Cultural Differences

[Milenka 0]

OK.... something else I just noticed today. (Well, I noticed a long time ago, but figured I'd share today.) When my wife opens stuff, she rips through the packages or doesn't open them (or close them) in the correct manner, usually renderring them useless as storage containers. For instance; we all know the cereal box tops have the little tabs on them to keep them closed once they're open. Well, she opens them by ripping the whole top off the box, or tearing it down the side or at the corner, etc. If we get a resealable bag of candy or meat or soemthing of that nature, she'll rip through the bag, completely disregarding the "stay fresh seal." Is my wife special? Or is it because there are smaller quantities and less leftovers (and no standard of "covering" food) in Russia that she's not used to doing this sort of thing? Or, is she just messing with me?

And, putting meat in a shopping bag (like the ones your groceries come in) before freezing instead of using freezer paper or a ziplock. Sure, I guess it works, but something about it just doesn't seem all that clean to me. But, I ate the meat in Korea, and it just sat in the sun all day. I guess a "morozelnik packet" is the better option!

I think the "covering" food is unique to the person as Jewel said, since I never saw that. Sometimes I get too impatient and rip something open though

I do the same thing with meat, I guess because I saw my mom doing it. I always thought it was because it seemed silly to her to buy special bags for storing these things, and my mom never saw such things before moving to America.

[Satellite 1]

When my wife opens stuff, she rips through the packages or doesn't open them (or close them) in the correct manner, usually rendering them useless as storage containers.

That's unique to your wife My wife actually opens stuff too slowly to make sure not to destroy the container. It makes birthday present opening a really long and anxious processes.

And, putting meat in a shopping bag (like the ones your groceries come in) before freezing instead of using freezer paper or a ziplock.

I am just like that too. Either I am cheap or the special bag is too small.

The problem in the states is that not speaking any English at 5 years makes it very difficult to keep up in school.

Not really, Slim explains why:

However, when they leave the house, they're bombarded with English only, and that starts to take over.

My brother was this way. And I came here when I was 6. English was not a problem. A struggle at first say six months. But then good to go just like everyone else.

When immersed in a language, or even simply a dialect, for so long humans naturally "adapt" to the new language. Kids adapt faster/easier/far better than adults, but adults do it too. Just look at Madonna. She speaks English now. And, I'd be willing to bet you speak a little differently around/with your S/O than you do your coworkers. Your English has "adapted" to become like their "English" just a bit.

Agree!

I have a great example right in front of my eyes, that proves otherwise - both parents Russian, Russian is spoken at home, the boy is 3 and half, goes to American kindergarten, speaks both Russian and English fluent enough to be understood and to understand when representatives of both cultures try to interact with him. No special effort made.

That's both amazing and great! But my example is my own brother. Only Russian in the home and obviously only English outside. No ethnic kindergarten because that doesn't exist where my parents live.

Result:

He is now 12. Understands everything in both languages. But responds to Russians with a Russian accent or incorrect usage of words / syntax or insertion of English words..

Another Example:

Myself. Came when I was 6. Read and Write like a first grader. But speak fluently in both.

But I marvel at your example. Unfortunately I have run into more children like my examples than like yours.

[russ 1]

Myself. Came when I was 6. Read and Write like a first grader. But speak fluently in both.

But I marvel at your example. Unfortunately I have run into more children like my examples than like yours.

3 year olds do not comprehend the concept of different languages. 2-language 3 year olds that I have me use both languages interchangeably. They do understand both. They also speak using both, and come up with the correct word by trial and error. I haven't seen bilingual children tell the difference between languages until 4-5 years old. I'm sure there are exceptions, but fluent proficiency takes more time. Most 3 year olds can't read or spell anything yet.

Even with my astoundingly poor Russian, I am capable of expressing more abstract concepts than a 3 year old. For the 3 year old to become fluent, this reinforcement needs to exist for considerably more time. I read and write like a first grader, though Sat's speech is certainly orders of magnitude better than mine.

So - I agree. Haven't met any such children. I have met many children that at 6 years old started learning English, and have since forgotten their mother tongue.

Also - by the time kids near their teenage years, they will most likely lose interest in speaking other languages, particularly if both parents are fluent and speak the local language at home. This is probably the biggest challenge.

I would try asking some Swiss/Belgian/Dutch/Danish/Swedish folks (places where speaking a few languages is for the most part normal).

[slim 1,523]

Children need to be considered on an entirely different scale than adults. Their learning curve and usage of a language is amazingly quicker than adults. Russ illustrates why. Adults form thoughts and ideas then "translate" them over to the target language. They know what they want to say in English (or Russian) then translate it to the other language. Children just go with it, forming the words as they form the thought or idea and using "interchangebale" languages to get their point across. For a child to be truly "bilingual" it's much easier than for an adult. Consider it kind of "relearning" language again. As an adult, you know how to communicate already. So, you communicate in your native language by "translating" the words into the target language. Children are still learning to communicate, so they're just "learning" language and how to use it, that's why they fare better in two or more languages.

I saw a very interesting case of language a couple years ago. I was in Korea, taking a Korean language class with an American guy who was ethnically Korean. He was adopted by Americans at age 10 and lived in Hawaii for the rest of his life. He'd nearly forgotton Korean language entirely (adoptive family was white, non-Asian) since he hadn't spoken it for over 25 years. I was "helping" him learn Korean, and he WAS Korean. Several months into the process, he ended up tracking down his birth mother and reuniting with her. They would spend time together on the weekends and he got to meet his extended family. None of them spoke very much English, so he was forced to communicate in Korean with them. This interaction "jogged" his memory, and he actually started to advance in the class. This proved to me that language learned is still inside the head somewhere, it just has to be accessed again, and if not used, will fade when "replaced" by another language.

To relate that story to "our" children, it seems like the most effective way to ensure they're "bilingual" is to use both languages as much as possible with an emphasis on written language because that's the most perishable skill.

I think the bottom line with language is it's not as important to be correct as it is to be understood. And that's what children are trying to do, just be understood. If we can help to "correct" them (and they us!) it's possible to improve two languages simultaneously.

[Nancy2015 2]

This proved to me that language learned is still inside the head somewhere, it just has to be accessed again, and if not used, will fade when "replaced" by another language.

You nailed it The first language is hard-coded into the brain, it can't be completely erased, even if you don't use it at all.

I never speak Russian, except on the phone with my relatives maybe once in two weeks, and I don't even think in Russian any more. Needless to say, I started to find it hard to express my thoughts and ideas in Russian. I used to be a good writer, and now when I try to write something in Russian, it looks like it was written by a ten year old. There are English words that I have no idea how to say in Russian. But it doesn't mean I forgot my language - if I ever move to Russia again, I will become fluent and start using fancy vocabulary in no time, because my native language hasn't gone anywhere. It's just taking a long break

Same rules don't apply to the second, third etc. languages - if you stop using them, you will eventually forget them completely. Unfortunately, it happened to my German

[Thomas-n-Elena 0]

Bathroom door open-I know we are married but I don’t need to see that.

Wanted to sunbathe on the deck and got angry when I said no because she wanted to sunbathe(no suit on) and I told her the neighbors would call the police or worse just watch.

You guys sound like a fun couple I'd be in trouble for posting something so intimate

Yeah I didnt even remember the cosmetics thing, she will sit in front of a window so that she has natural light but wont let me look until she is completely done, I take this as an invitation to try thats when I get the "You act such like the child". We are a fun couple and I dont think its that intimate to mention the bathroom thing, my sister does it too and it freaks me out. Walk around the corner and Oh my god close the f'n door.

[slim 1,523]

Fashion.

Russian women are very "fashionable" and even the gents are more fashion-conscious than the guys here. Most guys in this country wear something because they have to wear it. No shirt, no shoes, no service. They may wear some nice clothes sometimes, but it's usually because they need girls to look at them (trying to pick up chicks) or because a girl is making them wear something nicer than a T-shirt and pair of sweats ("If you're going out with me, you better put something nicer than that on!") There are Nancies that like to be hip and trendy, wear a lot of hair gel, etc., but even they are outdone by Russian men.

And the women..... no contest. I've yet to meet a Russian woman that could care less about her appearance. My wife will iron her T-shirt to go running. I asked why, and she told me whenever you're out of the home you must not look like a bum. (Because I always look like a bum.) And if it's "going out", forget about it. The girls here try so hard to look good, then worry all night about who's looking at them, whereas the Russian girls go out "expecting" everyone to look at them. It's expected that men (and sometimes women) will look at them, that's why they must be "fashionable."

I've gotta give 'em credit though, they can pull some stuff off that we can't:

Guys-

Track Suits (EVERY DAY!!!)

Leather from head-to-toe (and not Harley Davidson stuff... I'm talking a leather pair of pants, leather vest, leather hat and some leather cowboy boots!)

A bright orange pair of soccer shorts with a green shirt (etc., etc., etc., with the colors)

Dress shoes with athletic gear (nothing like a DYNAMO jersey with a nice pair of loafers!)

Blue, Green, Red, Orange, etc., socks

Everything tighter than what women wear here

And my personal favorite: The Man Purse (Murse)

Girls-

Heels over 4 inches (ALL NIGHT!!!)

Heels on everything (ALL DAY!!!!)

Clothes that actually fit a woman's curves

Accentuating the "goods" while not looking cheap (Extremely hard for girls here)

Making an $8 outfit look like an $80 outfit

And of course the "process" of looking so good. Hair, make up, accessories (do you really need 12 purses?)

I'm sure the list goes on.

When my wife walks down the street here, of course the guys look at her, that's expected. But what's really cool is even the girls look! (Which then makes them all look at me like "Hmmm. I wonder why she's with him? He must be hung like a... " Then they smile and waive and do the little thumb and pinkie finger "call me" motion.... OK, I just made that part up, but) I don't think they're looking for exactly the same reason the guys are, but they're still seeing something a little different than what we're used to seeing here. FASHION!!!

[CityCat 0]

Fashion.

And my personal favorite: The Man Purse (Murse)

You have to have it in Russia - to carry passport, cash, driver's license, other necessary stuff.

Girls-

Heels over 4 inches (ALL NIGHT!!!)

Heels on everything (ALL DAY!!!!)

Clothes that actually fit a woman's curves

Accentuating the "goods" while not looking cheap (Extremely hard for girls here)

Making an $8 outfit look like an $80 outfit

And of course the "process" of looking so good. Hair, make up, accessories (do you really need 12 purses?)

Hell YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 12 is not even enough!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Making things look pricey and fashionable is a special skill, it's a very useful one too, esp. for husbands, it saves tons of dough.

If God gave you curves why not to show them off?

I'm sure the list goes on.

When my wife walks down the street here, of course the guys look at her, that's expected. But what's really cool is even the girls look! (Which then makes them all look at me like "Hmmm. I wonder why she's with him? He must be hung like a... " Then they smile and waive and do the little thumb and pinkie finger "call me" motion.... OK, I just made that part up, but) I don't think they're looking for exactly the same reason the guys are, but they're still seeing something a little different than what we're used to seeing here. FASHION!!!

Yep, that's tons of fun - when people of both genders come to you on the street and say, "Great Dress!" or "Wow! Love your hair!" or"Gee, you are so beautiful!" I love the fact that I am different and enjoy every minute of it!

The movie "Legally Blonde" is sort of about me - I actually wear cosmetics and heels and nice dresses to the university while everybody else is just changing the T-shirts with the same pair of jeans all year round.

AW just love comfort above all other things, I guess...

So Slim, you are right again. But it's not really about fashion (I personally am not a fashion junkie) it's about the fact that we remember what it means to be a REAL woman!

[slim 1,523]

But it's not really about fashion (I personally am not a fashion junkie) it's about the fact that we remember what it means to be a REAL woman!

Exactly why I chose to marry a Russian woman.

[Thomas-n-Elena 0]

Maybe I should be happy that I'm short, overweight and have zits all over my face. After all I'm sure that no man has ever liked me because of my looks.

I am also afraid you are very wrong about that...

I'll support that. You're wrong. A man can find something attractive in every woman. Even if you don't see it, he will!!! Don't kid yourself, no matter what you think you look like, your man is physically attracted to your looks. We're hard-wired to do that, you know.

As for the rest of the stuff, sure, I can see why my wife or other women do what they do. I'm not knocking it one bit. (If I could, I'd do it too!..... for a while, at least.) I'm just saying it's not going to fly here now, and it's not going to fly in our relationship. Like noone stated above, a sugar-daddy is great, but he's not a loving husband.

My wife wasn't like that when we met. She was too young and inexperienced to be "trained" into thinking that way. After six years of it while we were apart.... it comes as second nature now. An "expectation" if you will. I've met plenty of girls like this, and they don't appeal to me at all. I was unaware she had become like this until she was here, and it really wasn't that bad until recently. Previously, she was the nice, innocent, shy young girl that I was dating back in 2000. Now, she's the woman that gets everything she wants because she's that attractive. Or, at least that's what's in her head.

She is being a good wife, and I believe it's because she knows it's a better deal in the long-term (whether that's emotionally or monetarily remains to be seen!) but it's so hard for her to give up this mentality that everyone should be kissing her @$$ because she's so attractive.

To me, that's a horrible attitude, and there's no way I would have a serious relationship with someone that thought that way. But, I can see, it's not so much that this is how she really feels, as it is what she's grown accustomed to. I think over time, she'll develop a more sensible (humble pie, anyone?) approach to interaction with, and expectations of, the men around her. Including me!

Two things in response:

Beauty is only skin deep but ugly goes straight to the bone, I cant remember which comedian said it but an ugly person(not so much physical as personality) doesnt matter what they look like.

They say beauty is in the eye of the beholder, have you ever seen a beholder they are ugly, Jonathan Winters in Davis Rules

[Thomas-n-Elena 0]

She is being a good wife, and I believe it's because she knows it's a better deal in the long-term (whether that's emotionally or monetarily remains to be seen!) but it's so hard for her to give up this mentality that everyone should be kissing her @$$ because she's so attractive.

I think for the most part everyone wants to feel extra special and women use the tools they are given, its no different then men trying to intimidate through physical size or intelligence. I believe most women try to take advantage of their youthful appearance while they can. Women in the US do the same thing go to almost any bar in any city and you will find them, Media glorifies it as female empowerment(Sex and the city), truth is women have always had the power they just let men play with it occasionally so we can have wars and stuff.

[Thomas-n-Elena 0]

And, putting meat in a shopping bag (like the ones your groceries come in) before freezing instead of using freezer paper or a ziplock. Sure, I guess it works, but something about it just doesn't seem all that clean to me. But, I ate the meat in Korea, and it just sat in the sun all day. I guess a "morozelnik packet" is the better option!

I have done this ever since I was young, my family makes homemade Kielbasa every year, I have the same paperbag in my freezer for the past 10 years, it even moved with me when I bought my house so I dont find this strange at all.

[mendeleev 68]

Let's go (back) to money for a bit.

My (Russian) wife, who is still in Russia, worries that I will turn out to be "greedy". This word means something rather different in Russian than in English and I don't quite get it. I've been pretty generous with her, and she can acknowledge this, but also can with justification point to a couple instances where generosity wasn't perfect and worries that these hint at a true tendency that will become manifest later, when she is here and more dependent on me.

Then, on the other side of the coin, she tells me that she it is very difficult for her to ask for money or for specific things, because it feels humiliating for her. ("Would you like to have to ask for money from your mother", she asks? She doesn't seem to get my understanding that in a normal marriage, "yours" and "mine" quickly fades away to "ours". So, it looks like I'm going to have a real puzzle set in front of me, as we get used to living with each other in the USA.

So, what is this Russian conception of "greedy"? I hear it from other Russians, and have heard that American are considered to be a particularly greedy people. All this puzzles me -- so, please, let's have comments, especially from the Russian side of this string.

[Blues Fairy 0]

My (Russian) wife, who is still in Russia, worries that I will turn out to be "greedy".

So, what is this Russian conception of "greedy"? I hear it from other Russians, and have heard that American are considered to be a particularly greedy people. All this puzzles me -- so, please, let's have comments, especially from the Russian side of this string.

I can conjecture that the difference stems from the Russian concept of true generosity. It's historically considered good and generous to sacrifice one's own interest in favor of those of your friends' or loved ones'. Collective over individual, money is nothing friendship is everything, etc etc. Thus a Russian who holds such selflessness in high esteem could take offense from your simply minding your own financial interest. E.g. going "Dutch" in a restaurant instead of picking up the check.

Not sure what exactly your wife means by "greedy" but it could also have something to do with the things I explained a few posts earlier - regarding the "value" of a woman's time and the "payment" she expects for it - not literally of course. For traditional Russian gals, 100% equality in marriage is often a highly questionable concept.

Edited June 28, 2007 by Blues Fairy

[dmhweb 0]

Let's go (back) to money for a bit.

My (Russian) wife, who is still in Russia, worries that I will turn out to be "greedy". This word means something rather different in Russian than in English and I don't quite get it. I've been pretty generous with her, and she can acknowledge this, but also can with justification point to a couple instances where generosity wasn't perfect and worries that these hint at a true tendency that will become manifest later, when she is here and more dependent on me.

Then, on the other side of the coin, she tells me that she it is very difficult for her to ask for money or for specific things, because it feels humiliating for her. ("Would you like to have to ask for money from your mother", she asks? She doesn't seem to get my understanding that in a normal marriage, "yours" and "mine" quickly fades away to "ours". So, it looks like I'm going to have a real puzzle set in front of me, as we get used to living with each other in the USA.

So, what is this Russian conception of "greedy"? I hear it from other Russians, and have heard that American are considered to be a particularly greedy people. All this puzzles me -- so, please, let's have comments, especially from the Russian side of this string.

I think some of this "greed" is based on "have" and "have not". In the the West we "have" and our culture is more focused on immediate gratification. We are so used to "having" that we really don't know what it's like to "have not". I think, to a lot of Russian's this "having" is equal to "greed" but to us it's simply every day life (we don't see it as greed).