IS IT EVER HOPELESS????

[Sofiyya 1,687]

I won't cry. What evidence does anyone have that the MENA consulates deny petitions based on one principle element over another? If it is just because of what you hear here, you are operating on skewed info.

Edited May 6, 2007 by Green-eyed girl

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Recently, I was assisting two couples whose petitions were returned. One had significant differences - age, culture, religion, ethnicity, language, and more. The other were very similar, shared a language, ethnicity, age, religion. How is one to tell me that there is a common denominator between why they were not given visas?

[Alex+R 0]

I wonder if the petitioner being significantly uglier than the beneficiary is a red flag...

[babybunny 2]

I wonder if the petitioner being significantly uglier than the beneficiary is a red flag...

you bet it is..

[tnh9479 1]

I think everyone agrees that it is the TOTALITY of what the relationship is between two people that speaks volumes. I feel that what lots of people have been trying to say is to take an objective step back. Look at your circumstances like a CO might.

[babybunny 2]

Recently, I was assisting two couples whose petitions were returned. One had significant differences - age, culture, religion, ethnicity, language, and more. The other were very similar, shared a language, ethnicity, age, religion. How is one to tell me that there is a common denominator between why they were not given visas?

maybe in that case. they were promised or arranged by their cousin that has been deported for fraud.

thats my guess.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

I wonder if the petitioner being significantly uglier than the beneficiary is a red flag...

you bet it is..

You two!

Recently, I was assisting two couples whose petitions were returned. One had significant differences - age, culture, religion, ethnicity, language, and more. The other were very similar, shared a language, ethnicity, age, religion. How is one to tell me that there is a common denominator between why they were not given visas?

maybe in that case. they were promised or arranged by their cousin that has been deported for fraud.

thats my guess.

Eh, we still donno.

[babybunny 2]

I think everyone agrees that it is the TOTALITY of what the relationship is between two people that speaks volumes. I feel that what lots of people have been trying to say is to take an objective step back. Look at your circumstances like a CO might.

I agree.

if you just met on some website called " marry me now . com ". his id would be " I need a visa now " . and you decided to marry after knowing each other 2 days. then you haul azz to meet your fiancee/fiance and file on day 5. that would be a problem. becuase, how can you know them? granted a whole lotta love can blossom in 5 days.

I am playing.

wait maybe there is an element of truth in this.

[mybackpages 0]

Timing in these relationships is a BIG factor in returned cases out of Casa. As are holes in the stories.

[babybunny 2]

does morocco have ugly dudes? I thought the men there were very handsome..

so there goes the ugly theory.

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

We may have a cross section of ethnicities here, but as you yourselves maintain, and your husband proves, those ethnicities can still be white.

I'm not even sure what you're trying to say here.

I'm not interested in inciting a race war. My point is to say, counter to the "evidence" citing on MENA, that what is reported here is in no way empirical evidence of what causes rejection in the MENA consulates. We are a mere sliver of what happens there with family based visas, so any aprehension about weighing ALL applicable elements of one's relationship with filing for a visa is not beneficial to the board.

I won't cry. What evidence does anyone have that the MENA consulates deny petitions based on one principle element over another? If it is just because of what you hear here, you are operating on skewed info.

You keep asserting that ME/NA forum results are somehow "skewed" away from the "norm." Well perhaps -- this is certainly possible. But you haven't offered anything else to back up your assertion. Please -- if you have some additional data that indicates another trend, I am sure it would be very helpful (and encouraging) to others processing through Casa.

We have now seen dozens and dozens of cases that processed through Morocco, including from all age/ethnic/religious groups. We know that some ME/NA couples were questioned about religious differences. We know that some cases sent back specifically citing language difficulties, or the couple not knowing each other long enough. We know that some couples were questioned long and hard over relations between the U.S. family and the foreign family. And time and again, we have seen couples who were extensively questioned about their age difference.

But what we have NOT heard from anyone is that they were questioned about Arabs marrying non-Arabs.

Now the collective experiences of the ME/NA board may not be something that you want to consider as a valid concern -- that's your choice -- but it's what we have to work with here. If you're not interested in considering the experience of others here who have "been there/done that" as relative to the issues being discussed -- well, no one can force you to.

But I still wish you good luck !

Timing in these relationships is a BIG factor in returned cases out of Casa. As are holes in the stories.

Yeppers.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

We may have a cross section of ethnicities here, but as you yourselves maintain, and your husband proves, those ethnicities can still be white.

I'm not even sure what you're trying to say here.

I'm not interested in inciting a race war. My point is to say, counter to the "evidence" citing on MENA, that what is reported here is in no way empirical evidence of what causes rejection in the MENA consulates. We are a mere sliver of what happens there with family based visas, so any aprehension about weighing ALL applicable elements of one's relationship with filing for a visa is not beneficial to the board.

I won't cry. What evidence does anyone have that the MENA consulates deny petitions based on one principle element over another? If it is just because of what you hear here, you are operating on skewed info.

You keep asserting that ME/NA forum results are somehow "skewed" away from the "norm." Well perhaps -- this is certainly possible. But you haven't offered anything else to back up your assertion. Please -- if you have some additional data that indicates another trend, I am sure it would be very helpful (and encouraging) to others processing through Casa.

We have now seen dozens and dozens of cases that processed through Morocco, including from all age/ethnic/religious groups. We know that some ME/NA couples were questioned about religious differences. We know that some cases sent back specifically citing language difficulties, or the couple not knowing each other long enough. We know that some couples were questioned long and hard over relations between the U.S. family and the foreign family. And time and again, we have seen couples who were extensively questioned about their age difference.

But what we have NOT heard from anyone is that they were questioned about Arabs marrying non-Arabs.

Now the collective experiences of the ME/NA board may not be something that you want to consider as a valid concern -- that's your choice -- but it's what we have to work with here. If you're not interested in considering the experience of others here who have "been there/done that" as relative to the issues being discussed -- well, no one can force you to.

But I still wish you good luck !

Timing in these relationships is a BIG factor in returned cases out of Casa. As are holes in the stories.

Yeppers.

I'm saying that a variety of ethnicities can still all be white.

There has been nothing offered to back up the assertion that the MENA board doesn't skew from the norm. This is a voluntary board where people come and go and no stats or measurments are taken as to how they relate to the totality of those going thru MENA consulates. Why then should we assume we represent a norm of any sort, and use that assumption to favor one red flag over another as the one that is most likely to cause your petition to be denied? The basis of denials can be as varied as the couples involved, so it is best to base it on the couple and not some subjective bias toward or away from any one factor.

Arabs marrying non-Arabs is ONLY ONE element of the list I presented. It is as valid a red flag as older women marrying younger men because NEITHER is a MENA norm. It is not the be all and end all of that list. I respectfully request that it neither be taken as the determining factor, nor rejected as not a factor at all. You cannot show that it hasn't been. The determining factors of people who have gone thru here are also not the be all and end all of what should be considered. Frankly, after someone here is denied, we spend a lot of time guessing and presenting suppositions as to what went wrong. We cannot even say that the experiences of those who went before provide more than suggestions for what to do. It is by no means a guarantee of a visa. So, as such, it is helpful as a resource, but should not be the only or even best resource in every case.

So, I ask, is there evidence that can be presented to make women who are older than their husbands more anxious than a woman who has nothing in common culturally with her husband, but is closer to him in age? No one can definitively answer this. We only have our best guesses and ur suppositions, not to be presented as empirical evidence.

Edited May 6, 2007 by Green-eyed girl

[Sofiyya 1,687]

It won't let me edit. Thank you, WOM, for your good wishes and I return the same to you!

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

I'm saying that a variety of ethnicities can still all be white.

There has been nothing offered to back up the assertion that the MENA board doesn't skew from the norm. This is a voluntary board where people come and go and no stats or measurments are taken as to how they relate to the totality of those going thru MENA consulates. Why then should we assume we represent a norm of any sort, and use that assumption to favor one red flag over another as the one that is most likely to cause your petition to be denied? The basis of denials can be as varied as the couples involved, so it is best to base it on the couple and not some subjective bias toward or away from any one factor.

Arabs marrying non-Arabs is ONLY ONE element of the list I presented. It is as valid a red flag as older women marrying younger men because NEITHER is a MENA norm. It is not the be all and end all of that list. I respectfully request that it neither be taken as the determining factor, nor rejected as not a factor at all. You cannot show that it hasn't been. The determining factors of people who have gone thru here are also not the be all and end all of what should be considered. Frankly, after someone here is denied, we spend a lot of time guessing and presenting suppositions as to what went wrong. We cannot even say that the experiences of those who went before provide more than suggestions for what to do. It is by no means a guarantee of a visa. So, as such, it is helpful as a resource, but should not be the only or even best resource in every case.

So, I ask, is there evidence that can be presented to make women who are older than their husbands more anxious than a woman who has nothing in common culturally with her husband, but is closer to him in age? No one can definitively answer this. We only have our best guesses and ur suppositions, not to be presented as empirical evidence.

The burden of proof is on the disputer. (That's you.)

Anywayyyyyyyyy back to the topic:

Consulates DO ask about age gaps. In fact they ask often, and they ask extensively.

Consulates DO ask about religious differences.

Consulates DO ask about how a couple met, and how long they knew each other before deciding to marry.

Consulates DO want to ascertain that couples can communicate in a common language.

Consulates ARE looking for indications of fraud.

Consulates use all of the above, and more, to help them come to a conclusion as to whether there is a fraudulent relationship. Do they ever make mistakes ? I am sure they do. Are they trained to do their specific job, much better than the average laymen ? Most often, yes.

So Twila's advice to "think like a Consular officer" is really some of the best advice you can get. The CO's are responsible for putting together the "big picture." If your age difference is balanced by other more positive factors, you'll probably be just fine. But if a big age difference is compounded with other factors that the Consulate finds "suspicious," well.... you're likely in for a rough ride.

Mainly, they're looking at your SO for signs that he (or she) is lying about something. They will question intensively about "red flag" issues and watch his/her response. If he/she seems uncomfortable or unable to answer in a reasonable manner, or the response is "unusual" in any way, well that's what they're looking for.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

There's nothing more circular about my logic than there is something sensible about denying factors that don't fit a bias on this board. No one has ever said that none of the factors you listed don't exist. In fact, they are part of a "duh" factor. It's about time we speak of some that aren't often discussed.

Unaddressed is the fact that we don't often know why people are rejected. Many are rejected with NO questioning about many of those issues. Some are, and approved. There basically is no set way to determine what works. It'####### and miss; even addressing all your red flags in your initial petition means nothing if they never ask you about them, and still reject you anyway. That is also what we see here. Mostly, what we can do is suggest and offer support if you don't make the cut, and congrats if you do.

Edited May 6, 2007 by Green-eyed girl