Consulate wants something that is impossible

[RhettVoe 282]

you have no idea of my background regarding immigration law and visas....it is you who does not understand that the folks working in our embassies overseas are far more conversant with documents, rules and regulations of the host country than you....after all, it's their specialty....would you presume to tell an airline pilot how to fly a 747 because you might have taxied a Cessna once? One does not become a foreign service officer merely by filling out an application...and for some reason you refuse to believe that document fraud is nothing short of rampant in the Philippines....so I applaud the consular section for proceeding carefully....they are going to make sure they are on solid ground, no matter how stupid you think they are....in fact, why don't you go to the American Citizen Services section in Manila and tell them to their face how stupid you think they are....see what happens....

[Boiler 45,402]

Sukie, the problem here is not whether or not he is dead. The problem is that according to family law there, she is free and able to marry because he is merely assumed dead by virtue of no contact for 4 years, no known whereabouts, and being absent and failing to respond to any and all of those court proceedings. It was all done in accordance with family law and legal and binding. The problem is that the consulate, for some reason, cannot see what's in front of her.

What have you done to find him?

[mikede1025 2]

What have you done to find him?

He doesn't need to be found. Someone simply has to understand this court order.

[destiny64 222]

Maybe he disappeared so she couldn't get a divorce That's why the consulate is diligent in asking to produce a death certificate or divorce in order to proceed.

[mikede1025 2]

you have no idea of my background regarding immigration law and visas....it is you who does not understand that the folks working in our embassies overseas are far more conversant with documents, rules and regulations of the host country than you....after all, it's their specialty....would you presume to tell an airline pilot how to fly a 747 because you might have taxied a Cessna once? One does not become a foreign service officer merely by filling out an application...and for some reason you refuse to believe that document fraud is nothing short of rampant in the Philippines....so I applaud the consular section for proceeding carefully....they are going to make sure they are on solid ground, no matter how stupid you think they are....in fact, why don't you go to the American Citizen Services section in Manila and tell them to their face how stupid you think they are....see what happens....

No one said that they think the document is a fraud. They are asking for a death certificate for someone who is not declared dead. Only assumed dead for all intents and purposed of those proceedings. They're not asking for proof that the document is real. They're asking for a death certificate. A non-existing death certificate. It's all legal and binding and in accordance with Section 238 of the Family Code. Please read the document that I posted and tell me exactly what you see it saying. Then after reading it then please tell me how can I possibly obtain a death certificate because it does not declare him to be dead and there should not have to be any proof of death when no death was declared.

[Boiler 45,402]

Maybe he disappeared so she couldn't get a divorce That's why the consulate is diligent in asking to produce a death certificate or divorce in order to proceed.

He could be dead, he could be living, probably the latter, probably living in the same State as the OP.

He could already have divorced her in the US of course playing the same game.

[Boiler 45,402]

Lord Lucan is the obvious example that comes to my mind, yet again I do not know how it works in PI but in the UK a Death Certificate is issued.

[Sukie 1,454]

No one said that they think the document is a fraud. They are asking for a death certificate for someone who is not declared dead. Only assumed dead for all intents and purposed of those proceedings. They're not asking for proof that the document is real. They're asking for a death certificate. A non-existing death certificate. It's all legal and binding and in accordance with Section 238 of the Family Code. Please read the document that I posted and tell me exactly what you see it saying. Then after reading it then please tell me how can I possibly obtain a death certificate because it does not declare him to be dead and there should not have to be any proof of death when no death was declared.

Mike - I'm sorry this is such a hassle for you, especially having to deal with it from so far away. Thanks for your further explanations. It's obvious that many of us want to help, but we are not familiar with Philippines law!

I do think it might be time for either you or your partner to contact an attorney. An attorney familiar with Philippines law may know the best way to address this request from the consulate.

I'm wondering if the real problem is that the US does not recognize an "abandonment" document. I also wonder whether the first marriage took place in the Philippines or in the United States. I think you'd have a better chance if it took place in PI, since the document you have is PI-based. I think a US marriage would require an official annulment or divorce decree.

Does anyone have any Manila US Consulate contact information for Mike and/or his partner? Looks like it will be hard for him to front-up in person.

Sukie

[mikede1025 2]

Mike - I'm sorry this is such a hassle for you, especially having to deal with it from so far away. Thanks for your further explanations. It's obvious that many of us want to help, but we are not familiar with Philippines law!

I do think it might be time for either you or your partner to contact an attorney. An attorney familiar with Philippines law may know the best way to address this request from the consulate.

I'm wondering if the real problem is that the US does not recognize an "abandonment" document. I also wonder whether the first marriage took place in the Philippines or in the United States. I think you'd have a better chance if it took place in PI, since the document you have is PI-based. I think a US marriage would require an official annulment or divorce decree.

Does anyone have any Manila US Consulate contact information for Mike and/or his partner? Looks like it will be hard for him to front-up in person.

Sukie

Thank you, Thank you, Sukie. You understand. This WAS a PI marriage which is why the presumptive death order was able to be accomplished. If it were a US marriage then, Yes, there would have to be a divorce. This Philippine law allows for a woman to free herself from the bonds of marriage based on the fact that the husband has had no contact for 4 or more years, no support of the child ever, no known whereabout of the husband by anyone who can come forward to state that, and the fact that he was declared an absentee for all of these court proceedings when there was opportunity for him to come forward for which an amount of time and newspaper postings was given by the courts in an effort for him to make his cliam then. By virtue of him remaining "absent" through all of it then the courts can then (and here's the quote from the order) "declare him and absentee and for all intents and purposes the man is "presumed" dead and that the woman is now free and lagally able to marry",,,,,, at any time she desires after the date of that court order". Now, with that explanation you can see how it is impossible to present a death certificate.

And YES, That is exactly what I was looking for when I first posted my problem here. My original quest on this thread was to see if anyone could direct me to how to contact the proper person at the embassy in order to discuss this document. Not necessarily how to come up with a non-existent death certificate. So thank you again for asking the folks here if they can help with that, because that is what I am looking for. I know they can't cure the actual problem. I merely look for a way to contact the proper party.

Mike

[RhettVoe 282]

The consular section no doubt has both a fax # and a generic email address to the visa section, in which to pose questions...however, if you decide to address any correspondence to anyone there with the preface:

'Dear Stupid Consular Official'...I doubt you will receive a quick response.

Moreover, in the visa section in Manila there is a fraud division, staffed with both American and Filipino personnel...the locals will be experts on Filipino documents, rules and regulations...The Americans will have studied up on local rules, regs, documentation, etc...for whatever the reason(s), they are asking for something more upon which to base a final visa decision...they are the experts...but if you decide to treat them like hired help, well, their responsiveness will be inversely proportional to your tone....

[minina 8]

Did you try calling these numbers? I hope it works, I dont know if it is Monday already in the Phillipines.

I also posted the link for their email adress

Good luck!!

For calls from mainland or continental United States, dial (703) 520-2235. The call center is open from 8:00 a.m. to 8:00 p.m., Manila time, Monday through Friday.

http://manila.usembassy.gov/contact.html

http://manila.usembassy.gov/wwwh3230.html

====================================================

The Embassy’s main trunk line 301-2000 is experiencing technical issues and prone to congestion. If your call can’t get through please use these numbers: 301-2166 or 301-2177

====================================================

Consular Section U.S. Embassy
1201 Roxas Boulevard
Manila, Philippines 1000 American Citizens Services

Tel. No. : (632) 301-2000

Passport and Citizenship Services: extension: 2555/2532

Special Consular Services: extension: 2246/2567

Fax : (632) 301-2017

Non-Immigrant Visa

For general inquiries and scheduling appointments, please call (02) 982-5555 / (02) 902-8930 for calls within the Philippines and other countries aside from mainland United States and (703) 520-2235 for calls from mainland United States. They are accessible from Monday through Friday, 8:00 a.m. to 8:00 p.m., Manila time, except US and Philippine holidays.

Alternatively, please call (02) 301-2104; available from 8:00 a.m. to 10:00 a.m. and 1:00 p.m. to 3:00 p.m., Monday through Friday, except US and Philippine holidays. This number is for general inquiries only (except K visas). NO TELEPHONE inquiries on an specific applicant’s case will be entertained. All inquiries must be in writing.

Immigrant Visa

For visa appointment related inquiries, please contact the Embassy’s Visa Information and Appointment Service at (632) 982-5555 or (632) 902-8930. The Visa Information and Appointment Service is open Monday through Friday, 8:00 a.m. to 8:00 p.m. (Manila time), except on Philippine and U.S. holidays. Applicants, agents, or petitioners in the U.S should call (703) 520-2235, from 8:00 p.m. to 8:00 a.m. (Eastern Standard Time). Callers may speak with an English-, Tagalog-, Ilocano- or Cebuano-speaking operator. This service is free of charge, except for long distance calls.

For inquiries on a specific case, please call the Immigrant Visa (IV) Unit's inquiry line at (632) 301-2000, extension 5184 or 5185 during normal business hours, except between 12:00 noon and 1:00 p.m.

[Boiler 45,402]

You need to file for a divorce here in the US or a Petition for Annulment in the Philippines based on Article 36 of the Philippine Family Code.

Google is your friend. Good idea to get it checked.

[NikLR 13,227]

have you asked the embassy what you can produce instead of the death certificate? Remember you may be dealing with the embassy in the Philippines but it is a United States Embassy. So, I suggest YOU the US Citizen call the embassy and ask them what else you can provide vs the death certificate for someone who isn't actually dead, just presumed dead because he didn't answer any summons so that your fiance could get her annulment?

[Boiler 45,402]

have you asked the embassy what you can produce instead of the death certificate? Remember you may be dealing with the embassy in the Philippines but it is a United States Embassy. So, I suggest YOU the US Citizen call the embassy and ask them what else you can provide vs the death certificate for someone who isn't actually dead, just presumed dead because he didn't answer any summons so that your fiance could get her annulment?

Pretty sure she did not get an annulment.

[NikLR 13,227]

Pretty sure she did not get an annulment.

Me too... Pretty sure that's the issue.