MENA/USA marriages

[StupidJourney 0]

I was reading this article in a magazine while waiting at the doctor's office. It was called the fish test. It was given to both men and women. It gives you a scenario. Say you're at home, making some fish on the stove for you and your SO. When you go to take the fish out of the pan, one of filets starts to crumble apart, so that it's broken into several unattractive pieces. You proceed to put the fish on the plates, as well as the rice and vegetables. When you go to the dinner table to set out the plates, which fish piece to you give to your SO, the nice looking one, or the unattractive one?

Well, during the study (and this happened to me too), most of the women already knew where the scenario was going by the time it said "one of the filets starts to crumble apart" However, most of the men did not. And the men in the study also were shown to not realize that their wives were making such daily "sacrifices." The article also talked about how women tend to look for these little ways to scarfice, as a way to show their love, but men tend to see their scarifice in other terms, such as working to support the family.

I'm sure every single one of us would give the good fish to our husbands. And is there anything wrong with that? I don't think so; it's nice to do something for the other person. But the problem is when the other person doesn't even recognize it as a sacrifice. And pretty soon, we're left with nothing of ourselves because we've given it all away.

I've made lots of sacrifices that I didn't think I would have done. And the majority of them are small things that weren't important to me anyway. But I think we should never sacrifice on the big issues. If our SOs can understand the importance of these big issues to our sense of self, then maybe there is something wrong with the relationship.

Thanks for the great post. This is where my mind was even if I couldnt get the words out right n the first post. I think not only should our SOs understand the importance of the big issues, we have to understand what are the big issues for ourselves as well.

I am not so sure we always know when we are allowing ourselves to slip away.

BTW My husbands gives me the nice fish and i always insist I take the broken one. Wonder what that says about me LOL

I think you're definitely right about that, and that gets to the heart of the problem. I've seen it happen to people I know, who finally realize they're miserable and don't know who they are anymore, because they had to put aside their dreams and the things that would make them happy-the dreams of that writing career they put aside, not going to the community school to learn pottery in order to pick up the kids from soccer, that vacation to Costa Rica they put off, their desire to volunteer at the food bank that just couldn't be fit into that busy schedule with the family.

My parents both are nurses. They both finished school while they had infant children. My mom finished first, while my dad worked to support the family. Then my dad finished up while my mom worked. They both had dreams, and they came up with a plan so they could both achieve them. Both partners have to support each other in the things that are important. That's the only way the relationship can work, and the only way to prevent one (or both) of the partners to wake up one day and say "what the hell happened to my life?"

[StupidJourney 0]

Yup, a very narrow line to walk, IMO. At what point does a person stop being a big-hearted, self-sacrificing person and turn into a doormat? I think there must be a point where too much sacrifice leads to a lack of respect, which is counterintuitive to some degree. I find that kind of sad, but it happens to people every day - at work, in relationships - romantic and otherwise. I would like to think that I'm not the type of person who would fail to recognize the sacrifices and even the small gestures of others, but I think everyone is guilty of this to some extent.

And sometimes the sacrifices lead to a lost of your sense of identity so much that you become a cricature of the other culture. It is a very fine line to walk between embracing a new culture and yet remaining true to your own self.

As i mentioned in my OP, this phenomenon is not unique to MENA/US marriages, but when you add in a bi-cultural dimension to the marriage, how do you walk this line?

I think you're righ tthat the bi-cultural dimension makes things more sticky. I think growing up, seeing other marriages, we all started getting ideas about what's "normal" to give up after marriage. Like maybe late nights with friends or spending money on whatever you want. But or SOs also grew up with ideas about what's normal to give up in marriage, and while some of these things are the same, not all of them are. And that's when it gets hard, when you have to give up something you didn't dream of giving up before. Like someone else said, swimming in public. Or an example for me, my husband becomes jealous when I am too direct in my eye contact with men I don't know (I'm talking about the little nods or smiles you might do as you pass a stranger on the street). This is something I never thought would be an issue before - just trying to be friendly. I'm sure he didn't think he would be cooking meals as often as he does either. We're both having to change our attitudes about what husbands and wives should do in marriage. And I think it definitely has to be a too way street. We have to give up some things, especially because they are giving up so much to live with us here.

[sereia 0]

I was reading this article in a magazine while waiting at the doctor's office. It was called the fish test. It was given to both men and women. It gives you a scenario. Say you're at home, making some fish on the stove for you and your SO. When you go to take the fish out of the pan, one of filets starts to crumble apart, so that it's broken into several unattractive pieces. You proceed to put the fish on the plates, as well as the rice and vegetables. When you go to the dinner table to set out the plates, which fish piece to you give to your SO, the nice looking one, or the unattractive one?

Well, during the study (and this happened to me too), most of the women already knew where the scenario was going by the time it said "one of the filets starts to crumble apart" However, most of the men did not. And the men in the study also were shown to not realize that their wives were making such daily "sacrifices." The article also talked about how women tend to look for these little ways to scarfice, as a way to show their love, but men tend to see their scarifice in other terms, such as working to support the family.

I'm sure every single one of us would give the good fish to our husbands. And is there anything wrong with that? I don't think so; it's nice to do something for the other person. But the problem is when the other person doesn't even recognize it as a sacrifice. And pretty soon, we're left with nothing of ourselves because we've given it all away.

I've made lots of sacrifices that I didn't think I would have done. And the majority of them are small things that weren't important to me anyway. But I think we should never sacrifice on the big issues. If our SOs can understand the importance of these big issues to our sense of self, then maybe there is something wrong with the relationship.

Thanks for the great post. This is where my mind was even if I couldnt get the words out right n the first post. I think not only should our SOs understand the importance of the big issues, we have to understand what are the big issues for ourselves as well.

I am not so sure we always know when we are allowing ourselves to slip away.

BTW My husbands gives me the nice fish and i always insist I take the broken one. Wonder what that says about me LOL

I think you're definitely right about that, and that gets to the heart of the problem. I've seen it happen to people I know, who finally realize they're miserable and don't know who they are anymore, because they had to put aside their dreams and the things that would make them happy-the dreams of that writing career they put aside, not going to the community school to learn pottery in order to pick up the kids from soccer, that vacation to Costa Rica they put off, their desire to volunteer at the food bank that just couldn't be fit into that busy schedule with the family.

My parents both are nurses. They both finished school while they had infant children. My mom finished first, while my dad worked to support the family. Then my dad finished up while my mom worked. They both had dreams, and they came up with a plan so they could both achieve them. Both partners have to support each other in the things that are important. That's the only way the relationship can work, and the only way to prevent one (or both) of the partners to wake up one day and say "what the hell happened to my life?"

this is all exactly was i was attempting to say about my parents marriage, but i couldn't get the right words out. my mom sacrificed everything for my dad. little things like the perfect fish fillet, only buying what kind of ice cream HE liked, taking a hunting safari to africa instead of shopping in paris, things like this... after a while she lost her sense of herself. and he never appreciated it! never! and who's fault is it? did he ask her not to buy her favorite ice cream? did he ask for the perfect fillet? no, she was doing it out of love, out of wanting to please him...although he never realized nor appreciated these small things. it was definitely a great lesson learned for me growing up. keeping your sense of self is really important, while also compromising. definitely a fine line!

[deemabrouk 0]

hahaaaaaa....

I did the same thing.. I woke myself out of sleep

I laid there.. Stunned..

then a mintue later he farted in his sleep..

so then I didnt feel bad and when back asleep

you need to introduce him to this time honored ritual between married couples

where do you find these!!!!!!!!!!!!

lol

[sarah and hicham 3]

Bye bye little piggie.......and I will wear capri's instead of shorts and short sleeved shirts instead of tank tops. I know I'll have to cook a lot more often too. But these are small changes and easy to live with. He's willing to make compromises with me too. He isn't overly happy that I have a large golden retriever that lives in the house. Our compromise is the dog stays out of our bedroom.

Why do you have to wear capris instead of shorts and short sleeved shirts instead of tank tops?

[aminah 6]

Bye bye little piggie.......and I will wear capri's instead of shorts and short sleeved shirts instead of tank tops. I know I'll have to cook a lot more often too. But these are small changes and easy to live with. He's willing to make compromises with me too. He isn't overly happy that I have a large golden retriever that lives in the house. Our compromise is the dog stays out of our bedroom.

Why do you have to wear capris instead of shorts and short sleeved shirts instead of tank tops?

In public my husband feels that shorts and tank tops are like being half naked. I respect his feeling on this and tend to agree with him at least about the tank tops (for me anyway). I'm not a twenty-something or even a thirty-something anymore. Maybe if I was still at those ages I would feel differently. I'm fine with it though.

[Hassan /mony 0]

Bye bye little piggie.......and I will wear capri's instead of shorts and short sleeved shirts instead of tank tops. I know I'll have to cook a lot more often too. But these are small changes and easy to live with. He's willing to make compromises with me too. He isn't overly happy that I have a large golden retriever that lives in the house. Our compromise is the dog stays out of our bedroom.

when my love gets here i don't plan on changing anything but moving into bigger place. we al ready have so much in comman, he likes to do the same things i do . and i like to do the things he likes . but i would like to learn how to cook some of the food from Morocco , if you really love your man /or wife it won't hurt to try once in a while to cook what he likes and it can be very fun cooking together in the kitchen , if you know what i mean. try to make him feel at home remember you both are in for changes and he or she may get home sick than what do you do? mony

[AInfante-Saraireh 0]

Well it was an adjustment at first when my husband arrived. We always slept well together. I had already farted when laughing so hard the first visit to Jordan and that just cracked him up. So he's use to my farts now and then. My husband is use to his mom and sisters doing most everything for him, so I do most of the cooking and cleaning. He does do the stove, hate cleaning the stove. When he wasn't working, he cooked a lot for us. Now that he works so much, I do most of it all now. When i was in Jordan, he didn't pray 5 times a day. Soon as he arrived in Chicago, he did. And then Ramadan followed and that was an experience. A few times he came out of the bedroom and I forgot he was living there and I was naked. He put his hand up trying not to look at me, lol. He's learning little by little on fixing things around the house, after I lectured him that I'm tired of wearing the pants in this house. Other wise, we get along well. I had to adjust to him sending money home. But he pays half the bills, so no complaints as of yet. My husband is not big to go out and buy me cards and gifts, but I realized he doesn't feel comfortable some of the time because things are different here and more expensive. But if I tell him i want this or that, he will let me have it. He's not a control freak but doesn't want me half naked on the street. He hasn't learned how to mix his friends at work and his home life. He has accepted my dogs, but now I have 3 and he gets a bit negative about 3 dogs, lol Love my dogs!!!

He still lives his life sometimes like he is still single. But he is learning gradually to communicate with me about finances, trips and other matters. Argh!

Can't think of anything else right now.

Andrea

Oh and the Arabic TV drives me nuts. He watches it most of the time when he's home. Then at bed time he has to listen to the tv at 200 decimals or higher. I asked him if he was deaf, he said no, but i wonder.

[amal 4]

I'd rather implode from trapped gas than fart in front of my husband (or really anyone else besides my kids). However, apparently I did pass gas once in my sleep. I accused Moh of purposely staying awake just to catch me farting.

hahaaaaaa....

I did the same thing.. I woke myself out of sleep

I laid there.. Stunned..

then a mintue later he farted in his sleep..

so then I didnt feel bad and when back asleep

ugh i did that last time i visited...and i thought i was in the clear... but the next day he brought it up and made jokes for like 10 minutes about it! boy was my face RED!!!

Well I think giving up my whole structure is going to be a big sacrafice. I've lived alone with my girls for 9 years so I'll have to:

1) think about cooking for an extra, more hungry person

2) not be sitting on the couch doing nothing at night anymore

3) not rip one when ever I want to anymore or burp the alphabet after a big diet coke

Stuff like that.

Actually, I WISH that Hicham would NOT rip ANY in front of me. He's awful!!! ROTTEN!!!! He claims that he smells like jasmine....I beg to differ!!!!

I dunno how I missed this thread the first time around but glad I found it this time! Too funny !!! Mine is slowly learning that in America, where we drink soda like its going out of style soon, burping is like second nature. I've caught him belching a few times when he thought I wasn't within earshot. Oh, and the staring stunned after waking yourself up due to flatulence, yeah, I've been there....silently praying he was asleep and didn't hear it and wondering if it was really as loud as I heard it to be.....

Ohhhhhh myyyyyyy gooooooodness have things changed for us since he arrived....We had discussed the dog being in the house before he got here....he was totally fine with it until after he arrived...BIG ISSUE TO DEAL WITH.....The cooking, we covered before his arrival....TOTALLY not the way we expected it to be.....The cleaning of the house...He didn't understand how busy the life here was and how tired it makes u so he used to get really mad that the house wasn't spottless. Now that we're in Houston and have NO LIFE WHATSOEVER, coz we're a zillion times busier than we ever thought about being in Missouri, He now realizes that he's too tired to do anything and barely wants to move - let alone- clean. Now he's starting to understand what I've been trying to tell him all along...

Have I changed anything, sure.

We eat more veggies - that is only more healthy

I try to be a tad more conservative with what I wear. Not coz I have to, but just to respect his feelings and protectiveness of his wife. I didn't wear revealing stuff before he got here but now I am just a little bit more cautious about it.

I try to keep a cleaner house than I did before he got here - again not bad- what's wrong with living cleaner and healthier

I did get rid of the dog coz it became too much of an ordeal between us and we were moving out of town anyway and couldn't afford to bring her. I miss her very much

I buy wayyyyyyy more pita bread than american bread

We take our shoes off just inside the door - also more clean

We have issues in the way my son keeps his room- I say its his room, leave him alone and he says its his room, but its in our house, therefore it should be clean as the rest of the home.

I try to keep all gasseous functions (both upper and lower) to a minimum and preferrably out of earshot of others. - more respectful- whats wrong with that?? - hehe we still have our times though, when my son and I are at home alone, we have contests!!!

we don't watch near the tv we did before

I'm sure there is more but I think I've shared enough for now lol!!!

amal

[Dr. A ♥ O 203]

I was reading this article in a magazine while waiting at the doctor's office. It was called the fish test. It was given to both men and women. It gives you a scenario. Say you're at home, making some fish on the stove for you and your SO. When you go to take the fish out of the pan, one of filets starts to crumble apart, so that it's broken into several unattractive pieces. You proceed to put the fish on the plates, as well as the rice and vegetables. When you go to the dinner table to set out the plates, which fish piece to you give to your SO, the nice looking one, or the unattractive one?

Well, during the study (and this happened to me too), most of the women already knew where the scenario was going by the time it said "one of the filets starts to crumble apart" However, most of the men did not. And the men in the study also were shown to not realize that their wives were making such daily "sacrifices." The article also talked about how women tend to look for these little ways to scarfice, as a way to show their love, but men tend to see their scarifice in other terms, such as working to support the family.

I'm sure every single one of us would give the good fish to our husbands. And is there anything wrong with that? I don't think so; it's nice to do something for the other person. But the problem is when the other person doesn't even recognize it as a sacrifice. And pretty soon, we're left with nothing of ourselves because we've given it all away.

I've made lots of sacrifices that I didn't think I would have done. And the majority of them are small things that weren't important to me anyway. But I think we should never sacrifice on the big issues. If our SOs can understand the importance of these big issues to our sense of self, then maybe there is something wrong with the relationship.

I learned from growing up in a big family that if I cook it then I let them choose which plate they wants so it's fair, or serve themselves.

I still do that with anyone. If I cut two slices of cake I let the person I'm serving choose which slice they would like. Or if I'm pouring a glasses of drinks I let each person choose which one they want.

[Dr. A ♥ O 203]

Things to give up.

We've had this talk and many more. He gave up smoking I gave up alcohol. I offered the "we can do it in moderation" option, but he said a venomus "no". Explaining I wouldn't like him if he became someone else because of drinking that it's black and white.

Among the list:

- farting (which yeah right we're humans and I had all brothers growing up so plsssssssss.)

- pork (which I don't eat much anyways, but he did say I could if I liked just don't serve him any.)

- non-modest clothing (which I don't wear anymore because I'm no longer a twig with T&A. I've grown to accept my woman body & wear age apropriate clothing.)

- being alone with male friends (I try to watch that now even. I understand this because I am the same way. I don't want him alone with female friends.)

- Alcohol (ok it's better for my body and child rearing.)

- Smoking (That one's his. I can't live with a habitual smoker. I am more relaxed though since I went to Egypt and saw how shisha is ingrained in the culture. He can bring it over as long as it's not habitual stinking up the house.)

- Giving up having children (I feel this one is going to make or break us. The debate is still swirling on this one. I've read articles that in Egypt they function by associating their social status on how good a muslim they are. If the father isn't raising the children muslims then his family is looked down upon and scorned. Even so far as people lose jobs, people in stores won't sell products to the families, ect. At first we wanted children and I agreed to raise them islamic in my ignorance to please him thinking I had an understanding of Islam from reading nine books at the library and the Quran. I didn't agree however that the daughters wear the head thing because I know not all muslims do. We even disagree on names for future children. He wants arabic ones and I like western ones. The western ones he's chosen are modern arabic ones with religious context. One day I told him, "I don't know if I want kids." Now he says, "Lets not have kids. If you couldn't have kids I would still want you over all the kids in the world." It's a sore topic because I like to know we have the option when he's saying after marriage "nope". As optimistic as we like to be we may not stay together because the realty is we are having espeically different view points on the kids issues. From raising them here to raising them there, to what to name them, to how to raise them, to what schools they go to. And he doesn't like the idea of going to a marriage counselor about it. I don't know what to do and it's not like I have all the time in the world but at least a few more years. For now we have agreed that once we get through this immigration process, and we've achieved all we want to have a stable life then we'll reconsider the children issue. That gives us at most 5 years time.)

When polling successful (long marriages) married people before I got married I asked what makes it last so long. Among the things mentioned in every group was compatability, and compromise.

Edited September 9, 2007 by OlivianWaleed

[doodlebug 3]

The smoking thing is the one bone of contention we have. It doesn't bother me at all since I used to be a smoker but my kids are wicked antismoke ever since they went through the DARE program at school. He's agreed to only smoke outside but I think even that will bother the kids. Hopefully they'll just get used to it.

[Dr. A ♥ O 203]

The smoking thing is the one bone of contention we have. It doesn't bother me at all since I used to be a smoker but my kids are wicked antismoke ever since they went through the DARE program at school. He's agreed to only smoke outside but I think even that will bother the kids. Hopefully they'll just get used to it.

I hear ya. In Hurghada I busted him smoking one morning. He thought I was still asleep and went into another room to smoke out the window. He pouted and sulked the rest of the day because he felt so guilty. I don't know if he felt guilty for smoking and getting caught or for smoking. That's when I offered the all in moderation option and got the venomus no black and white talk. I think maybe it's a do as I say not as I do thing. He doesn't want to have a wife that drinks but smoking is ok.

When I was back here one time to see what he'd say I told him. I smoked. He replied, "What?"

Then I told him I smoked something funny. His reply was still a casual, "What?", with no harsh lectures to follow.

Then I told him I drank too. To this is reply was, "Who are you?"

His most escalated reaction came to the drinking issue rather than the smoking something funny issue. hmm....

Edited September 9, 2007 by OlivianWaleed

[Heartland 0]

This is me to a T! I am allergic to smoke, it put me in the hospital too many times with pneumonia! My husband will not smoke here he promiced!!! I am thinking about the lazer treatment I hear it works! He tried the patch and is alleric to the glue...lol I heard of champtrex and the welbutrine.... so not sure about those...

the other thing is after working a full day... I dont want to lift a finger at home other then to cook. I want magical powers like mary poppins or the charmed ones. I would love a maid but NOT one who lived with me.

I like to walk around naked, yes my girls are blinded by the sight! But why get dressed in the bathroom when you can walk naked to your bedroom?

I have two teens in the house so I have the fashion police already with me.... "Dear God! MOM, you cant wear that!!!" I also get, mom, are you going thru a mid life thing? Arent you too old to wear that? Mom cover the girls up more... god! My husband is alittle more subtle with things... He use to say, "your going out of the house dressed like that?" I would smile and say , "yep". He would say "noooooooooooooooo"... Ok at times, I would wear stuff I would KNOW make him upset..why? god only knows.. LOL

I made very small changes. I am a family person. My life revolves around my immediate family and he just fit right in the scheme of that. My husbands likes and appreciates me for just who I am.

My husband had to make changes. He quit smoking and drinking almost a year ago. That was my only request so far. I am glad our lifestyles are compatible.

[Dr. A ♥ O 203]

I like to walk around naked, yes my girls are blinded by the sight!

LOL! Love it! I look forward to walking around naked all the time hoping maybe I'll get nookie!