NJ to require all children attending preschool or daycare to get annual flu shots

[sandinista! 1,816]

the antibodies yr body makes when immunized are the same antibodies it makes when exposed "naturally" to a pathogen. the likelihood of there being complications from an immunization are far less than the natural exposure of letting an illness rampage through yr body to get those antibodies.

from everything i've been taught about immunity, i've never heard of there being "damage" done to the immune system by getting immunized. it's not like all yr immunity is going to be "used up" from getting immunized so then you won't have anything left over to fight diseases you can't be immunized against. for the majority of individuals with healthy, normal immunes systems, this isn't an issue. maybe sharon knows more details about that though.

i realize you said of course the elderly, very young, etc. should be immunized. but why should you worry, right? public health isn't an individualized deal. you being immunized means there's one less person able to spread it to those who couldn't be immunized for whatever reason, and for whom this illness could lead to a a very bad outcome. it's about community protection, not just individuals. what do you mean by unnecessary vaccines? which ones are unnecessary? why?

[Caladan 19]

ta me go's right. The vaccine doesn't take away your natural immunity, or supplement it. It stimulates your body to produce antibodies by presenting your immune system with dead critters to react to. Functionally, it's the same as actually getting the disease would be, in terms of your immune system's training, except that you don't actually get sick. So if you are exposed to it in the wild, your body already knows what to do with it.

Now, as to VJ Troll's point, whether we're evading evolution by allowing people who would have otherwise died of the flu to live because they never contracted it... hell if I know. To say 'yes' would be to pack in a lot of assumptions about fitness and susceptibility to the flu.

[kerewin21 2]

My husband is from Jamaica....pretty sure I've been to a poor country as you are describing and seen it all.

I'm assuming you're not a health care professional. Have you worked in a hospital for the poor in Jamaica? In a rural area? I haven't been to Jamaica myself, but the data show it's in better shape than many places. In the whole country in 2006, there were no cases of polio, diptheria, measles, or rubella. There was one case of pertussis and 2 cases of mumps. Compare that to, say, Niger, which had 63,000 cases of measles reported in 2004 (fortunately decreased in '05 and '06).

If you had read my last post, you would see I specifically mentioned the need for the very young, the infirm and the elderly to receive them.

But what you don't understand is that it's not just the very young, infirm, and elderly that need to be vaccinated. It's EVERYONE. Because the vaccines aren't 100% effective in everyone. So even if you vaccinated every young and old person, healthy people would *still* need to be vaccinated because if they get the disease they will give it to the people who are elderly or young, and since the vaccines aren't 100% effective some of those elderly or young will get sick (not to mention that some people are too sick to get certain vaccines, so some people aren't vaccinated at all). So in order for us all to be safe, we all have to be vaccinated.

I'm not trying to give you a hard time, but I've seen some terrible stuff as a doctor working in developing countries and I am *so* grateful that people in this country and other countries with better access to care don't have to go through what families go through elsewhere, and that we have a public health system that ensures that we all stay safe.

[Jenn! 918]

Hey, no one answered my egg question.

[kerewin21 2]

Hey, no one answered my egg question.

Sorry I got distracted by my public health blinder insistence that everyone should be vaccinated for everything.

OK dear:

Generally it wouldn't be recommended to get a flu shot if you're allergic to eggs. You would recommend good hand hygiene and that all close contacts be vaccinated if the individual is at high risk if s/he were to get the flu.

You can also test someone with a skin test to make sure they actually are allergic to eggs. If they're allergic, they can undergo a series of shots to desensitize them to eggs and then get the shot. They have also done a trial of giving part of the shot (a small dose first) and then another dose later, which often works.

Another option is to have one of the flu treatments on hand to take immediately if you're exposed to anyone with the flu.

In other words, talk to your doctor.

[kerewin21 2]

All that being said, and I guess I said a lot, I am all for everyone's right to refuse to get vaccinated. It's not right to force someone to be vaccinated if they choose not to be, after having the risks and benefits explained.

[*JG* 2]

My husband is from Jamaica....pretty sure I've been to a poor country as you are describing and seen it all.

I'm assuming you're not a health care professional. Have you worked in a hospital for the poor in Jamaica? In a rural area? I haven't been to Jamaica myself, but the data show it's in better shape than many places. In the whole country in 2006, there were no cases of polio, diptheria, measles, or rubella. There was one case of pertussis and 2 cases of mumps. Compare that to, say, Niger, which had 63,000 cases of measles reported in 2004 (fortunately decreased in '05 and '06).

If you had read my last post, you would see I specifically mentioned the need for the very young, the infirm and the elderly to receive them.

But what you don't understand is that it's not just the very young, infirm, and elderly that need to be vaccinated. It's EVERYONE. Because the vaccines aren't 100% effective in everyone. So even if you vaccinated every young and old person, healthy people would *still* need to be vaccinated because if they get the disease they will give it to the people who are elderly or young, and since the vaccines aren't 100% effective some of those elderly or young will get sick (not to mention that some people are too sick to get certain vaccines, so some people aren't vaccinated at all). So in order for us all to be safe, we all have to be vaccinated.

I'm not trying to give you a hard time, but I've seen some terrible stuff as a doctor working in developing countries and I am *so* grateful that people in this country and other countries with better access to care don't have to go through what families go through elsewhere, and that we have a public health system that ensures that we all stay safe.

What is your stand on reports that toxaemia is responsible for most of the deaths in 3rd world countries and vaccines have proven to be ineffective at preventing childhood infection?

[kerewin21 2]

What is your stand on reports that toxaemia is responsible for most of the deaths in 3rd world countries and vaccines have proven to be ineffective at preventing childhood infection?

Where are you getting this information from?

Of course I disagree with that. Every reputable medical society and public health association strongly recommends vaccinations for all children. If vaccines are ineffective, why has polio gone from a worldwide scourge to almost non-existent since the inception of the Salk vaccine?

I'm sure you could find some medical professionals here or there who are against immunization, but as I said, all the professional societies recommend it. Of course I have more of a public health perspective than some other physicians might. There's always a bit of a tug-of-war there. If we give all the kids with ear infections antibiotics, then we'll have more antibiotic resistance and a bunch of kids will have side effects; but nobody wants their patient to be that one kid in 10,000 who actually really needed antibiotics.

And while I disagree with you about the immunizations, I do agree that antibiotics are WAY overprescribed.

[HAL 9000 96]

I agree with antibiotics being completely unnecessary in many cases... but... some vaccines are very convenient.

Influenza has as many strains as you can shake a stick at and is completely competent to mutate from year to year. Hence vaccines are developed and redeveloped from year to year.

[Jenn! 918]

Hey, no one answered my egg question.

Sorry I got distracted by my public health blinder insistence that everyone should be vaccinated for everything.

OK dear:

Generally it wouldn't be recommended to get a flu shot if you're allergic to eggs. You would recommend good hand hygiene and that all close contacts be vaccinated if the individual is at high risk if s/he were to get the flu.

You can also test someone with a skin test to make sure they actually are allergic to eggs. If they're allergic, they can undergo a series of shots to desensitize them to eggs and then get the shot. They have also done a trial of giving part of the shot (a small dose first) and then another dose later, which often works.

Another option is to have one of the flu treatments on hand to take immediately if you're exposed to anyone with the flu.

In other words, talk to your doctor.

Thanks, Doc.

I was basically trying to see if this would be a way to get out of the "requirement", claiming that you had an allergy to eggs. Wonder if they'd go so far as to test you in order to confirm.

[*JG* 2]

I agree with antibiotics being completely unnecessary in many cases... but... some vaccines are very convenient.

Influenza has as many strains as you can shake a stick at and is completely competent to mutate from year to year. Hence vaccines are developed and redeveloped from year to year.

Okay, then....do you think we cause these strains to mutate because we are vaccinating against them year to year?

[HAL 9000 96]

Hey, no one answered my egg question.

Sorry I got distracted by my public health blinder insistence that everyone should be vaccinated for everything.

OK dear:

Generally it wouldn't be recommended to get a flu shot if you're allergic to eggs. You would recommend good hand hygiene and that all close contacts be vaccinated if the individual is at high risk if s/he were to get the flu.

You can also test someone with a skin test to make sure they actually are allergic to eggs. If they're allergic, they can undergo a series of shots to desensitize them to eggs and then get the shot. They have also done a trial of giving part of the shot (a small dose first) and then another dose later, which often works.

Another option is to have one of the flu treatments on hand to take immediately if you're exposed to anyone with the flu.

In other words, talk to your doctor.

Thanks, Doc.

I was basically trying to see if this would be a way to get out of the "requirement", claiming that you had an allergy to eggs. Wonder if they'd go so far as to test you in order to confirm.

I think an allergy is as good an excuse as any

[*JG* 2]

All that being said, and I guess I said a lot, I am all for everyone's right to refuse to get vaccinated. It's not right to force someone to be vaccinated if they choose not to be, after having the risks and benefits explained.

I really do believe in getting most immunizations. I also believe in questioning just about everything.

Edited December 14, 2007 by Jomo's girl

[*JG* 2]

What is your stand on reports that toxaemia is responsible for most of the deaths in 3rd world countries and vaccines have proven to be ineffective at preventing childhood infection?

Where are you getting this information from?

Of course I disagree with that. Every reputable medical society and public health association strongly recommends vaccinations for all children. If vaccines are ineffective, why has polio gone from a worldwide scourge to almost non-existent since the inception of the Salk vaccine?

I'm sure you could find some medical professionals here or there who are against immunization, but as I said, all the professional societies recommend it. Of course I have more of a public health perspective than some other physicians might. There's always a bit of a tug-of-war there. If we give all the kids with ear infections antibiotics, then we'll have more antibiotic resistance and a bunch of kids will have side effects; but nobody wants their patient to be that one kid in 10,000 who actually really needed antibiotics.

And while I disagree with you about the immunizations, I do agree that antibiotics are WAY overprescribed.

I read just about anything and everything I can get my hands on. Some of it I find more interesting then others.

What do you think of the theory that autism is so prevelent because of vaccines?

And, I've actually read some research that says the world-wide plagues such as polio are cyclical and one belief is that it was on the downslide naturally when that vaccine was introduced. Kind of supports Troll's natural selection theory.

Not saying I believe all this information. Just read it.

[*JG* 2]

I did want to say it was nice to debate and learn some things today. Some days I get bored and tired of reading the same old same old.