Father kills 16 year old Canadian girl

[one...two...tree 2,762]

Wow ... i wonder what religion we can blame for Robert Pickton's behaviour..

Well, it involved pigs, so I'd say it wasn't Judaism or Islam.

Really it's quite different. There is OBVIOUSLY a religious motivation to this girl's murder.

I'd say cultural more than religious; honor killings don't always follow Islam. In some areas of the ME, it would apply to Christians as well as pre-Christian/Islam tribes. It's been influenced by religion, and some may attribute their own actions to it, but it's a complicated picture.

Indeed. I love that VJ taught me that. The history of honor killings may be the only thing I ever actually learned here. Still, he killed his daughter over wearing the hijab, so the shame she brought on her family was religion-related.

It may be a twisted understanding of religious law, but I've never read any Muslim scholar state that Quran endorses the killing of people...period. There are exremists who can try to make that argument, but as somebody said in that thread on imagining no religion, killing in the name of religion is just an excuse.

The Bible doesn't say anything about stem-cell research or abortion, but that hasn't stopped people from using it to protest those things. I still don't understand what you mean by "killing in the name of religion is just an excuse." Are you saying that people who kill in the name of religion just want to kill and are looking for a reason to do so?

Yes.

Steven, I'm sorry, but that's ridiculous. There would never be so many suicide bombers. People are not naturally homicidal. I can't even believe you would try to make that argument fly.

(sorry for all the quotes retained here)

Yes, I think there is something psychological about anyone giving power of their intellect and will over to a belief system - whether it's cultural or religious, especially when common sense, reason, and rationale say otherwise. Although I understand the concept of surrendering one's will to God, one must use discernment with understanding what that means. I would hope that all religious scholars would point that out - religion is an imperfect vessel that should be approached with great caution and understanding. It is a finite understanding of the infinite, and with that creates great uncertainty and mystery. That uncertainty and mystery, IMO, brings forth in some the need for certainty and clarity, so they surrender their will and intellect to an imperfect understanding of the infinite.

Sorry to get philosophical, but I think there is a psychosis that takes place, when one betrays their intellect and will, by following their understanding of a belief system that so sharply contradicts their very being. Without our intellect, what are we?

[AnewKINDofFEELIN 0]

Wow ... i wonder what religion we can blame for Robert Pickton's behaviour..

Well, it involved pigs, so I'd say it wasn't Judaism or Islam.

Really it's quite different. There is OBVIOUSLY a religious motivation to this girl's murder.

I'd say cultural more than religious; honor killings don't always follow Islam. In some areas of the ME, it would apply to Christians as well as pre-Christian/Islam tribes. It's been influenced by religion, and some may attribute their own actions to it, but it's a complicated picture.

Actually, honor killings are very prevalent in Hindi culture as well, but this is about her wearing a hijab, hence Islam.

[mawilson 2,133]

Right, but if your advice (say) were 'Don't approve this Muslim family from Indonesia, because they practice honor killings,' that would be bad advice.

Wait, I thought you said that Indonesian Muslims didn't practice honor killings?

I'm not saying "deny all petitions from Muslims", but at least our immigration

forms should include questions like "have you or any member of your family

ever been involved in honor killings".

That way, if they answer 'no' and later get caught doing that ####, not only

do they get to go to jail, they also get to go home -- permanently -- even they

are US citizens! (Citizenship can be revoked if they are found to have lied on

immigration forms.)

As to the rest of it, cultural sensitivity my ###. This isn't about dietary restrictions or wanting time to pray. If you're in the U.S. and your murder your daughter, you get to go to jail. If you mutilate her, same thing. If you beat your wife, hey, see the pattern? No excuse based on what you think God is telling you.

Agreed.

[no name 1]

My whole point was that it doesn't matter what the Quran says. On another note, I don't think he killed his daughter out of religious motivation -- that was a cultural practice. It was over something religious, though (the hijab).

...and the question is, how do we end barbaric cultural practices while also embracing cultural diversity? It seems like the first generation immigrants are the ones who are most resistant to change.

Where does it say he is first generation?

[mawilson 2,133]

What's "barbaric" to one culture may not be to another. I hate to play that card, but it's true. What one group does as part of their normal routine (i.e. cultural norms) may end up offending and seeming quite barbaric to a neighboring group, if their cultural norms end up clashing.

Are you insane?

[DeadPoolX 9]

What's "barbaric" to one culture may not be to another. I hate to play that card, but it's true. What one group does as part of their normal routine (i.e. cultural norms) may end up offending and seeming quite barbaric to a neighboring group, if their cultural norms end up clashing.

Are you insane?

Not at all. If the traditional Middle-Eastern culture picture such concepts as "honor killings" as barbaric, do you honestly think they'd still practice them? Probably not. The fact that we consider it a terrible thing means very little to them.

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

Where does it say he is first generation?

It doesn't but the father is 57, so he was probably born around 1950. There wasn't a lot of immigration to Canada from the ME or South Asia in 1950. So it's a good guess that he wasn't born in Canada.

That said, the 26 year old brother very well may be.

[Fandango 1,439]

What's "barbaric" to one culture may not be to another. I hate to play that card, but it's true. What one group does as part of their normal routine (i.e. cultural norms) may end up offending and seeming quite barbaric to a neighboring group, if their cultural norms end up clashing.

Are you insane?

heh......

[mawilson 2,133]

What's "barbaric" to one culture may not be to another. I hate to play that card, but it's true. What one group does as part of their normal routine (i.e. cultural norms) may end up offending and seeming quite barbaric to a neighboring group, if their cultural norms end up clashing.

Are you insane?

Not at all. If the traditional Middle-Eastern culture picture such concepts as "honor killings" as barbaric, do you honestly think they'd still practice them? Probably not. The fact that we consider it a terrible thing means very little to them.

Ok, but who gives a ####### what they think and do in their ####### countries?

I thought you were referring to the fact that the US or Canada do not "officially"

have one "dominant" culture that defines what's acceptable.

[Fandango 1,439]

What's "barbaric" to one culture may not be to another. I hate to play that card, but it's true. What one group does as part of their normal routine (i.e. cultural norms) may end up offending and seeming quite barbaric to a neighboring group, if their cultural norms end up clashing.

Are you insane?

Not at all. If the traditional Middle-Eastern culture picture such concepts as "honor killings" as barbaric, do you honestly think they'd still practice them? Probably not. The fact that we consider it a terrible thing means very little to them.

*blink*

[no name 1]

Not at all. If the traditional Middle-Eastern culture picture such concepts as "honor killings" as barbaric, do you honestly think they'd still practice them? Probably not. The fact that we consider it a terrible thing means very little to them.

Let's ask the women of those countries if they think it's barbaric........

[mawilson 2,133]

Not at all. If the traditional Middle-Eastern culture picture such concepts as "honor killings" as barbaric, do you honestly think they'd still practice them? Probably not. The fact that we consider it a terrible thing means very little to them.

Let's ask the women of those countries if they think it's barbaric........

Good point, but the women of those countries are so f#cking meek and repressed,

they'll probably tell you it's all cool.

[no name 1]

Not at all. If the traditional Middle-Eastern culture picture such concepts as "honor killings" as barbaric, do you honestly think they'd still practice them? Probably not. The fact that we consider it a terrible thing means very little to them.

Let's ask the women of those countries if they think it's barbaric........

Good point, but the women of those countries are so f#cking meek and repressed,

they'll probably tell you it's all cool.

sure, I meant if it was completely anonymous.

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

Not at all. If the traditional Middle-Eastern culture picture such concepts as "honor killings" as barbaric, do you honestly think they'd still practice them? Probably not. The fact that we consider it a terrible thing means very little to them.

Let's ask the women of those countries if they think it's barbaric........

The above table shows that there is no great difference in the opinions of men and women towards the issue of killing on the basis of ‘honor’. Nevertheless, the opinion exists in 21.2% of the population who believe that the killing on the basis of family honor is a social responsibility in order to wipe out the disgrace. The percentage of females who accept the killing of women on the basis of family honor is less that that of males (16.3 to 25.9).

The data is old (2001). Source is http://www.phrmg.org/monitor2002/Aug2002-3.htm

[DeadPoolX 9]

What's "barbaric" to one culture may not be to another. I hate to play that card, but it's true. What one group does as part of their normal routine (i.e. cultural norms) may end up offending and seeming quite barbaric to a neighboring group, if their cultural norms end up clashing.

Are you insane?

Not at all. If the traditional Middle-Eastern culture picture such concepts as "honor killings" as barbaric, do you honestly think they'd still practice them? Probably not. The fact that we consider it a terrible thing means very little to them.

Ok, but who gives a ####### what they think and do in their ####### countries?

I thought you were referring to the fact that the US or Canada do not "officially"

have one "dominant" culture that defines what's acceptable.

Did you even bother to read the second half of what I wrote or did you just jump ahead to write whatever moronic thoughts bounced around your pea-sized brain? Since you didn't think to read (not that even a tenth of the population on here does, so I wonder why I bother...), here's what I wrote:

However, certain cultural practices must be curbed when in a foreign society. The example here in this story is a good one. This Muslim father killed his daughter. In Western society (which Canada is obviously a part of), his actions would be deemed "murder." In Middle-Eastern society, his actions would probably be seen as "fair and just" considering honor killings are par for the course over there. While that may be fine if you're in the Middle-East, this man was not there; he was in Canada and therefore needed to abide by Canadian laws, even if said laws conflicted with his cultural and religious viewpoints.

Is that large and clear enough for you? Can you all get that or do I need to break it down, phonetically? I'm so ###### sick of having what I write misinterpreted or completely jumped over and then barked at by people who don't even have a god damned clue what they're talking about.