albania, a country whose population is majority muslim sheltered escaping jews in numbers very disproportionate to other occupied places in europe. none of this excuses the idiocies that most of the arab & related world (although again far less so in north africa) inflicted on its jewish minority, nor to deny that even in north africa there was discrimination etc. but discrimination is not equivalent to auschwitz. discrimination is not equivalent to russian pogroms. discrimination is not genocide. and expulsion from some arab countries during the 1948 war is not genocide. not by any stretch of the imagination. a more apt comparison might be to the detainment of japanese americans in internment camps during the 1940s. horrific and wrong, but NOT genocide. and hey, on the conservative side, you'll even find people who will defend the us doing so in the 40s. michelle malkin got famous off it. but please, stop insulting the horrors of what happened in europe by making ridiculous comparisons. yr not even close. next time do some better research before you come here spouting 9th-rate propaganda.

[Ban Hammer 13,333]

oh brother

[kerewin21 2]

Can you say apartheid??? I'm all for Israel's right to exist, but sheesh...

Fatina and Ahmad Zubeidat, young Arab citizens of Israel, met on the first day of class at the prestigious Bezalel arts and architecture academy in Jerusalem. Married last year, the couple rents an airy house here in the Galilee filled with stylish furniture and other modern grace notes.

But this is not where they wanted to live. They had hoped to be in Rakefet, a nearby town where 150 Jewish families live on state land close to the mall project Ahmad is building. After months of interviews and testing, the town's admission committee rejected the Arab couple on the grounds of "social incompatibility."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22335973/

Is this better or worse than the way the Jewish ppl are treated that may be citizens of some arab country??

I agree, Jews are segregated in predominantly Muslim countries, and often face persecution and violence. (My husband consistently says that Jews are well-treated in Morocco, but the attacks on the synagogues and the mass exodus of Morocco's Jewish population argues otherwise)

But as someone else pointed out, two wrongs don't make a right. Someone has to grow up here (preferably everyone).

Edited December 26, 2007 by kerewin21