Supporting yourself w/o working...

[rebeccajo 14]

pushbrk did. And I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that anyone is saying 'don't plan!'

Ahh right, I missed that bit....my apols. Because you were replying to me, I thought you were saying I implied that.

I get the impression that many are anti-planning to the extent of waiting until there's a little more financial stability. I got that impression from many of the responses here. Yours included, I must say.

Am I reading them wrong?

Anti-planning?

Um, not the way I read it.

I'm saying you can feather your nest all you like but if the fox decides to get in the henhouse, you can't stop that.

You know, there is such a thing as being too cautious. Ultra-planners are the ones who always freak out the most whenever there's a financial crisis in a marriage. At least that's been my observation of my friends and colleagues.

Edited December 14, 2007 by rebeccajo

[Caladan 19]

Yes. You are reading me wrong, or at least I should clarify that I think financial stability is important and that having a plan for where the money is coming from for the first six months is necessary. (Beyond that and I think there's too many variables to plan.)

But I do think that part of that plan could be a combination of any number of things, and doesn't necessarily imply an upper middle class standard of living. I don't think it's a requirement to have a down payment on a house or two new cars.

So if he can sock away some money, she can find an inexpensive apartment, she can get a second job, and their income is greater than expenses, I think that's fine, even if things are tight in the discretionary spending department for a little while. I think it's very important to recognize that the initial costs from the marriage-related expenses, to the green card, to getting someone set up with a driver's license & health insurance, any number of other things that require fees, plus furniture and moving costs are much higher than expected. Knowing what you're getting into is important.

But I don't see that as out of reach for a college student. If you can manage your bills and remain out of debt, everything else is a bonus. People do this. American couples get married as law students or while in medical school or in graduate school or just after graduating, and they don't jump straight into the white-picket fence life, but they're together and they work towards it.

[Ephesia 0]

I am the non-USC spouse. I managed with some savings that I brought with me when I moved to the US 2½ years ago. It wasn't much, but it was enough to get by for 6 months while my USC husband worked full-time. He took care of the big bills while I took care of groceries and stuff. Family and friends helped out a bit when he lost his job after his health took a turn for the worse (he had Crohn's disease). The timing of it all was amazing, to say the least. I had started working for several months when he had to have surgery and couldn't work for a few months after that.

To the OP, I wish you all the best. It can be quite daunting.

[pushbrk 12,898]

And I'm not advocating jumping into marriage while unemployed or without a plan, but the OP asked for advice on how to make a plan and was pretty much told 'wait until you're financially secure, like on your second or third spouse.'

No one said anything about a 2nd or 3rd spouse. If you cut that out of what you said, the rest is very sage advice. Get a full time job, save your money...possibly wait til you're done with uni......WHY are these considered bad things? No, it's not pleasant, and instant gratification is oh so much better...but at the end of the day, if the OP can't afford to support her fiance, and the fiance isn't 'tons o bucks' where it's not an issue...I can't see any happy happy way around this...short of living off others.

You're putting words in ppl's mouths, Caladan....and when did advocating saving, getting a higher paying job, waiting, and planning become bad things?

PS - the way I read the op was 'how did the foreign fiance support him/herself?' Because the OP said she couldn't support him. That's a roadblock, for sure...and sadly not one that 'love' can fix. Cos if you have the easy answer to 'how do you live in another country with no money, no job, and no one to support you?'....you need to write a book and sell it! It'll be a bestseller, for sure

I was being a bit hyperbolic (as I figured was obvious from context), but seriously, people here are acting like the OP is horribly irresponsible for asking how to plan. Or for getting engaged without being upper middle class first. Lots of people manage being right at poverty level, by taking a second job, or by saving like crazy people to tide them through a few months. Some people, like me, did it while in school. Would we be more financially secure if we waited the seven years or so it will likely take me to get tenure? Sure. Did we make it just fine now? Yup, and I don't think I was irresponsible because we don't own our home first. Some people move in with family. Not ideal, and not what I'd want but there are plenty of relationships that I don't think are ideal that other people manage to make work.

I'm not saying 'oh love will feed you' but you know, she actually got helpful answers on her other thread. Like considering a CR-1, which takes longer, but can allow him to find a job here right away. And rough estimates of what she should budget.

right....taking another job and saving like crazy....I think I said something similar.

It's great to be young and in love, and it's great to do it all whilst in college....hell, I did that before too so I know how it feels. But couple that with all the stress of a marriage while in college, and then add the gov't ####### with AOS, and it's obviously something not to be ignored or answered with 'sell stuff on ebay' and 'disconnect your internet'. I'm sorry if you don't like that....that's the way I feel. I've expressed it in a respectful manner, as have others here....yet it's being mocked as 'preachy' and whatnot all because others disagree. The absolute snarkiness that some are dishing out here is beyond the pale, imo, and quite unnecessary.

To clarify: OP NEVER asked for help with a 'plan'. OP asked how others dealt with the issue. She hasn't filed yet, and imo, everyone's opinion here is one that should be given attention. That's why there's more than one flavor ice cream....we all have different tastes. It's not preachy to say 'hey, put a plan in place because this is going to be hard'. I personally wouldn't have peace of mind if D came over and we had no money, he didn't work, I had a v limited income that couldn't support us both, etc. Many non-USCs come over and have hard adjustment periods. How much harder is an adjustment when you add severe money issues ontop of that?

It's all well and good to be 'yay for love!' but take love to the store and try to buy food with it. That's not being snobbish, or money hungry...that's being realistic. People can ignore that and do whatever they want, but that doesn't make what I say any less true.

I interpreted 'how did you guys deal with it?' as 'I need help with a plan and some idea of the costs and risks' because otherwise, why would anyone who is preparing to file ask the question?

And no one is saying, least of all me, 'yay for love!' We used all of the time waiting on the visa to save money; I took an extra teaching assignment; and I've cautioned that your burn rate of cash is going to be higher then you expect. I'm not sure if you think you're disagreeing with me.

I just don't expect that she's going to call off her engagement because some people on the internet don't think she's ready to file for a visa and I was dismayed by pushbrk's response.

I didn't suggest for a moment that the OP or the male of the couple call off their engagement.. I tried to point out that it's far better to have a plan first. They put the cart before the horse. Abandoning the journey is certainly one option and if it's the only option that comes to mind, then perhaps it's the best one. What I thought might come to mind is to "work" on getting the horse before the cart as quickly as possible because the I-134 is coming down the track. Marrying poor is what I did three times, at least by most standards others would apply and certainly the first time at age 22 and 18 but "working" was part of the "plan" before I could even consider it. If I'd been in school, then student loans would probably have been part of the plan.

"It" didn't work out. "We" worked it out.

[Caladan 19]

But they are planning! That's what I don't get. It makes no sense to say Hrmph, hrmph, might have gotten engaged too early there sonny! to a person who is asking how people managed so she can plan this before she files! It's like people just saw that she was a university student, ignored the fact that she was asking how to plan, and went straight on to berating her for not planning.

[MrsAmera 41]

I'm too not saying don't plan I just want the OP to know that you can do it. Yea maybe we could have waited but the money we spent for me to visit him was also part of the picture. I mean for those of you who live close enough to visit often or can split the traveling great. For those of us who really have a long way to travel or to spend a long time apart it's not so great. It would cost me almost $2000 a visit minimum to see my fiance. In the long run even if we had waited 2 or 3 years at one visit a year it would have cost us $6000 minimum. I hate to say it but taking care of the bills for 6 months while he wasn't working didn't come close to that figure. Another consideration.

[Fandango 1,439]

Anti-planning?

Um, not the way I read it.

I'm saying you can feather your nest all you like but if the fox decides to get in the henhouse, you can't stop that.

You know, there is such a thing as being too cautious. Ultra-planners are the ones who always freak out the most whenever there's a financial crisis in a marriage. At least that's been my observation of my friends and colleagues.

I don't fully understand your farmhouse metaphor, but lemme give it a go. No you can't stop the fox, but if your nest is adequately feathered, it won't wreak as much havoc, will it?

There might be a thing as being 'too cautious'. But for the sake of discussion, are you saying advocating waiting til one is more financially stable is being too cautious? I posted about the importance of having some financial backing behind you, and you responded with your 'Amen to the church of self importance' barb. I'm not telling anyone how to live his/her life. The OP asked how we each dealt with it, and I answered. You don't have to like it, but why you're trying to battle me on my own opinion seems curious. We've had this discussion previously, even in pvt when we were friends. I know you didn't agree with me then, and you don't agree with me now...and that's ok for me. But just like your opinion is the best for you, mine is the best for me. Why are you seemingly getting offended or trying to 'disprove' something as subjective as someone else's opinion?

I honestly don't see what is so controversial about anything I've said.

Yes. You are reading me wrong, or at least I should clarify that I think financial stability is important and that having a plan for where the money is coming from for the first six months is necessary. (Beyond that and I think there's too many variables to plan.)

But I do think that part of that plan could be a combination of any number of things, and doesn't necessarily imply an upper middle class standard of living. I don't think it's a requirement to have a down payment on a house or two new cars.

So if he can sock away some money, she can find an inexpensive apartment, she can get a second job, and their income is greater than expenses, I think that's fine, even if things are tight in the discretionary spending department for a little while. I think it's very important to recognize that the initial costs from the marriage-related expenses, to the green card, to getting someone set up with a driver's license & health insurance, any number of other things that require fees, plus furniture and moving costs are much higher than expected. Knowing what you're getting into is important.

But I don't see that as out of reach for a college student. If you can manage your bills and remain out of debt, everything else is a bonus. People do this. American couples get married as law students or while in medical school or in graduate school or just after graduating, and they don't jump straight into the white-picket fence life, but they're together and they work towards it.

I didn't advocate planning to the point of a middle class lifestyle. What I did say is that it's poss for a college student to get a full time job while still in college. It's what I did, so I know it's possible. The topic of this thread 'how do you support yourself without working?' is answered by me as 'short of getting help from someone, you can't.' It's not the happy happy joy joy answer that I'd love to give, but it's the one I feel is true.

I see all sorts of heartbreaking stories on here where a marriage/relationship crashes due to the stress of the aftereffects of coming here....the 'out of status' pd while waiting for AOS/EAD/AP, the stress of the foreign SO having a hard adjustment acclimating to a new environment, the loss some of them feel without what they perceive as their identity...a stable footing, a way to earn a steady income, without their fams, comforts of home, being in foreign environments, etc. God, there's so much to deal with. Then add to the stress of no income to support, and I personally think it's got greater potential for disaster. Can limited income college kids get married and deal with the stress of school vs married life, and being cash poor? Sure. Can a USC and a nonUSC get married and deal with adjustment issues? Sure. Can a limited income college kid get married and deal with the stress of school vs married life, and being cash poor while one is a nonUSC who might have adjustment issues while being limited by the govt as to what he can or cannot do? i suppose it's possible with the right amount of help, but if let's say a year of saving can somewhat mitigate that problem, why is that somehow a bad thing? Why is advocating that seen as 'judging' with the hyperbole of talk of picket fences, middle class lifestyles, and 2 and 3 husbands???

I have a meeting. BBL

[Fandango 1,439]

But they are planning! That's what I don't get. It makes no sense to say Hrmph, hrmph, might have gotten engaged too early there sonny! to a person who is asking how people managed so she can plan this before she files! It's like people just saw that she was a university student, ignored the fact that she was asking how to plan, and went straight on to berating her for not planning.

That's an issue for someone else as I never said anything about getting engaged too soon. I said get a job, save, etc...and the responses have been 'judgmental' 'self-important' 'extensively planned' etc...The 'planning' debate came in response to that, it's not said in reference to the OP and whether or not she is plannaing correctly.

Flow of conversation and all that jazz..

Edited December 14, 2007 by LisaD

[rebeccajo 14]

There might be a thing as being 'too cautious'. But for the sake of discussion, are you saying advocating waiting til one is more financially stable is being too cautious? I posted about the importance of having some financial backing behind you, and you responded with your 'Amen to the church of self importance' barb. I'm not telling anyone how to live his/her life. The OP asked how we each dealt with it, and I answered. You don't have to like it, but why you're trying to battle me on my own opinion seems curious. We've had this discussion previously, even in pvt when we were friends. I know you didn't agree with me then, and you don't agree with me now...and that's ok for me. But just like your opinion is the best for you, mine is the best for me. Why are you seemingly getting offended or trying to 'disprove' something as subjective as someone else's opinion?

I honestly don't see what is so controversial about anything I've said.

I'm not battling you on your opinion. I just get tired of hearing - ad nauseum - how you put so much time and care and thought and planning and blah blah blah into D's immigration. It's like everybody else is some sort of loser or moron.

You do things your way and other people do things theirs. That's really patently hard for you to accept or else you wouldn't be on here making all sorts of observations about their relationships and they way they get to them. Some people want to be together right away - you didn't mind waiting a couple of years without visits. So what?

[Fandango 1,439]

There might be a thing as being 'too cautious'. But for the sake of discussion, are you saying advocating waiting til one is more financially stable is being too cautious? I posted about the importance of having some financial backing behind you, and you responded with your 'Amen to the church of self importance' barb. I'm not telling anyone how to live his/her life. The OP asked how we each dealt with it, and I answered. You don't have to like it, but why you're trying to battle me on my own opinion seems curious. We've had this discussion previously, even in pvt when we were friends. I know you didn't agree with me then, and you don't agree with me now...and that's ok for me. But just like your opinion is the best for you, mine is the best for me. Why are you seemingly getting offended or trying to 'disprove' something as subjective as someone else's opinion?

I honestly don't see what is so controversial about anything I've said.

I'm not battling you on your opinion. I just get tired of hearing - ad nauseum - how you put so much time and care and thought and planning and blah blah blah into D's immigration. It's like everybody else is some sort of loser or moron.

You do things your way and other people do things theirs. That's really patently hard for you to accept or else you wouldn't be on here making all sorts of observations about their relationships and they way they get to them. Some people want to be together right away - you didn't mind waiting a couple of years without visits. So what?

Exactly, I do things one way and others do things other ways. If you understood that and truly believed it, you wouldn't be bickering with me now....OR making snide comments about my relationship. Is it 'so patently hard' for you to accept? I go on 'ad nasuem' seemingly explaining my choice because of people like you who feel the need to tell me how 'self-important' I am for doing so. Our wait encompassed many things...not all of which I disclose here on VJ. So pls try not to make the error of thinking you fully know my situation. Or to even have the audacity to think that 'I didn't mind waiting.' Let's be clear once and for all: I very much minded waiting. But you may not know that cos I don't go on about it here. I accept what I cannot change and try to make the best of a bad situation.

You may think you know me, but you really do not.

I NEVER said or implied that 'everybody else is some sort of loser or moron.'....that's YOUR very incorrect inference into what I said. Please stop projecting that on me, as the onus for that is yours alone.

So if it's not 'patently hard' for YOU to accept that others choose other means of attacking a situation, then I trust I won't be having this discussion with you anymore. Because I am quite embarrassed for you that my choices seem to personally offend you as they appear to be. My views on this are mine and based on how they affect my life....they are not 'let me try to make RJ think I'm calling her a loser'. Every thread we are in together does NOT need to degenerate into you showing me how clearly you dislike me. I get it! I also don't care. But I am getting tired fighting with you on this merry go round, so if you REALLY feel the need to discuss my choices with me and tell me how rude they are to everyone else, feel free to pm, or just let it go. Your bias is showing.

Thank you!

NOW I must go...meeting was at 12:30 not 12!

[Caladan 19]

Anti-planning?

Um, not the way I read it.

I'm saying you can feather your nest all you like but if the fox decides to get in the henhouse, you can't stop that.

You know, there is such a thing as being too cautious. Ultra-planners are the ones who always freak out the most whenever there's a financial crisis in a marriage. At least that's been my observation of my friends and colleagues.

I don't fully understand your farmhouse metaphor, but lemme give it a go. No you can't stop the fox, but if your nest is adequately feathered, it won't wreak as much havoc, will it?

There might be a thing as being 'too cautious'. But for the sake of discussion, are you saying advocating waiting til one is more financially stable is being too cautious? I posted about the importance of having some financial backing behind you, and you responded with your 'Amen to the church of self importance' barb. I'm not telling anyone how to live his/her life. The OP asked how we each dealt with it, and I answered. You don't have to like it, but why you're trying to battle me on my own opinion seems curious. We've had this discussion previously, even in pvt when we were friends. I know you didn't agree with me then, and you don't agree with me now...and that's ok for me. But just like your opinion is the best for you, mine is the best for me. Why are you seemingly getting offended or trying to 'disprove' something as subjective as someone else's opinion?

I honestly don't see what is so controversial about anything I've said.

Yes. You are reading me wrong, or at least I should clarify that I think financial stability is important and that having a plan for where the money is coming from for the first six months is necessary. (Beyond that and I think there's too many variables to plan.)

But I do think that part of that plan could be a combination of any number of things, and doesn't necessarily imply an upper middle class standard of living. I don't think it's a requirement to have a down payment on a house or two new cars.

So if he can sock away some money, she can find an inexpensive apartment, she can get a second job, and their income is greater than expenses, I think that's fine, even if things are tight in the discretionary spending department for a little while. I think it's very important to recognize that the initial costs from the marriage-related expenses, to the green card, to getting someone set up with a driver's license & health insurance, any number of other things that require fees, plus furniture and moving costs are much higher than expected. Knowing what you're getting into is important.

But I don't see that as out of reach for a college student. If you can manage your bills and remain out of debt, everything else is a bonus. People do this. American couples get married as law students or while in medical school or in graduate school or just after graduating, and they don't jump straight into the white-picket fence life, but they're together and they work towards it.

I didn't advocate planning to the point of a middle class lifestyle. What I did say is that it's poss for a college student to get a full time job while still in college. It's what I did, so I know it's possible. The topic of this thread 'how do you support yourself without working?' is answered by me as 'short of getting help from someone, you can't.' It's not the happy happy joy joy answer that I'd love to give, but it's the one I feel is true.

I see all sorts of heartbreaking stories on here where a marriage/relationship crashes due to the stress of the aftereffects of coming here....the 'out of status' pd while waiting for AOS/EAD/AP, the stress of the foreign SO having a hard adjustment acclimating to a new environment, the loss some of them feel without what they perceive as their identity...a stable footing, a way to earn a steady income, without their fams, comforts of home, being in foreign environments, etc. God, there's so much to deal with. Then add to the stress of no income to support, and I personally think it's got greater potential for disaster. Can limited income college kids get married and deal with the stress of school vs married life, and being cash poor? Sure. Can a USC and a nonUSC get married and deal with adjustment issues? Sure. Can a limited income college kid get married and deal with the stress of school vs married life, and being cash poor while one is a nonUSC who might have adjustment issues while being limited by the govt as to what he can or cannot do? i suppose it's possible with the right amount of help, but if let's say a year of saving can somewhat mitigate that problem, why is that somehow a bad thing? Why is advocating that seen as 'judging' with the hyperbole of talk of picket fences, middle class lifestyles, and 2 and 3 husbands???

I have a meeting. BBL

Why is suggesting that it's possible to do being taken as support of believing that love will pay the bills? Who is saying that saving is a bad thing? (I mean, if we're talking hyperbole...) No one! I honestly don't see myself disagreeing with you here, and I see the title as 'supporting yourself w/o [THE FOREIGN PARTNER] working', not 'how can I get a free ride.' So I'm left to wonder whether I'm typing in Swahili, or that everyone else thinks getting married without being wealthy is a mistake.

The only reason I think there is maybe a disagreement is that I say something like 'save up for expenses' or 'be aware of the real costs' and I get posts saying how I'm talking about paying bills with love and being so irrational. Okay, so what are we disagreeing about, if not the amount of money you expect is reasonable?

[rebeccajo 14]

Lisa, try not to embarrass yourself by claiming how embarrassed you are for ME. That's southern female bull$hit for "I can argue faster than you" and you're really wasting your skills in that regard on another old pro.

And I'd suggest you take your own advice about not knowing the full situation of peoples relationships. Makes you kind of touchy when the shoe is on the other foot, doesn't it?

[pushbrk 12,898]

Why is suggesting that it's possible to do being taken as support of believing that love will pay the bills? Who is saying that saving is a bad thing? (I mean, if we're talking hyperbole...) No one! I honestly don't see myself disagreeing with you here, and I see the title as 'supporting yourself w/o [THE FOREIGN PARTNER] working', not 'how can I get a free ride.' So I'm left to wonder whether I'm typing in Swahili, or that everyone else thinks getting married without being wealthy is a mistake.

The only reason I think there is maybe a disagreement is that I say something like 'save up for expenses' or 'be aware of the real costs' and I get posts saying how I'm talking about paying bills with love and being so irrational. Okay, so what are we disagreeing about, if not the amount of money you expect is reasonable?

The answer is the same as if one asked, why does "have a plan" become "middle class status". I see multiple dynamics degrading the discussion here. First and foremost seems to be some are deciding that since they don't like the person expressing the opinion, they interpret whatever is written in the most extreme opposite to their own opinion. Hence, "plan" becomes "rich" or "it can work" becomes "love pays the bills". The result is a lot of overblown arguments when little actual disagreement exists on the subject at hand. Far more words have been written in this thread to argue about little if anything to do with the topic.

Here's a "plan" for you.

The couple puts their heads together and adds up the anticipated expenses of filing, visa fees, travel, changes in lodging if needed, AOS expenses and any additional living expense for the 120 to 180 days the intending immigrant won't be working. Then they examine their current US living expenses, combined assets and income, compare it to the anticipated expenses. Any shortfalls are then calculated. The next step is to discuss what combination of additional work, savings, selling of assets, depletion of savings, family support or borrowing, will be needed to meet their financial needs.

That example of planning is purely practical, can be done before or after filing a petition, and features neither achieving middle class status or love paying the bills. The men in my life have taken the lead in this planning and have done so before making wedding plans. Some of the boys have not been so wise. No need to read anything else into that. I'm just stating my observations.

What I really think would be good, is to confine the responses to the topic of the thread. Perhaps that's too much to ask.

[Fandango 1,439]

Lisa, try not to embarrass yourself by claiming how embarrassed you are for ME. That's southern female bull$hit for "I can argue faster than you" and you're really wasting your skills in that regard on another old pro.

And I'd suggest you take your own advice about not knowing the full situation of peoples relationships. Makes you kind of touchy when the shoe is on the other foot, doesn't it?

Becca, please knock it off. I am not trying to argue with you here. I'm not making any personal judgments towards anyone's particular situation...'...I don't need to know the 'full situation of people's relationshipsa question was asked, and I answered it. If I seem touchy to you, it's because this constant bickering with you has gotten oh so old. You've questioned aspects of my relationship: I answered them honestly and fully....how that's touchy is anyone's guess.

I can't see how you can logically lecture me about not knowing the full situation of ppl's relationships, yet you judge mine with ease, but whatever.

And btw...I'm from NY...not that it matters to the conversation, but I'm so far from southern it's not even funny. One o my fave songs is 'Native New Yorker' by Oddessy

[LaL 418]

back on topic please.