Consulate wants something that is impossible

[Boiler 45,402]

3 pages this is the 45th reply, or he could have checked to see what was needed!

Oops 46th.

[Me_Theo 25]

Sukie, the problem here is not whether or not he is dead. The problem is that according to family law there, she is free and able to marry because he is merely assumed dead by virtue of no contact for 4 years, no known whereabouts, and being absent and failing to respond to any and all of those court proceedings. It was all done in accordance with family law and legal and binding. The problem is that the consulate, for some reason, cannot see what's in front of her.

Dear Mike , this kind document your fiance has, was ok if her lost husband was filipino or he was dead in Philippine.

and she wanted to marry with another Filipino man, in their country.

But remember her lost husband is US C and she is going to marry with another USC,then she should prove the dead by USA law.

For US embassy is very important to figure out he is dead or no.

Then you try to focus to solve this part of problem,

Try to Prove he is dead. also give his dead document to US embassy in Philippine.

If i was you. I don't take a lawyer in thier country. That is a wasting a money any way ........ , Just try to find his family or his dead doucment in USA.

If you found . that is OKAY

If you didn't find ,Don't make more problem for your future.

Edited January 26, 2014 by Me_Theo

[NikLR 13,227]

3 pages this is the 45th reply, or he could have checked to see what was needed!

Oops 46th.

He's not sure of the other pages his fiancee needed to provide either so....... /letting people do whatever floats their boat.

[Boiler 45,402]

He's not sure of the other pages his fiancee needed to provide either so....... /letting people do whatever floats their boat.

True, but then they start going of about the Consulate how long evrery thing takes etc etc.

Dear Mike , this kind document your fiance has, was ok if her lost husband was filipino or he was dead in Philippine.

and she wanted to marry with another Filipino man, in their country.

But remember her lost husband is US C and she is going to marry with another USC,then she should prove the dead by USA law.

For US embassy is very important to figure out he is dead or no.

Then you try to focus to solve this part of problem,

Try to Prove he is dead. also give his dead document to US embassy in Philippine.

If i was you. I don't take a lawyer in thier country. That is a wasting a money any way ........ , Just try to find his family or his dead doucment in USA.

If you found . that is OKAY

If you didn't find ,Don't search more problem for your future.

The problem is that the chances are he is not dead, if he had been dead none of this would have been needed, they would just have obtained a copy of the Death Certificate.

[mikede1025 2]

Here is a copy and paste taken directly off of the embassy's website.

"A common basis for refusal is a prior marriage for the beneficiary or the petitioner that has not been legally terminated. There is no divorce in the Philippines. A consular officer will only accept a death certificate or a court ruling of annulment or of presumptive death as evidence that a Filipino marriage has been terminated. A U.S. citizen may terminate a Filipino marriage through a U.S. divorce."

It appears that what they say they will accept as evidence and what they actually will accept as evidence are two different things.

[Me_Theo 25]

Here is a copy and paste taken directly off of the embassy's website.

"A common basis for refusal is a prior marriage for the beneficiary or the petitioner that has not been legally terminated. There is no divorce in the Philippines. A consular officer will only accept a death certificate or a court ruling of annulment or of presumptive death as evidence that a Filipino marriage has been terminated. A U.S. citizen may terminate a Filipino marriage through a U.S. divorce."

It appears that what they say they will accept as evidence and what they actually will accept as evidence are two different things.

If you are sure 100% about your fiance words. call your congressman , take his/her help.

Edited January 26, 2014 by Me_Theo

[Boiler 45,402]

Presumption of Death and Remarriage:

Many people ask us: I have not heard from my spouse in 7 years, can I remarry?
The answer is no. No matter how long spouses have been separated 2, 4, 7, 15 years or more, one can not remarry without the courts having issued a:
• Decree of Annulment or Nullity
• Judicial Decree of Absolute Divorce
• Death Certificate of the Deceased Spouse
Article 41 of The Family Code of the Philippines states:
A marriage contracted by any person during the subsistence of a previous marriage shall be null and void, unless before the celebration of the subsequent marriage, the prior spouse had been absent for four (4) consecutive years and the spouse present had a well-founded belief that the absent spouse was already dead. In case of disappearance, where there is danger of death under the circumstances set forth in the provision of Article 391 of the Civil Code, an absence of only two years shall be sufficient.

Danger of Death pertains to:
• A person who was on board a ship or airplane which has gone missing and who has not been heard of for 2 years
• A person in one or the other branch of the military who has taken part in war or other military operations, and has been missing for 2 years
• A person who has been abducted and there has been no news about them for 2 years
• Or other situations where there is a high chance that death may have occurred within a 2 year period. Presumption of Death should not be used as a work around to be to remarry, as the law provides that if an affidavit of reappearance is recorded, the presumption of death is automatically terminated. If the presumption of death is terminated; any remarriage is immediately voided.

[mikede1025 2]

have you asked the embassy what you can produce instead of the death certificate? Remember you may be dealing with the embassy in the Philippines but it is a United States Embassy. So, I suggest YOU the US Citizen call the embassy and ask them what else you can provide vs the death certificate for someone who isn't actually dead, just presumed dead because he didn't answer any summons so that your fiance could get her annulment?

NLR, thank you. You also appear to understand where I'm at here. This is exactly what I wanted. I wanted to know how or who to contact other than a standard information operator so that I could state my case to someone who has some authority. That's all I want. A method of contact to an authority, not an info operator because they cannot and will not entertain any questions that are specific to any one person.

[RhettVoe 282]

The experts on this matter work in our embassy in Manila....Congressman Slushfund is not an expert on such matters, nor can said representative order the consulate to do anything, such as accept whatever document you think they should....your congressman has zero legal authority over anyone in the State Dept.

[RhettVoe 282]

You should send whatever pieces of filipino paper you have to the visa section, along with a cover letter...however, if you add insults to your request for some sort of review, expect a long long long wait before getting a very generic response....in other words, be nice.

[Boiler 45,402]

Putting aside Consular Non reviewabilty, it is possible for a Lawyer acting on you behalf to submit a request for a review citing the relevant Statues Case Lawyetc.

Certainly something you could discuss with your legal team.

Might be worth getting a Presumption of Death from the US Courts, just a thought.

[RhettVoe 282]

Or, just follow the instructions and/or requests from the embassy....after all.....who are the experts in these matters? The ones who work with this stuff everyday, or some yay-hoo?

[Boiler 45,402]

Consulates do make mistakes, doubt they have in this case, I have certainly seen cases where a Lawyer submission has worked. Not very common.

[Speech33 0]

Presumptive of death of a spouse is applicable in the Philippines.A lot of Filipina before who are married and was petition for k1 in the US who used this route to legally end their marriage.As years goes by US Embassy in Manila is beginning to see this way as a fraud that is why most Filipina goes to this route of ending their marriage actually gets denied or else ask of proof of death certificate.One of the things your fiancée should think of is why going this process when annulment is the most safest way to go.Try to read some stories online about FILIPINAS using presumptive of death as way of telling / presenting the consul during the interview lately ,most of theme are being ask the same thing they ask your fiancée for additional documents to support the presumptive of death court order you present before the consul.And besides you cannot just present a court order during your interview,you need to show the consul your marriage certificate with an annotation on it,stating on the right side of the paper that your fiancée is legally allowed to be married.Court order is not the final process yet ,you need to pass that to NSO for a final annotation on her marriage certificate..Another issue is her spouse is US citizen!there is allot of ways to know here in the US if he is still alive..THat is one of the red flag...wHy go to presumptive way when annulment is the safest way,costly but sure...Presumptive of death is shortcut way which consul anomalies on it.

[Boiler 45,402]

"PRESUMPTIVE DEATH" ANNULMENT COULD RESULT IN PRESUMPTIVE DENIAL OF VISA

By: Michael J. Gurfinkel, Esq.

Dear Attorney Gurfinkel:

I was married several years ago, but my husband went to work abroad, and we really haven't communicated that much since then.

I met and fell in love with an American citizen in the Philippines, and we want to get married. I know that I must get my first marriage annulled before I can marry my American boyfriend, and some of my friends are suggesting that I get an annulment based on "presumptive death" of my husband. Do you think it is a good idea to get a presumptive death annulment, and will I encounter problems at the U.S. Embassy once I marry my boyfriend and am petitioned for an immigrant visa?

Very truly yours,
AS

Dear AS:

A presumptive death annulment is where one spouse effectively "disappears," and the spouse left behind does not have any contact nor has any idea of the whereabouts of that missing spouse for at least 4 years. That surviving spouse must go to court and obtain an annulment based on the presumption that the missing spouse is "dead." However, the U.S. Embassy is concerned or suspicious about presumptive death annulments, because in many cases, the spouse who obtained that annulment knows very well that the "dearly departed" spouse is very much alive. Therefore, the supposed legal basis for the annulment is untrue. In such a case, the presumptive death annulment was improperly obtained, and the U.S. Embassy may not give legal recognition to that annulment for purposes of issuing a U.S. visa based on a subsequent marriage to a different spouse.

I had one case where a Filipina was "caught" by the U.S. Embassy with a bogus presumptive death annulment. Like you, she met a U.S. citizen, whom she wanted to marry. She then went to court and obtained an annulment based on the presumptive death of her first husband, whom she had supposedly not seen in several years.

The problem was, that with a court decree declaring the husband "dead," some relatives thought that this might entitle them to some form of inheritance. Other relatives, knowing that the first husband was very much alive, filed papers in court (including a currently dated, notarized affidavit by the "deceased," and pictures of him), challenging the presumptive death annulment.

The Embassy was somehow able to obtain information and documentation that the deceased first husband was alive. (They may have obtained records from the courthouse, the relatives who challenged the annulment may have written a letter to the Embassy, along with a copy of the affidavits, or the Embassy may have contacted relatives of the "deceased" spouse). Accordingly, the Embassy would not issue the visa to that Filipina based on her marriage to her second husband, because she was still married to the first husband, as he was still alive.

Therefore, if you truly know that your current spouse is alive, you should NOT obtain an annulment based on presumptive death, as the Embassy will investigate.

Instead, if you want to terminate your marriage, you should do so based on valid, proper, legal grounds, so that you will not run into problems if your intention is to marry another spouse (for love) and obtain U.S. immigration benefits through that second marriage.