Canadian Citizen removed with 5 year ban - unique situation

[Teddy B 17,251]

If I don't know the laws of your country since I am not from your country, then how am I supposed to know what they are unless someone informs me? No, not every office has IT certificates on the wall! I'm an honest person. If I truly wanted to intentionally enter the US for work and lie about it, I wouldn't of brought my original IT certifications in their original frames!!! I would have either not bring them at all or shipped them separately!!!

I'm not going to judge the right or wrong of what happened at the border, but I will say that this part here was probably a huge red flag. In my opinion anyone that brings original work certificates in frames with them is looking to set up shop wherever they are going. You may not see it that way, but I would and it's obvious the CBP did.

Myself, having been sent to secondary inspection and interrogated by Canadian border patrol authorities twice, I can tell you that they are not going to win any prizes for being cordial. My wife was also detained and denied entry into the US at one time we were attempting to enter the US together, so I've witnessed it both ways. Could they have been nicer on either side of the border, sure, but I didn't take it personally. They have a job to do and being nice doesn't necessarily fit into their job description.

[webman 5]

I have already begun the process with an immigration lawyer. I understand that I broke a law that I was unaware of.

If I didn't bring my certificates I would have most likely been let through and sent on my way. I didn't have any suits or dress clothes with me since I wasn't going to meet clients, look for a job or work for money. So no one would of been the wiser.

But, because I did bring them I got caught. I'm not mad or upset that I got caught. I'm glad that I am more educated and understand the law now. I was just hoping that after CBP understood that my intent wasn't malicious, and I now understood their laws that although I would have not been let in the country that day, that maybe they would have told me to come back another time with the correct visa and given me a chance to redeem myself instead of banning me for 5 years and putting me though a terrible scenario.

[loladolly 51]

A family member also can't come to the US to help take care of a baby, that takes away a possible job for a babysitter. Does seem a bit silly for some instances but that's the law.

Lmao, this is where they got it all wrong, when my parents come, they help me with my son, my mother is coming in july to help me since i am having a baby. Even if they didn't let her in for that reason i would never hire a babysitter instead since i have my in laws who do that also for free (or illegally paid when i give 20bucks to my 16 year old brother in law for watching my son). So they definitely have to review their definition of helping/illegal work.

Well i'll tell my mom to say that she is just visiting and say no if they ask her if she plans on babysitting while my husband and I go out for dinner on our marriage anniversary.... pathetic

[Caryh 5,206]

Lmao, this is where they got it all wrong, when my parents come, they help me with my son, my mother is coming in july to help me since i am having a baby. Even if they didn't let her in for that reason i would never hire a babysitter instead since i have my in laws who do that also for free (or illegally paid when i give 20bucks to my 16 year old brother in law for watching my son). So they definitely have to review their definition of helping/illegal work.

Well i'll tell my mom to say that she is just visiting and say no if they ask her if she plans on babysitting while my husband and I go out for dinner on our marriage anniversary.... pathetic

more than one visitor has been turned away at the border when they stated they've come to help a daughter or son look after an expectant baby.

[loladolly 51]

more than one visitor has been turned away at the border when they stated they've come to help a daughter or son look after an expectant baby.

good, in that case she'll just say she is coming on a vacation (which is also true) and won't say that i am having a baby... Plus she is from a VWP country so not really looked with scrutiny to begin with, they usually ask her how long she plans on staying and tell her to enjoy her trip !

really pathetic when a grandmother cannot visit her expecting daughter... they probably prefer when i pay my brother in law illegally since there is no way i would ever pay for daycare in this country... too expensive

[ColGil 126]

I've been caught out in this area too, and it was because of my naivety. I'll give a bit of background which will support JE57's quote below. I am employed as a contractor for a US company/division/office/employer. My employer hasn't been asked for this (yet) but has evidence that she tried to recruit within the states but there were no suitable candidates. She has kept this evidence because that is the only reason a US employer should be hiring foreign work. This applies to contracted work where the employee is living and paid in the foreign currency, or if a work visa is requested for the employee to work in the states.

Now, I did look up the rules on working in the states for free on an esta and training was mentioned. My role in my job is to write and maintain training packages, and my boss travels to facilitate the training. I was in the states visiting my spouse and my boss was caught up with a family matter so asked if I would travel to facilitate a 1 week training course which I wrote. I agree'd since she wasn't paying me anything other than the standard wage as part of my contract, I didn't see the issue as if I'd been in the UK at the time I could have conducted the training session remotely (skype/webex etc). What I didn't take into account was that training was referring to attending training. But I delivered a training course, not attended one.

Anyway, cut to my next visit to the states. I'm taken into secondary inspection and they asked why I had travel receipts with me billed to an employer in America. I said that they needed someone to deliver the training and because I wrote the training under my UK contract, and was still employed on my UK contract that I'd offered to do the training course. It was explained to me that even although that is my job, I wasn't authorized to complete this work in the states. The fact that it was face to face and an american employee wans't available, in the eyes of the government they could have gone to a temp agency and paid a USC to do a couple of weeks work.

Basically, even although you were doing the work for free (for a friend) if you weren't available to help out, your friend would have most likely had to pay someone (a USC) for services. Even if the USC offered to do it for free, it's something they can put on their resume, and it would have been their credentials on the wall (a networking opportunity perhaps). If ongoing services are required, the USC get's this work.

Anyway, I know you didn't intend to take work from a USC, I made the same naive mistake but got off with just a warning, told to be careful when it comes to employment and basically to keep myself on the right side of the immigration "law" I should refrain from working at all when in the states. I agree your punishment was severe, they could have done a bit of scare tactics, but I think the difference between your situation and mine is I was travelling as a tourist and an opportunity to help my current employer in their locale came up, as opposed to traveling to help out a business being the intention of my visit.

I wish you all the best in the future and hope you can get the situation resolved for you and your friends benefit.

To the OP, You made a mistake by working (free or not) in the USA. Now you are suggesting that you will continue to do work in the USA by continuing to help your friend from your abode in Canada. You're in IT so you have the ability to do work from abroad. BUT... before you get your friend's new business in trouble be sure that the businesses that hire him as a contractor for which you will render services from abroad are not going to get in trouble for doing so. I don't know the laws in this area but it would pay for your friend to do some research. Perhaps even people here know if you rendering services as part of a contract agreement between a US company and your USC friend would be allowed. And by rendering services I mean rather you get paid for it or not. What is the point of displaying your certificates in his store if you a citizen from Canada can not legally provide services. My point, you claim ignorance of the law which got you into this situation in the first place.. CBP has your name and your friend's name and knows your intent.. Don't allow yourself to fall afoul future laws that would embroil your friend's new business.

Edited June 12, 2014 by ColGil

[Jawaree 717]

Get an atty and fix this because it can be fixed...a good waiver atty can sort it out

and also find out Y was your certificates kept....they were just doing their

jobs ... however.some ppl let a little power get to their heads & act as if the thing is

personal, and this can happen on both sides of the border also the southern

border

[Caryh 5,206]

good, in that case she'll just say she is coming on a vacation (which is also true) and won't say that i am having a baby... Plus she is from a VWP country so not really looked with scrutiny to begin with, they usually ask her how long she plans on staying and tell her to enjoy her trip !

really pathetic when a grandmother cannot visit her expecting daughter... they probably prefer when i pay my brother in law illegally since there is no way i would ever pay for daycare in this country... too expensive

I just wanted to warn you. It happens quite regularly with visitor visas of soon to be grandmothers from my wife's country. The proud soon to be grandmother gushes about the soon to be born grandchild and taking care of her daughter and the baby and suddenly they're wondering why they got turned away. CBP are not there to judge, they're there to enforce the rules to the letter of the law. Answer to the reason for the visit should be a vacation and visiting with family. No mentioning of a birth. No one's going to come breaking down doors looking for visitor visa holders taking care of a newborn, but you don't rub that in the face of CBP when asking for entry.

[Rob & Monika 87]

I think the big difference between helping renovate someones house, mowing a friends yard, and helping someone setup a business...is the word "business". That is the clear difference right there. This was a "business" the work was being done for. Using that word at the border would be a major red flag. The average friend might need the lawn mowed, might need help moving, or even help renovating. The average friend does not need major IT work done.

[twin810s 23]

Actually I know someone who was visiting friends in Canada from the UK. They were going to help with a few renovations in their home, CBP questioned the guy and he told them just that, no payment of any of the sorts. He was told that no matter what helping is still considered work if he wants to visit he must stick to visiting no helping or he will not be let back in.

I used to have a P2 Artist visa and, when crossing to play a show one night, I had a friend in my car with me who just wanted to drink some beer and watch my band play. I was almost denied entry for just having him with me, even though I had a valid visa permitting me to perform in the US. The issue came down to exactly what's being talked about here: the difference between 'volunteering' or 'helping out', and 'working illegally'. The CBP officer, after questioning us for some time regarding his 'intentions' in accompanying myself to the show, said "Just so you know, you are not allowed to help in ANY WAY; if you so much as touch a guitar pick or wrap a single cable - paid or not, that's working. You would need to obtain a visa of your own, or be subject to a 5-year ban." And that was pre-9/11 when it was a breeze to cross. I'm sure we would have been denied entry in today's climate...

[loladolly 51]

I just wanted to warn you. It happens quite regularly with visitor visas of soon to be grandmothers from my wife's country. The proud soon to be grandmother gushes about the soon to be born grandchild and taking care of her daughter and the baby and suddenly they're wondering why they got turned away. CBP are not there to judge, they're there to enforce the rules to the letter of the law. Answer to the reason for the visit should be a vacation and visiting with family. No mentioning of a birth. No one's going to come breaking down doors looking for visitor visa holders taking care of a newborn, but you don't rub that in the face of CBP when asking for entry.

That is really sad, even though i believe that people from your wife's country are scrutinized a lot more than my parents from France, i am still going to tell my mom not to talk about me just having a baby. Just in case...

I used to have a P2 Artist visa and, when crossing to play a show one night, I had a friend in my car with me who just wanted to drink some beer and watch my band play. I was almost denied entry for just having him with me, even though I had a valid visa permitting me to perform in the US. The issue came down to exactly what's being talked about here: the difference between 'volunteering' or 'helping out', and 'working illegally'. The CBP officer, after questioning us for some time regarding his 'intentions' in accompanying myself to the show, said "Just so you know, you are not allowed to help in ANY WAY; if you so much as touch a guitar pick or wrap a single cable - paid or not, that's working. You would need to obtain a visa of your own, or be subject to a 5-year ban." And that was pre-9/11 when it was a breeze to cross. I'm sure we would have been denied entry in today's climate...

haha so visitors should just have their a.... sitting on a chair the whole stay and enjoy beer and food.

[Caryh 5,206]

That is really sad, even though i believe that people from your wife's country are scrutinized a lot more than my parents from France, i am still going to tell my mom not to talk about me just having a baby. Just in case...

I don't think Filipinos are scrutinized any harder at the border than any other visitor actually. The heavy scrutinization happens at the embassy in getting the visa in the first place. Its the spilling of the beans about doing what is considered work in the USA that gets them in trouble. In their own country, and I'd say in many other countries to, coming to help out like this is a perfectly normal occurrence. Its crossing the international border to do it that makes it an issue.

[kehills 217]

I was in NC and helped him with his contract at the police dept. I set up and designed their network and security.

In other words, you took a job away from a US citizen. You worked on a contract at the police department, and you did something your friend could not do, and would presumably have to hire someone else for if you hadn't "volunteered."

It's not that hard to see why you were denied, just with this.

(And for the record, yes, Canadian border patrol can be just as harsh. I have a nice story of an eight-hour delay that was based solely on sexist assumptions by the guards. And as someone who has traveled to a lot of different countries, I do, as a matter of fact, make sure I know the laws, especially for entry, before trying to enter the country. I find it makes things so much easier!)

[Jamnan_n_Steve 17]

I often point to my (Thai) long-stay non-immigrant visa's not-valid-for-work stamp and decline to do the dishes. Just joking, but many (maybe most) countries restrict tourists to visiting and spending foreign earned money. My wife and I hire local workers at above market wages to work around the house and garden who snicker about my efforts to help with the job at hand but would never think about reporting me for visa violation. That said many foreigners work (at pitiful but better than local wages) and do regular border runs to maintain their tourist visa status. My rule of thumb is that if my wife would/could employ a local we go down that path while if she would do the work herself I feel free to help.

[webman 5]

I did the PD work pro-bono 2.5 years ago. The PD and my friend had multiple requests out looking for someone to do the work. After 3 months they weren't able to find anyone who could do it for them. Lots of people can support a network but very few can design one and set it up. This is one of my specialties. I'm also a certified instructor so I was able to teach the people at the PD how to use the infrastructure. So, now I guess you'll all say that I took away a few jobs there.

Knowing what I know now, I would have never done it without a work visa. The only compensation I got was a lift to and from the airport and some meals my friend's wife made while I was there.

In other words, you took a job away from a US citizen. You worked on a contract at the police department, and you did something your friend could not do, and would presumably have to hire someone else for if you hadn't "volunteered."

It's not that hard to see why you were denied, just with this.

(And for the record, yes, Canadian border patrol can be just as harsh. I have a nice story of an eight-hour delay that was based solely on sexist assumptions by the guards. And as someone who has traveled to a lot of different countries, I do, as a matter of fact, make sure I know the laws, especially for entry, before trying to enter the country. I find it makes things so much easier!)