Why aren't the Removal of Conditions and Citizenship dates co-ordinated?

[vespa rossa 0]

Hi there,

I have a question about the I-751 and N-400. I don't understand why the system is set up so that when a non-USC marries a USC, they're given a 2 year green card but can't ask for citizenship until 3 years after geting green card. Why not just make the first green card a 3 year one, rather than cause someone to get a 2 year one and then a 10 year one, but only use the 10 year one for 1 year, because after that you're eligible for citizenship? Is there a reason for this? I married a non-USC in December 2009, he received his GC on March 4, 2010, and so we're getting ready to file for I-751 because December 4 = 90 days prior. BUT, it's about $600 and I just looked up N-400 which we'll have to apply from a year from now and that's ANOTHER $600.

So, I guess my question is: is it possible to just apply straight for citizenship? And if not, is there some valid reason they do this process (or just to get a lot of money)?

Just curious...

[Inky 1,110]

Hi there,

I have a question about the I-751 and N-400. I don't understand why the system is set up so that when a non-USC marries a USC, they're given a 2 year green card but can't ask for citizenship until 3 years after geting green card. Why not just make the first green card a 3 year one, rather than cause someone to get a 2 year one and then a 10 year one, but only use the 10 year one for 1 year, because after that you're eligible for citizenship? Is there a reason for this? I married a non-USC in December 2009, he received his GC on March 4, 2010, and so we're getting ready to file for I-751 because December 4 = 90 days prior. BUT, it's about $600 and I just looked up N-400 which we'll have to apply from a year from now and that's ANOTHER $600.

So, I guess my question is: is it possible to just apply straight for citizenship? And if not, is there some valid reason they do this process (or just to get a lot of money)?

Just curious...

1. Make your own post do not bump up posts from 2010.

2. Not everyone wants to apply to become a USC after 3 years, some people want to wait a little longer.

[vespa rossa 0]

1. Make your own post do not bump up posts from 2010.

2. Not everyone wants to apply to become a USC after 3 years, some people want to wait a little longer.

I meant no harm (not sure what "bumping" up a post does, but you make it seem malevolent), but I had typed the same subject line and this one popped up, so didn't want to make another...

And, I get that not everyone would want to become a USC after 3 years, but if you must wait until three years, why not make the initial green card 3 years instead of 2 so there's a natural step instead of applying for a 10-year and essentially "throwing it away" after 1 year?

[Kathryn41 3,205]

As the above question differs from the contents of the resurrected thread in which it was posted, I have split off the question and two posts and made them their own topic. I have also moved the thread to the Citizenship forum as the discussion is perhaps more relevant in this forum than in the Removal of Conditions forum.

[SaysWho 3]

I have no idea why they are not coordinated. Your point does make a lot of sense....but then, US immigration policies appear to make no sense a lot of the time. Or at the very least they do seem to follow any grand plan or logic.

[Kathryn41 3,205]

Hi there,

I have a question about the I-751 and N-400. I don't understand why the system is set up so that when a non-USC marries a USC, they're given a 2 year green card but can't ask for citizenship until 3 years after geting green card. Why not just make the first green card a 3 year one, rather than cause someone to get a 2 year one and then a 10 year one, but only use the 10 year one for 1 year, because after that you're eligible for citizenship? Is there a reason for this? I married a non-USC in December 2009, he received his GC on March 4, 2010, and so we're getting ready to file for I-751 because December 4 = 90 days prior. BUT, it's about $600 and I just looked up N-400 which we'll have to apply from a year from now and that's ANOTHER $600.

So, I guess my question is: is it possible to just apply straight for citizenship? And if not, is there some valid reason they do this process (or just to get a lot of money)?

Just curious...

Hi vespa,

There is a reason for this. The USCIS is very concerned with immigration fraud through fraudulent marriages. US citizenship is a highly sought after 'benefit' for many foreigners, and the marriage route is considered one of the easier ways for someone to become a US citizen, especially if they do not qualify under another category. The US Government, a number of years back, decided that in order to ensure those seeking residency in the US - and who have the potential to become US citizens - were not involved in marriage fraud, that they would provide a 2 year restricted residency. The couple was then required to prove that their marriage was not fraudulent. Since the law also allows a green card holder who has been resident in the US and married to a US citizen for 3 years to apply for US citizenship, USCIS wanted to discover any fraudulent marriages before the green card holder became eligible for citizenship.

Someone may be able to 'fake' a valid marriage for one year. If they made the conditional green card valid for 3 years, then there would be a good chance that individuals with fraudulent relationships could become US citizens without having proved that their marriage was not entered into just to become a US citizen so it would be pointless to co-ordinate the two applications. It is much more difficult to remove someone's citizenship after it has been granted than to remove the individual before citizenship has been granted. That left 2 years as the most realistic time frame for the conditional status.

While the system is indeed awkward and expensive as well as time consuming for those seeking citizenship through marriage, the system was set up to satisfy the needs of the US Government, not the convenience of the green card holder.

I hope this helps .

Edited November 19, 2011 by Kathryn41

[vespa rossa 0]

Thanks, Kathryn. That does provide some clarity. I just wonder why they couldn't use whatever methods they have to test the validity of a marriage at the 2-year/ROC stage at the 3-year/Citizenship stage instead. If my husband had a 3-year green card we could prove our marriage was in fact real for the past three years when we apply for his citizenship (since I already sent proof of a real relationship at the I-129F stage, Packet 3 stage, and AOS stage), instead of proving it after 2 years and then again after 3 years (assuming that we have to send more proof at that stage...I haven't read all the requirements, just the price tag ). I suppose discussing it won't change anything, it just really irks me to have to send big checks a year apart when nothing has really changed in between (at least for us)...especially after all the previous time and expense. Sigh.

[Kathryn41 3,205]

You don't actually have to send a lot more proof at the Citizenship stage. You basically submit tax transcripts and your marriage certificate and that is about it. You may be requested to provide additional information for the interview but that tends to be the exception rather than the rule. I brought it alone just in case but it was never requested. You also don't have to apply for citizenship after 3 years - or even at all - and many people continue on as a permanent resident without pursuing citizenship right away. There is also a big political push on USCIS to approve citizenship applications in a 'timely' way (more votes for the politicians ) so having to validate a marriage as part of the process would significantly slow down that process and potentially lead to political pressure, which may result in someone slipping through the cracks more easily and being approved when they shouldn't be.

Edited November 19, 2011 by Kathryn41

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

Thanks, Kathryn. That does provide some clarity. I just wonder why they couldn't use whatever methods they have to test the validity of a marriage at the 2-year/ROC stage at the 3-year/Citizenship stage instead. If my husband had a 3-year green card we could prove our marriage was in fact real for the past three years when we apply for his citizenship (since I already sent proof of a real relationship at the I-129F stage, Packet 3 stage, and AOS stage), instead of proving it after 2 years and then again after 3 years (assuming that we have to send more proof at that stage...I haven't read all the requirements, just the price tag ). I suppose discussing it won't change anything, it just really irks me to have to send big checks a year apart when nothing has really changed in between (at least for us)...especially after all the previous time and expense. Sigh.

The ROC stage is automatic for most applicants, especially if they had a successful interview at the AOS stage, so that does seem to contradict what Kathryn is saying. However, it does give the DHS/USCIS two bites at the same apple, so there are, theoretically at least, two chances to find the rotten spot in a marriage. One advantage to the USCIS, and to the LPR, is that once he/she has the 10 year card in hand, then that takes the time constraint factor away from both parties, and the USCIS is free to do a more thorough job of verifying whether or not the applicant meets the requirements of an early citizenship based on marriage. If you want to avoid all the extra screening, and some do, wait to apply at the five year mark where much less, if any, scrutiny is given to the applicant's marriage.

[Kathryn41 3,205]

The ROC does require a good degree of documented evidence, though, which most valid marriages are able to provide so while it appears automatic from our perspective here on VJ , there is a good degree of scrutiny of the marriage before the 10 year card is granted.

[Brother Hesekiel 2,235]

Becoming a conditional resident, an unconditional resident and -- for those who desire it -- a U.S. citizen are three different steps, of which everyone has its own challenges. Combining step two and three makes as much sense as collecting the fees for the divorce decree with those of the marriage license. Some people just don't get divorced . . .

[NickD 202]

Started in 1986 under the Reagan administration, immigration was limited to 50,000 persons per year with a lottery system. Door was left open for work visas where the likes of HP and Microsoft could hire ten Russian engineers for the price of one American engineer, provided they couldn't find American engineers, but dealing with very powerful corporations and they could lie like hell and get away with it.

This only left marriage to bring immigrants here, first year was over two million applicants with marriage, about 80% of it was fraud, so something had to be done, like fining the US sponsoring citizen $250,000 and a five year federal prison and a far more extensive search during the AOS stage. But that apparently was not enough, in 1988, invented the ROC stage. Worthless in my opinion, can claim incompatibility, abuse, like not answering a question of your spouse in two seconds, can claim ignoring him/her, or a hardship in returning back to your home country. But nevertheless, the law. One way to beat it is pay a foreign justice of the peace a couple of bucks and have him predate your marriage certificate by a couple of years. Proof of marriage for two years releases you of the ROC requirement. Even a day short of two years with a real honest to goodness marriage places you in that ROC stage. In such cases if the immigrant committed fraud by lying to the sponsoring US citizen, still can become a US citizen, but the sponsor is stills stuck with that I-864, talk about an injustice to American citizens that were suckered.

To avoid suspicion on this respect, insisted we get married by a federal judge in the USA, and in our state, had to wait two weeks after we applied for our marriage license so they could do a background check that we were indeed free to marry. But didn't count at all for the USCIS, still wanted a ton of evidence.

Our AOS stage took approximately a year due to that third degree you are automatically a criminal attitude and we were already married three months before we could even apply. So got stuck with the ROC. We sent in the I-751 in exactly 89 before the expiration of that conditional green card along with a ton of evidence. Ha, even invited the USCIS to our home where they could question all the neighbors, friends, co-workers, and relatives. Never showed up, but wanted to see our papers, kind of reminds you of Nazi Germany.

Then only to receive a completely unexplainable one year extension notice. That prompted us to apply for US citizenship as soon as possible, but that was 88 days before the third anniversary. Fees didn't bother us, was the wait that killed us more than anything and the stress it caused. Reports showed that the USCIS is only averaging 140,000 I-751's per year, but still dragging their feet on this application. With their delay, wanted updated evidence, not a damn new bit of evidence was supplied with the N-400, they had all of it.

But this is what we have to go through because the USCIS was doing a sloppy job back in 1986, its the law.

[newlyweds2010 208]

Thanks, Kathryn. That does provide some clarity. I just wonder why they couldn't use whatever methods they have to test the validity of a marriage at the 2-year/ROC stage at the 3-year/Citizenship stage instead. If my husband had a 3-year green card we could prove our marriage was in fact real for the past three years when we apply for his citizenship (since I already sent proof of a real relationship at the I-129F stage, Packet 3 stage, and AOS stage), instead of proving it after 2 years and then again after 3 years (assuming that we have to send more proof at that stage...I haven't read all the requirements, just the price tag ). I suppose discussing it won't change anything, it just really irks me to have to send big checks a year apart when nothing has really changed in between (at least for us)...especially after all the previous time and expense. Sigh.

Hi, check the dates in the timeline in your signature block. It seems to me that you will not be eligible for naturalization on Dec. 4, 2012, based on your other dates.

[vespa rossa 0]

Hi, check the dates in the timeline in your signature block. It seems to me that you will not be eligible for naturalization on Dec. 4, 2012, based on your other dates.

And why is that? From what I've read you're eligible to apply for a 10-year greencard 2 years less 90 days after you received your 2-year greencard.

Given that my husband received his on March 4th, 2010, he is eligible for a 10-year greencard on Sunday March 4th, 2012 and we can apply 90 days before that = Monday, December 5, 2011.

As for naturalization, he'll be eligible 3 years less 90 days from when he received his greencard, meaning Monday, December 5, 2012.

[tdegrenier 1]

The ROC does require a good degree of documented evidence, though, which most valid marriages are able to provide so while it appears automatic from our perspective here on VJ , there is a good degree of scrutiny of the marriage before the 10 year card is granted.

Not automatic from my POV. Actually, my wife's ROC took longer than the AOS, almost twice as long. Not sure why . . .

In terms of paperwork, everything went flawlessly, but it took FOREVER!!!!!