The hadith is not islam!

[Nasturtium 500]

Thanks MBP for your answers!

[mybackpages 0]

Thanks MBP for your answers!

YAY I made sense! now wait...someone will come along and "correct" me

BTW your are welcome Julianna

[The dip sticks 0]

For those of you who do not follow any of the hadiths, how do you know the correct way to pray?

Allah, the God says in 6:38 that HE did not leave out anything out of Qur'an. Salaat and the other rituals of Islam are not mentioned in Hadiths and Sunna as well. Pr. Mohammed followed the same Contact prayer that Pr. Abraham did yeara before.

The Quran proclaims that the Quran is complete, perfect, and fully detailed (6:19, 38, 114, 115; 50:45), and that religious regulations not specifically instituted in the Quran constitute a religion other than Islam, (submisssion).

The true believers uphold the Quran, the whole Quran, and nothing but the Quran. Quran is complete, perfect and fully detailed and should therefore be the only source of religious laws and guidance. The true obedience of prophet Muhammad is only by obeying the Quran, which is indeed a narration through the Prophet. Thus the Quran is the only true and proven Hadith from prophet Muhammad.

This principle is confirmed by the Quran's mathematical code. Verse 46 of Surat 17 proclaims that we shall uphold the Quran ALONE. The word "ALONE" occurs in the Quran 6 times: 7:70, 17:46, 39:45, 40: 12 & 84, and 60:4. All these occurrences refer to God, except 17:46. When we add the numbers of suras and verses which refer to "GOD ALONE," we get 361, 19x19. This proves that 17:46 refers to "the Quran ALONE.

Ok...so where in the Quran does it tell you how many rakats at which prayer time? I've read the Quran three times from front to back so not too much but never have I seen such specifics. I've seen in the Quran when to pray but not exactly how. What surah tells me exactly what to say at what prayer time and when to prostrate during the salat, etc? I was taught that the Quran tells me to follow what the Prophet Mohammed, pbuh, does and that by doing so his companions learned the proper way to pray.

the times and way to pray and words are all in the quran.

I know that is what you are telling me and I am asking you to please show me what surahs tell me how many rakats for each salat and when to prostrate during my salats please.

I can say everything is in the Quran too but without exact quotes proving your point it's just typing on a screen.

Hi, ok im not going to put much of my views in it as honestly I dont have the time right now, but I will paste some important points from the Quran on relation to the positions of prayer, the timing and ablution.

God tells us that the Quran contains all the details (6:114) and that nothing has been left out of the book (6:38).

The position of prayers:

"You shall consistently observe the Salat (Contact Prayers), especially the middle prayer, and STAND before God in submission." 2:238

"The angels called to him as he was STANDING praying in the sanctuary: "God gives you good news of John; a believer in the word of God, honorable, moral, and a righteous prophet." 3:39

"When you are with them, and lead the Salat (Contact Prayer) for them, let a group of them STAND with you and let them hold their weapons, and let them stand behind you as you prostrate. Then, let the other group that has not prayed take their turn praying with you, while the others stand guard and hold their weapons." 4:102

All the above three verses indicate the standing postion. Verse 4:102 in particular indicates that the prayer starts in the standing position. The words : "When you are with them, and lead the prayer for them, let a group of them STAND with you and let them hold their weapons" indicate the biginning of the prayer, that is because it is not feasible to say that the group of believers would join the salat in its middle or near its end! Consequently the words "let a group of them STAND with you" indicate that the prayer starts in the standing position.

"We appointed Abraham to establish the Shrine: "You shall not idolize any other god beside Me, and purify My shrine for those who visit it, those who live near it, and those who BOW and PROSTRATE." 22:26

"Muhammad-the messenger of God, and those with him are harsh and stern against the disbelievers, but kind and compassionate amongst themselves. You see them BOWING and PROSTRATING, as they seek God's blessings and approval." 48:29

The greater majority of Quranic verses speak of bowing and prostrating in that order. This seems the logical progression from the standing position, i.e. standing then bowing then prostrating.

The prayer ends with the last prostration:

" ...... then when they have performed their prostration (fa iza sajadu) let them fall to the rear and let another group come that has not worshipped yet and let them worship with you ......" 4:102

These three Quranic physical movements (standing, bowing and prostrating) are not required at the times of emergencies, fear, and unusual circumstances (2:239).

“Under unusual circumstances, you may pray while walking or riding. Once you are safe, you shall commemorate God as He taught you what you never knew." 2:239

The times of prayer:

"You shall observe the Salat (Contact Prayer) from when the sun declines from its highest point up till the the darkness of the night." 17:78

"You shall observe the Salat (Contact Prayers) at the ends of the day, and during the night."11:114

“You shall consistently observe the Contact Prayers, especially the middle prayer, and devote yourselves totally to GOD”. 2:238

“O you who believe, permission must be requested by your servants and the children who have not attained puberty (before entering your rooms). This is to be done in three instances - before the Dawn Prayer” 24:58

The ablution (notice the slight variation than the normal hadith one)!:

"O you who believe, when you observe the Salat (Contact Prayers) you shall wash your faces, wash your arms to the elbows, wipe your heads and wash your feet to the ankles." 5:6

hope its helpful.

Regards

Adiel (Mireyas hubby)

[doodlebug 3]

Thanks!

So because you do not follow any of the hadiths, do you simply stand, bow, then prostrate and voila you are done with each prayer until the next time rolls around? You don't actually say anything at all?

I do think there is mention in the Quran about cutting the Fajr short though.

[The dip sticks 0]

Thanks!

So because you do not follow any of the hadiths, do you simply stand, bow, then prostrate and voila you are done with each prayer until the next time rolls around? You don't actually say anything at all?

I do think there is mention in the Quran about cutting the Fajr short though.

No... the words are in the quran also... but please show me mercy for one day

This took a long time, I'll post the words tomorrow ok

[Carolyn 1]

I am going to also recommend the Karen Armstrong biography, Muhammad: A Biography of the Prophet. It was written a while ago (1992 or 93), but it felt very relevant today, even in light of all the world events that have happened since then. I liked how she put the Prophet in historical context, and explained the origins of Islam. Even my husband thought she explained things well.

Does anyone have any suggestions on a good English translation of the Koran with an explanation for the passages? I have an English Koran, but it is hard to just read it and understand the implications of the words.

Shukran bezzef,

Carolyn

[mybackpages 0]

If anyone is looking for a good book on understanding Islamic law and why the muslim community is what it is today and all the factors in understanding the and hadiths, i'd recommend The Evolution of Fiqh by Abu Ameenah Bilal Philips. It;s abit old an their might be newer books out there, but this one is very simple and basic.

[Nasturtium 500]

YAY I made sense! now wait...someone will come along and "correct" me

BTW your are welcome Julianna

Well I never really care to agree or disagree with someone on matters of faith and religion-- in the sense that I believe religion and science are seperate, one is a matter of faith and the other a matter of testing, support, and unsupport for questions So your answer made sense! I won't debate whether or not I believe what Islam teaches, since I have no need to explain my faith to anyone here (and no one is asking a related question to it!)

[doodlebug 3]

Thanks!

So because you do not follow any of the hadiths, do you simply stand, bow, then prostrate and voila you are done with each prayer until the next time rolls around? You don't actually say anything at all?

I do think there is mention in the Quran about cutting the Fajr short though.

No... the words are in the quran also... but please show me mercy for one day

This took a long time, I'll post the words tomorrow ok

Ok.

Let me ask you though......did you learn how to pray by reading the Quran until you yourself put the pieces together? If not did someone teach you how to pray and how did they learn?

My point is basically that were I brand spanking new to Islam with no muslims around me and no internet and only the Quran......I really don't think that I'm that gifted enough to be able to piece the surahs that you mention together enough to be able to perform the salat properly. Unless what you're saying is that those of us who follow a certain madhab and pray a certain way are doing it differently than the muslims that only follow Quran and no hadiths.

I'm just trying to wrap my mind around how the muslims that do not follow hadiths learned how to pray without someone guiding them who already was taught from someone who was taught from someone, etc. going all the way back to Mohammed, pbuh............which would essentially be the same as following a hadith.

Does that makes sense? (aren't you glad you posted this here??? lol)

[The dip sticks 0]

Thanks!

So because you do not follow any of the hadiths, do you simply stand, bow, then prostrate and voila you are done with each prayer until the next time rolls around? You don't actually say anything at all?

I do think there is mention in the Quran about cutting the Fajr short though.

No... the words are in the quran also... but please show me mercy for one day

This took a long time, I'll post the words tomorrow ok

Ok.

Let me ask you though......did you learn how to pray by reading the Quran until you yourself put the pieces together? If not did someone teach you how to pray and how did they learn?

My point is basically that were I brand spanking new to Islam with no muslims around me and no internet and only the Quran......I really don't think that I'm that gifted enough to be able to piece the surahs that you mention together enough to be able to perform the salat properly. Unless what you're saying is that those of us who follow a certain madhab and pray a certain way are doing it differently than the muslims that only follow Quran and no hadiths.

I'm just trying to wrap my mind around how the muslims that do not follow hadiths learned how to pray without someone guiding them who already was taught from someone who was taught from someone, etc. going all the way back to Mohammed, pbuh............which would essentially be the same as following a hadith.

Does that makes sense? (aren't you glad you posted this here??? lol)

The question you need to ask is where did the prophet muhammed learn it from?... The best bet would be the Quran.

Again as I emphasized in the original pasting, the hadith is flawed, its man made so there is no way to authenticate anything in there especially when someones fathers fathers uncles fathers etc heard it from the prophet, thats way too unreliable.

Besides the Quran itself emphasizes that the prophet had no authority to say anything from himself other than that which is in the Quran.

An easy example is just look at the ablution why is it different than what the Quran clearly states??

Actually I was basically from a clean slate, my father is not religious at all and my mother never shoved religion down my throat apart from getting me to go to the mosque to finish reading the Quran when I was about 5 or 6 but after that I was basically left to it. At about 14 I read the quran again and from there I started questioning why things are not the same as in the Quran.

I always had a feeling something was amiss, so I pretty much didn't think it was the REAL religion as I couldn't relate to the way people followed it so i started looking at other religions christianity, judaism, buddhism and even Taoism. I pretty much followed the philosophy of taoism and it answered alot for me as in the "way" of the universe. It's only years later I started re examining the Quran and thats when I started following the Quran itself. After I looked for others online and found some people beginning to doing the same. Although I must admit I seperate myself from them I have major issues with those following like the code 19 and all that and advocating taking 2 verses out. I dont believe that to be correct.

But also the way I read the quran I dont think you even need to be a follower of the Quran to be a muslim per say. Anyone who is an absolute monotheist (believes in God alone) with no partners and no sons etc is a muslim. How can they not be when the testament of faith is lailahaillala (there is no God but God) as stated in the Quran. The hadith states Lailahaillala-muhammedurasulula (there is no god but God and Muhammed is his messanger) but I challenge anyone to find this in the Quran, it simply isn't there. The first pillar of islam and the most important according to muslims isn't even in the Quran??... makes u think doesn't it. Just like the words in prayer the hadith use muhammed, moses and Abraham's name in their prayers when prayer should be for God alone as stated in the Quran. The quran states our religion is the same as abraham and he was the first given the prayers, do you think he said Muhammeds name in his prayer?? or moses name? or even his own name???... I think not because Muhammed and moses were not around till millenniums later and Im sure he didn't use his own name. God has said the quran is COMPLETE and NOTHING is LEFT OUT... so why follow hadith if its complete and nothing left out... was God joking when he said this???... no way.

Adiel (mireyas hubby)

[AngelK96 0]

This thread is actually interesting. Keep posting Mr. Dipsticks ( Mireya's Husband)

Angel

[doodlebug 3]

Thanks for taking the time to type all that out. That's a lot to digest so I'll have to think about it for a while.

[peezey 0]

Who uses Moses' name in tashahud? This is a new one on me.

[AngelK96 0]

I know they use Abraham

I never heard moses though hmm

Angel

[The_dip_sticks 0]

I know they use Abraham

I never heard moses though hmm

Angel

Yes Im sorry that was a mistake on my part I ment to say Abraham not Moses.