Closed Borders

[Nancy2015 2]

History in Russia has still largely been whitewashed and altered. Many Russians would not believe that the US and UK even fought in World War II. Much of the destruction in the Soviet Union was a result of the poor planning and poor strategy of the Soviets at the beginning of the war. Remember, the Soviets were an aggressor in this war (they annexed Finland and Poland, which both caused great losses on thier own, and sped up the German offensive).

Still a sore spot with my (Finnish) family.

Some of the statements in your post are not entirely correct, and the one in bold is just plain wrong. I really don't understand why you came to this conclusion.

[Nancy2015 2]

The American Revolution was similar to the Russian one, we both had a King, and both got rid of him. Our new government just lasted a bit longer.

In a sense it was similar, but on the other hand, it was entirely different. We're talking about the October revolution of 1917, correct? There were three revolutions at the beginning of the 20th century, 1905-07, February 1917 and October 1917. The bloodiest thing was the Civil War that followed the one in October, and the Intervention. No one ever remembers the Intervention...

I don't think Russians are in any way "stoic" or anything like that - we just don't give a ####### most of the time. I certainly don't, unless I'm being pushed. Then I push back

[Danno 1,228]

As far as global warming goes, <snip> some of the brightest climatologists in the world, and I can tell you that they're convinced that global warming is real, .........

I don't doubt they do believe it's real, in fact this type of group-think backed up with "science of the day" has, historically happened over and over on down through time yet we always have the utmost confidence in the latest round of science... as if we have "finally arrived."

Perhaps this time they will be correct, but I can promise you if they are not, there will be no public flogging, no one will ask "how they could have been so certain and yet so wrong".... Nope, it will be on to the next Doom and Gloom story line.

[mox 298]

Agreed but we have no "institutional" memory of either of these wars. For most Americans the Civil War is all about the Gettysburg Address (which most Americans have never read or even know what it's about) and Gone with the Wind. I read a survey sometime back where 70% of responding high school kids believed George Washington fought in the Civil War. That's sad.

Over 500,000 died during the civil war, it was hardly a trivial event.

Um...I didn't say that it was.

[Danno 1,228]

Agreed but we have no "institutional" memory of either of these wars. For most Americans the Civil War is all about the Gettysburg Address (which most Americans have never read or even know what it's about) and Gone with the Wind. I read a survey sometime back where 70% of responding high school kids believed George Washington fought in the Civil War. That's sad.

Over 500,000 died during the civil war, it was hardly a trivial event.

Um...I didn't say that it was.

Actually, I believe it was more like .........................600,000.

Thats a lot of friggin people, I think Iraq is right around 4000.

[russ 1]

Actually, I believe it was more like .........................600,000.

Thats a lot of friggin people, I think Iraq is right around 4000.

It was a big deal. It was the first case of modern warfare, machine guns, etc. The US was a much smaller place then, there were only 27 million of us at the time. We are ten times larger now, it would be like 6 million Americans dying if such a war happened today.

[slim 1,523]

Thats a lot of friggin people, I think Iraq is right around 4000.

4,000 people, or 4,000 Americans?

I guess we're not counting Iraqis and others as people anymore. Too bad, because they sure count themselves as people.

[mox 298]

Thats a lot of friggin people, I think Iraq is right around 4000.

4,000 people, or 4,000 Americans?

I guess we're not counting Iraqis and others as people anymore. Too bad, because they sure count themselves as people.

Documented Iraqi deaths is somewhere around 80,000. The actual toll is probably closer to a half million, as most deaths go un-reported. Also, in order to qualify as a statistic you have to die in a very specific way that is narrowly defined by the occupying...er, I mean coalition force in such a way as to keep the statistics low.

[Danno 1,228]

Thats a lot of friggin people, I think Iraq is right around 4000.

4,000 people, or 4,000 Americans?

I guess we're not counting Iraqis and others as people anymore. Too bad, because they sure count themselves as people.

-------------------

Sure people are people.

We can count civilian deaths in Iraq as well, only problem is, the "numbers" are hard to know because groups at both end of the spectrum seem to be adding or minimizing according to their

political goals.

Since 5 American wars were mentioned here ... why is it you only feel the need to count civilians when "Iraq" came to the table?

Someone with more time than me please post civilian casualties for some other wars.

Edited November 16, 2007 by Danno

[slim 1,523]

Since 5 American wars were mentioned here ... why is it you only feel the need to count civilians when "Iraq" came to the table?

Because it's also the time that I came to the table. There are a whole bunch of good posts here and there would be a lot of replies I could've made, but when I checked this thread out, the most recent stream of discussion shifted to Iraq.

Plus, I lived in the Middle East for over a year and I believe the whole situation over there is completely misunderstood by the average American with most folks here thinking the death toll for that war is somewhere near 4000 because that's what they hear on TV. They fail to make the correlation between the number of people dying there and what it would mean if the same number of people were killed in our country as a result of our government being toppled by a foreign invader.

If you guys want to really point fingers and talk numbers, how about blankets infected with smallpox?

[mox 298]

Since 5 American wars were mentioned here ... why is it you only feel the need to count civilians when "Iraq" came to the table?

Someone with more time than me please post civilian casualties for some other wars.

The figures I quoted in my posts about the Russian Revolution and WW2 were combined military and civilian deaths.

Plus, I lived in the Middle East for over a year and I believe the whole situation over there is completely misunderstood by the average American

I spent 6 months in the Middle East, and completely agree with you. The problem is complex on so many levels, but most Americans think it's just about a magnetic ribbon on their SUV. Kinda goes back to the other posts where I was saying Americans have no sense of their own history. In actuality, Americans (in general) have no sense of any history whatsoever. And so we keep repeating not only our own mistakes, but the mistakes of others.

[slim 1,523]

I spent 6 months in the Middle East, and completely agree with you. The problem is complex on so many levels, but most Americans think it's just about a magnetic ribbon on their SUV.

Funny how time served in the AO changes your perspective, isn't it? It's kind of like trying to explain having a Russian fiancee or wife to someone who's never been outside the U.S. "Wow, so she's like, from one of those catalogs or something?"

[Danno 1,228]

I spent 6 months in the Middle East, and completely agree with you. The problem is complex on so many levels, but most Americans think it's just about a magnetic ribbon on their SUV. Kinda goes back to the other posts where I was saying Americans have no sense of their own history. In actuality, Americans (in general) have no sense of any history whatsoever. And so we keep repeating not only our own mistakes, but the mistakes of others.

-----------------

It's absolutely complex with no good options.

I am stunned at people who claim to care so much for the Iraq people (not referring to Mr.Slim) and without hesitation want total troop withdraw.

When the blood flows, what will they do... probably the same things the Nam protesters did when we Pulled out of Viet-nam... Silence, while slaughter began and continued on.

No more songs or marches, no more student demonstrations, no nothing. Most people did not even know about it until years later, even the News packed up and moved on. Meanwhile something like a million were killed. Meanwhile the "give peace a chance" bumper-stickers began to curl at the edge and fade away.

They didn't care about yellow people anymore than anyone else did.

Great movie on the true life story of one Vietnamese who lived through it and made to to america (only to be killed on the streets in California) was The Killing fields.

[russ 1]

Great movie on the true life story of one Vietnamese who lived through it and made to to america (only to be killed on the streets in California) was The Killing fields.

Sorry to challenge your history, but "The Killing Fields" was not about Vietnam. It was Cambodia, the Khmer Rouge. The man who ultimately escaped became a New York Times photographer, and was ultimately killed in a car crash.

It had absolutey nothing to do with America or our military.

We watched it in my 8th grade geography class, I'm quoting this from memory (but I'm fairly certain that I am correct)

[mox 298]

Great movie on the true life story of one Vietnamese who lived through it and made to to america (only to be killed on the streets in California) was The Killing fields.

Sorry to challenge your history, but "The Killing Fields" was not about Vietnam. It was Cambodia, the Khmer Rouge. The man who ultimately escaped became a New York Times photographer, and was ultimately killed in a car crash.

It had absolutey nothing to do with America or our military.

We watched it in my 8th grade geography class, I'm quoting this from memory (but I'm fairly certain that I am correct)

You beat me to it, but yeah. The Killing Fields was about the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia.

It's absolutely complex with no good options.

I am stunned at people who claim to care so much for the Iraq people (not referring to Mr.Slim) and without hesitation want total troop withdraw.

When the blood flows, what will they do... probably the same things the Nam protesters did when we Pulled out of Viet-nam... Silence, while slaughter began and continued on.

Most people who advocate troop withdrawal--and I'm one of them--advocate a responsible troop withdrawal. Not overnight, but over a reasonable amount of time. One thing I learned about the Arabs while I was in Saudi Arabia (I worked for Lucent) is that they are in no hurry to get anything done unless it's absolutely imperative. The reason you see the Iraqi government doing nothing is because they feel no sense of pressure. The pressure is all on the Americans. Now, you give them an absolute date when there wont' be any more Americans and I can guarantee they'll start getting stuff done. They have way too much to lose not to.

Unfortunately this administration has painted themselves in a corner through their own gigantic egos. They refuse to do "timetables," despite the fact that the diplomatic corps "on the ground" has urged it time and time again.

No more songs or marches, no more student demonstrations, no nothing. Most people did not even know about it until years later, even the News packed up and moved on. Meanwhile something like a million were killed. Meanwhile the "give peace a chance" bumper-stickers began to curl at the edge and fade away.

They didn't care about yellow people anymore than anyone else did.

Um...what?!?! We are talking about the Vietnam war, right? If you were talking about Korea, I'd agree. But nobody's forgotten Vietnam. I mean, nobody except the people running the Iraq war. Everyone else remembers.