How do you know if something's halal?

[aisha kandisha 0]

I guess this all depends on how "halal" you want to go. For me personally, I don't only eat zabihah, because it's not always possible. Every imam I have spoken with has said that if bismillah is said before eating it then it's not haram. I think it's odd that we here in the west have this huge disagreement when really we should be thanking God we even have meat to eat on a daily basis. I think of some Muslims in poorer nations, who would love to get their hands on meat daily, regardless of the way it was killed....

If the imams are telling you its "not haram" if you say bismillah, they are saying that bismillah can make the haram halal. By this logic I can go have an affair but say bismillah first and it is ok. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely think what we eat is a personal choice and everyone will make that choice using their own reasoning. I just find the argument that bismillah can make things halal hokey. If we accept that we can eat the food of al-kitab, than that food is already halal and it isn't a bismillah suddenly making it so. This is much more reasonable, IMO.

I think your last statement shows how it is possible (if one so chooses) to eat only zabihah. We don't need to eat meat every day and millions and millions of Muslims survive without. Again, it comes down to a personal choice, but certainly it is possible to only eat zabihah by simply not eating meat when zabihah is not available.

As far as thanking God for our meal, the bismillah is an acknowledgment (unless it really is a haram to halal converter) and the al humdullilah at the end of a meal another remembrance/thanks.

ETA: I don't eat zabibah 100% of the time, but when I don't, it is out of laziness/lack of planning/indulgence.

Edited May 4, 2008 by aisha kandisha

[sandinista! 1,816]

when i've read of imams here saying it's permissible to eat if you say bismillah first, it was always under the context of them belonging to the school of thought that al kitab food was allowed, but since you know that christians and jews have not said bismillah first before slaughter, then saying it prior to eating fulfilled that obligation. i took it that their line of thinking was that this food wasn't haram in the first place, just incomplete in its requirements to be suitable for human consumption. saying bismillah before eating was meant to be taken as a completion, not a conversion.

when i converted, before i even met my husband, all the muslims i knew, along with myself, were vegan so none of this was ever an issue. i never even thought about it. i've eased up on what i'll eat now, based on my own choosing to do so, but when i do eat meat or animal products, it's always zabihah. i actually have no idea though whether that's come about through my own conscious decision, or if it's just because i only eat meat if i'm having something with my husband. i don't really feel like eating it any other time. does that therefore mean i only think it's allowable to eat zabihah? i don't know.

Edited May 4, 2008 by ta me go hiontach

[catknit 144]

I'd be super careful with the labels. Years ago I know there was a group out of Chicago that was trying to start a labeling union [similar to the kosher labels] for halal. Food ingredients are so varied and can be from a laundry list of sources [animal, plant, mineral]. Gelatin can be from a slew of different sources and can be labeled kosher even if it's from pigs. Any filled chocolates with marshmellow will have gelatin. Any flavored chocolates that have extracts as flavoring agents most likely have ethyl alcohol in them. Any label that reads "natural flavor" may have ethyl alcohol in it. If the stabilizers listed include glycerin - it may be from an animal source. It's sort of a ####### shoot if you go with processed food - then again who makes their own chocolate? Go with a local chocolate maker who may divulge what is in the mix and can help you pick a selection with the least questionable items or find a packaged mix with a label you can read and look up the ingredients.

[sarahaziz 0]

i heard gelatin consists of big hoofs i don't know i just know gelatins haraam its in jello, starbursts, some fruit drinks

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Ayah 5:5 says that the food of the ahl al kitab is lawful to Muslims. There are also sahih ahadith that says that it is permissible to say "Bismillah" over such foods to make them halal, that this was the practice of the Prophet. While we are to avoid pork products, authentic kosher is often endorsed as permissible under 5:5.

There is a context for that hadith and it isn't that saying bismillah suddenly makes food halal. The practice of the Prophet was to say bismillah before eating, before eating anything. It was not a means of making food halal. The context of the hadith is that Muslims came to the Prophet questioning whether or not food from other Muslims was permissible to eat when they had not seen it slaughtered. The Prophet replied to say bismillah and eat, as they would normally eat. Saying bismillah doesn't turn the non-halal miraculously into halal.

The Qur'an is clear how meat has to be killed. The al-kitab food that is permissible is al-kitab food that is zabihah. This ayat doesn't abrogate other food laws. This is reinforced by several sahih ahadith that make it clear that it is al-kitab zabihah food.

Please reread my post. I'm sure I didn't say that saying "Bismillah" over a meal makes any food halal. You are correct in saying that context is important, and the context of my comment was that authoratative interpretations taking 5:5 and the ahadith dealing with this issue (there is more than one hadith re this, btw), allow us to eat authentic KOSHER food, not just any food. In context, I have said nothing that contradicts the view that there are rules and limits defining halal foods.

[mohamed N melinda 0]

muslims just can eat meat or chicken that islamically killed by cut throat by sharp knief and say bismillah . thats the halal meat

since i came to usa i just eat cheese and vegtable till i find middle eastern store to get halal meat to eat or find a live chicken

[Nasturtium 500]

Gelatin can be from a slew of different sources and can be labeled kosher even if it's from pigs.

Then it is not kosher.

[aisha kandisha 0]

Please reread my post. I'm sure I didn't say that saying "Bismillah" over a meal makes any food halal. You are correct in saying that context is important, and the context of my comment was that authoratative interpretations taking 5:5 and the ahadith dealing with this issue (there is more than one hadith re this, btw), allow us to eat authentic KOSHER food, not just any food. In context, I have said nothing that contradicts the view that there are rules and limits defining halal foods.

You wrote

Ayah 5:5 says that the food of the ahl al kitab is lawful to Muslims. There are also sahih ahadith that says that it is permissible to say "Bismillah" over such foods to make them halal, that this was the practice of the Prophet. While we are to avoid pork products, authentic kosher is often endorsed as permissible under 5:5.

I don't know how else to read that other than "say bismillah over such foods TO MAKE them halal". I simply don't agree that bismillah makes a food halal. Bismillah is not a transformer. We say bismillah before we eat anything, even zabihah meat when we know bismillah was already said. It is Sunnah to begin a meal with bismillah, and any other undertaking. The things we are doing (eating) should already be halal.

If you reread my post, I also mentioned there are other sahih ahadith. They make it clear that it is zabihah al-kitab food.

Many people (not you) use 5:5 combined with the ayat to say supermarket meat is halal, when we have no idea how the food was slaughtered or who did the slaughtering. Again, what we eat is a personal choice, but taking ayat and hadith out of context to explain the choice (and again not you) doesn't make it halal.

I think we agree on what constitutes halal. Where we don't agree is the what bismillah does in that hadith.

muslims just can eat meat or chicken that islamically killed by cut throat by sharp knief and say bismillah . thats the halal meat

since i came to usa i just eat cheese and vegtable till i find middle eastern store to get halal meat to eat or find a live chicken

Don't forget fish. Good luck finding a chicken. Did you check out the link in the halal meat thread? It might help you to find a halal butcher. You can also order halal meat online and it is delivered on dry ice.

[Nagishkaw 510]

muslims just can eat meat or chicken that islamically killed by cut throat by sharp knief and say bismillah . thats the halal meat

since i came to usa i just eat cheese and vegtable till i find middle eastern store to get halal meat to eat or find a live chicken

You are aware that most cheese contains the stomach lining of cows.

[Nasturtium 500]

muslims just can eat meat or chicken that islamically killed by cut throat by sharp knief and say bismillah . thats the halal meat

since i came to usa i just eat cheese and vegtable till i find middle eastern store to get halal meat to eat or find a live chicken

You are aware that most cheese contains the stomach lining of cows.

And actually some contains pig rennet as well. If you want to keep kosher, you look for kosher cheese. I would assume people interested in keeping halal would do the same-- either look for cheese that was kosher/halal, or eat veggie cheese.

[Nagishkaw 510]

I didn't want to mention the pig rennet, so thanks Julianna .

[Nasturtium 500]

I didn't want to mention the pig rennet, so thanks Julianna .

I have a cheese making book and one of the things it mentions is that you can make a vegetable rennet out of cardoons. I figured I am going to ahve to give that one a try. I want cheddar cheese in Jordan.

ETA it's usually hard cheese that contain rennet, not all cheeses.

Edited May 5, 2008 by julianna

[catknit 144]

Gelatin can be from a slew of different sources and can be labeled kosher even if it's from pigs.

Then it is not kosher.

Actually it can be. That's why a kosher mark can be deceiving. Different koshering unions have different rules about what constitutes kosher. For the record I have spent numerous years working in food plants. Many were kosher facilities - I've spent countless hours with rabbis discussing these things because part of my job was coming up with formulations that can be acceptable to different markets.

There are certain bodies that will allow gelatin from pigs to be deemed kosher. Call them liberal minded, call them wrong, but they do exist.

The logic behind it is two fold. First, in order to get a purified gelatin from an animal source there are many steps including at least one that makes the inprocess material non-edible. Part of the logic that the resulting gelatin is kosher is that the step where the material in no longer a food becomes the new starting point of sourcing. It's something similar to this: Pig-hooves-slurry [totally can't be kosher to this point because it is clearly porcine] - Slurry to chemical brew that is non-edible and now no longer considered a food [grey area - is it still pig related or is it now a "new" entity] - Chemical brew to purified gelatin [can be kosher because the start point was a non-food chemical slurry]. The second argument is that gelatin ends up being a purified protein that has no characteristics of it's source - would a molecule of water that was extracted from an open sewer be any different than a molecule of water from a mountain fed stream?

There is a ton of debate about this. A ton - hundreds of pages of arguments and such according to the rabbis I've spoken to.

[Nasturtium 500]

Actually it can be. That's why a kosher mark can be deceiving. Different koshering unions have different rules about what constitutes kosher. For the record I have spent numerous years working in food plants. Many were kosher facilities - I've spent countless hours with rabbis discussing these things because part of my job was coming up with formulations that can be acceptable to different markets.

There are certain bodies that will allow gelatin from pigs to be deemed kosher. Call them liberal minded, call them wrong, but they do exist.

The logic behind it is two fold. First, in order to get a purified gelatin from an animal source there are many steps including at least one that makes the inprocess material non-edible. Part of the logic that the resulting gelatin is kosher is that the step where the material in no longer a food becomes the new starting point of sourcing. It's something similar to this: Pig-hooves-slurry [totally can't be kosher to this point because it is clearly porcine] - Slurry to chemical brew that is non-edible and now no longer considered a food [grey area - is it still pig related or is it now a "new" entity] - Chemical brew to purified gelatin [can be kosher because the start point was a non-food chemical slurry]. The second argument is that gelatin ends up being a purified protein that has no characteristics of it's source - would a molecule of water that was extracted from an open sewer be any different than a molecule of water from a mountain fed stream?

There is a ton of debate about this. A ton - hundreds of pages of arguments and such according to the rabbis I've spoken to.

That may be so, but it doesn't qualify according to the Torah. There are several "liberal" groups, one of which begins with an "R" and they don't keep a lot of the laws which everyone else thinks are mandatory...

Even if they don't keep them themselves... it's like the whole making halal haraam and haraam halal thing. You may not eat halal but you generally won't find *most* muslims arguing for eating pork as halal if you just say Bismillah over it. I hope that makes sense. There are some, and I have heard this argument myself-- but it doesn't qualify according to Qu'ran IMO.

That's why I said it's better to be familiar with what you are using. I don't like processed or prepackaged food in general which solves most dietary issues. If you grew the food yourself (or bought it fresh) you generally know what went into it.

Many people say it's not possible for everyone to eat a restricted diet because of cost.. but I really think it is. I lived below poverty level for probably 6?7? years as a student with absolutely no financial help from anyone. Granted, I did not have children. I lived in apartments and rented houses, and I managed to either grow some of my own food in pots or in the ground from seed or I bought from local farmer's markets or roadside stands, or just plain from the store. I went vegetarian which really helped with the costs of things (meat is pretty expensive). I was doing this with a spouse as well... so that's another adult.. and I am pretty sure we could have handeled 2-3 additional eaters. It involved choices-- no cable, no cell phone, etc. Food was a priority. Food is still a priority for me and I just never got into the other once I even could.

Also it is to be noted that many companies which advertise themselves as certified kosher will have somehting that isn't. Kraft says it is certified kosher. You call them and they will repeat the same thing. You look at their little boxes and they say the same thing. Ask for documentation.... and what you get is that all is certified except their jello, and their jello has the risk of touching other items. That would render everything suspect.

Just to add a random piece of macabre, all gelatin (from animal) smells the same. I imagine if it smells the same it probably tastes the same, which makes sense why it's all used interchangably. I never really liked the concept of jello too much, although when I was younger I loved drinking jello-water before it set. After doing chemical analyses on human bone where you turn it into gelatin first, I could never even *think* about it again. It smells exactly the same!

[simple_male 1]

Interesting discussion. I don't like when any Imam says "just say bismillah to eat any meat (beef, chicken, and of course not pork)) from fast food, restaurant, store." Actually, the correct tradition for Muslims is to say bismillah before any activities including eating. Now, saying bismillah won't make any haram activity to a halal one. For example, for muslims saying bismillah before eating pork and drinking alchohol won't make it halal. Yes, Surah 5:5 says foods of Ahlal Kitab is lawful for Muslims. Obviously, it means the foods which are allowed for Muslims to eat. Now I have heard two opinions regarding meat in this regard. One group says eating meat (that Muslims can eat) from ahlal kitab is allowed even though they were not slaghtered and the other group says Muslims can only eat, if the meat was slaughterd and the name of the God is pronounced before the animal was slaughtered.