help needed

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

guns are like condoms - better to have it and not need it, than need it and not have it.

It is never better to have condoms and not need them.

[ONA 133]

At least they had a pretty abundant supply of foreign currency. Heck when I was working there we were still paying in cash in US dollars or Euros.

they don't do that in Russia anymore, but they still do in Ukraine.

Last time I went to Kiev was in February, and I noticed that my cousin carried a $100 bill in her wallet along with grivnas. Then, I was staying at my uncle's and aunt's place - one day they had their a/c installed and I was the only person, who was supposed to be in the apartment at that time, so they left me $300 in cash to pay for it.

[Bad_Daddy 2,209]

they don't do that in Russia anymore, but they still do in Ukraine.

Last time I went to Kiev was in February, and I noticed that my cousin carried a $100 bill in her wallet along with grivnas. Then, I was staying at my uncle's and aunt's place - one day they had their a/c installed and I was the only person, who was supposed to be in the apartment at that time, so they left me $300 in cash to pay for it.

They stash dollars in Belarus also. It's not uncommon for a Belarusian to have a few hundred US dollars packed away. I would think they would have packed away Euro's as well, but I never hear of it if they do.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

they don't do that in Russia anymore, but they still do in Ukraine.

Last time I went to Kiev was in February, and I noticed that my cousin carried a $100 bill in her wallet along with grivnas. Then, I was staying at my uncle's and aunt's place - one day they had their a/c installed and I was the only person, who was supposed to be in the apartment at that time, so they left me $300 in cash to pay for it.

Try paying in Grivnyas here. If the US dollars we use became worthless or unavailable with the swipe of a card, I expect it would be worse than New Orleans after the hurricane.

What currency would we use? I think bullets would be pretty good

[LvivLovers 39]

It happened after the hurricane in New Orleans.

But I am not into seeds and stuff. I have plenty of guns and bullets to trade for produce.

By "trade" I think what Gary is really saying is if you give him your food he won't shoot you...he's trading your food for your life...it's a good deal and you should take it!

[LvivLovers 39]

eekee, just a quick blurb about you - stay in Russia. It will be hit way less hard by international financial collapse due to it's infrastructure alone. America is set up for driving everywhere and almost every city imports it's food from somewhere else. In Russia you can walk to your food supply and collectively, society will more than likely work together to benefit each other.

Who knows if the "new Russians" will do so but the Soviet-era Russians are more than capable of banding together to survive. It's almost like it's in their DNA. Americans, on the other hand, have always relied on Big Brother to get the job done and have historically done very little to survive as a community. Yes, Rosie Riveter went to work at the factory but the War Dept. still made sure everything was coordinated. In Russia, they didn't need that coordination because they took care of it locally. The infrastructure hasn't changed much since those days.

That's exactly the thing. Poor countries will actually do much better...they are more used to doing things for themselves. Half the people here will probably spend several days trying to figure out why they can't get their mobile phones, etc. to work. No self-reliance.

I don't personally like the Glock either but a million people use it so it can't be all that bad.

I'm not picky...as long as I can point it at something and shoot it, I'm happy!

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

By "trade" I think what Gary is really saying is if you give him your food he won't shoot you...he's trading your food for your life...it's a good deal and you should take it!

Yes, of course. I am not giving up my bullets!

[slim 1,523]

I do not think people that take such preparations more seriously are crazy.

I think it's a little bit crazy and I'm one of the guys that takes it semi-seriously. But, it's something I feel like I have to do. The whole time I'm doing it I'm saying to myself (and my wife!) "I know this is crazy... but I'm doing it anyway."

It is never better to have condoms and not need them.

Or to wake up the next day and say, "Darn it. I probably should've worn a condom."

one day they had their a/c installed and I was the only person, who was supposed to be in the apartment at that time, so they left me $300 in cash to pay for it.

I'm about to switch careers. $300 installs sounds like a good career option.

(Then again, elevators are always broken, electric is pretty dicey... maybe I'll just stay here.)

Try paying in Grivnyas here. If the US dollars we use became worthless or unavailable with the swipe of a card, I expect it would be worse than New Orleans after the hurricane.

What currency would we use? I think bullets would be pretty good

It's hard to tell what we'd use.

I think we'd be on a barter system pretty fast and anything of practical value would work. Things like alcohol and cigarettes, chocolate - luxury items - would be premium "cash" but the more typical trade items would be things like salt and sugar. Bullets will always have value in a post-collapse world.

####### would be a barter item as well.

That's exactly the thing. Poor countries will actually do much better...they are more used to doing things for themselves. Half the people here will probably spend several days trying to figure out why they can't get their mobile phones, etc. to work. No self-reliance.

You got it. And that's what makes it so dangerous a situation. All those "everybody gets a trophy" folks will have to seek out their own trophies and will resort to desperate measures to get one. If you're unprepared to deal with that situation it will be extremely difficult to not get caught up in it.

I'm not picky...as long as I can point it at something and shoot it, I'm happy!

You should familiarize yourself with other weapons as well.

Next time you're at the range, mosey on over to the other guys shooting and just say something like, "Well, that's a nice looking gun. What is it? How does it work?" Before you know it, you'll be shooting all their ammo and they'll be coaching you on proper stance, reloading, etc.

I hate shooting free ammo!

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

That's exactly the thing. Poor countries will actually do much better...they are more used to doing things for themselves. Half the people here will probably spend several days trying to figure out why they can't get their mobile phones, etc. to work. No self-reliance.

I'm not picky...as long as I can point it at something and shoot it, I'm happy!

I actually saw a guy from Connecticut kicking an ATM on Monday, Columbus Day. It had been just a great weekend, all the Quebecois were here (It is their Thanksgiving weekend) and all the people from Boston, New York, Hartford, etc. He was in a panic because the ATM was out of money!

"Dude, there is another one over there!" The guy drive 4 hours to Vermont and was flipping out because he had to drive a car another 300 yards to another ATM!

I think I am going to need more bullets.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

Keep in mind whom you'll be trading with. Don't most of the folks up your way also have all that stuff? Maybe not in the quantities you have, but if they have ammo already, what would they need with another dozen rounds?

As a non-drinker, it would be easy for you to stockpile Jack Daniels!

Jack would probably be good trading stock also.

I would say the vast majority of homes here have guns. Usually several. A handgun for going shopping, going to church (many people use the same handgun for both), a .22 for squirrels, rabbits and garden pests, a deer/bear/moose rifle (usually a .30-06) and a shotgun, 20 ga or bigger. There are enough guns that everyone will have one, no doubt.

Most people do not keep much ammo. Alla has been introduced to the "orange hoard" at the gun club. All the guys that come in the weeks before deer season, bang off 10 rounds and leave. They have another 10 rounds for deer season (probably 8 or 9 too many) and that's it. They have a partial box of 100 .22s at home, one and one half boxes of 12 ga. grouse loads. They will be good to go for a few weeks if all they have to do is shoot a little food.

I think they will need more ammo. MidwayUSA as god as it is and I buy a LOT of stuff from them, has caused another dilemma in a case such as this. There are very few stores selling compnents anymore or even ammunition. I remember when Walmart used to stock a crapload of ammo of all types, Now they have pallet loads of 12 and 20 guage grouse loads, a few boxes of .22 and a few boxes of popular rifle ammo and handgun ammo. Now, online shopping has reduced the stores that carry that stuff. we have exactly TWO in this area that carry powder, primers.

As much as I like the .40 S&W, LL, good luck finding ammo for it on a crunch. 9mm, .38 spec, or .45 will be the way to go. .30-06, .308 and .223 in rifle cartridges, maybe also 7.62x39

At any rate, it may be a moot point, I would expect any stores to be cleaned by the end of day 1. That pretty much happened in New Orleans.

Handload! Get some bullet molds. Hit the smaller auto shops and tire shops in your area, give them 5 gallon buckets and ask them to give you their used wheelweights (lead wheelweights are being phased out also, ask them for lead only) Wheelweight metal is a pretty good bullet alloy by itself, will work in a pinch for just about anything. Pick up the 5 gallon buckets before they are full or you will not be "picking them up" Free bullets "in the raw". The stuff keeps forever! Literally.

[slim 1,523]

I think I am going to need more bullets.

You can't have too much ammo.

The reason I don't have more is because (well, who am I BSing... it's expensive) I'll have to move it once the zombies hit. It's only possible to carry so much ammo, even in a vehicle. However, if I had a place I was staying, you better believe I'd have so much I could live off it forever.

Jack would probably be good trading stock also.

I would say the vast majority of homes here have guns. Usually several. A handgun for going shopping, going to church (many people use the same handgun for both), a .22 for squirrels, rabbits and garden pests, a deer/bear/moose rifle (usually a .30-06) and a shotgun, 20 ga or bigger. There are enough guns that everyone will have one, no doubt.

Most people do not keep much ammo. Alla has been introduced to the "orange hoard" at the gun club. All the guys that come in the weeks before deer season, bang off 10 rounds and leave. They have another 10 rounds for deer season (probably 8 or 9 too many) and that's it. They have a partial box of 100 .22s at home, one and one half boxes of 12 ga. grouse loads. They will be good to go for a few weeks if all they have to do is shoot a little food.

Exactly why ammo and Jack would be better trading stock than guns. As you said, most people only keep a few boxes of shells. They will need more!

I think they will need more ammo. MidwayUSA as god as it is and I buy a LOT of stuff from them, has caused another dilemma in a case such as this. There are very few stores selling compnents anymore or even ammunition. I remember when Walmart used to stock a crapload of ammo of all types, Now they have pallet loads of 12 and 20 guage grouse loads, a few boxes of .22 and a few boxes of popular rifle ammo and handgun ammo. Now, online shopping has reduced the stores that carry that stuff. we have exactly TWO in this area that carry powder, primers.

As much as I like the .40 S&W, LL, good luck finding ammo for it on a crunch. 9mm, .38 spec, or .45 will be the way to go. .30-06, .308 and .223 in rifle cartridges, maybe also 7.62x39

At any rate, it may be a moot point, I would expect any stores to be cleaned by the end of day 1. That pretty much happened in New Orleans.

Whatever you have at the start is what you'll have unless you're fortunate enough to "find" some. If you "find" some, it'll more than likely be the common calibers.

Handload! Get some bullet molds. Hit the smaller auto shops and tire shops in your area, give them 5 gallon buckets and ask them to give you their used wheelweights (lead wheelweights are being phased out also, ask them for lead only) Wheelweight metal is a pretty good bullet alloy by itself, will work in a pinch for just about anything. Pick up the 5 gallon buckets before they are full or you will not be "picking them up" Free bullets "in the raw". The stuff keeps forever! Literally.

You can buy Wolf, Bear, Tula, etc., for cheaper than you can load - especially if you factor in your time. If it's your hobby and you like doing it, have at it.

But, you can buy it cheap and stack it deep with way less effort than tracking down all the components and spending all your time doing it by hand. Plus, it's already neatly packed for you!

My buddy, who is a big handloader, recenlty came over to the dark side. "It is cheaper for me to shoot WPA. I can't believe it, but it's true." We're testing out his new stuff this weekend.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

I think it's a little bit crazy and I'm one of the guys that takes it semi-seriously. But, it's something I feel like I have to do. The whole time I'm doing it I'm saying to myself (and my wife!) "I know this is crazy... but I'm doing it anyway."

Or to wake up the next day and say, "Darn it. I probably should've worn a condom."

I'm about to switch careers. $300 installs sounds like a good career option.

(Then again, elevators are always broken, electric is pretty dicey... maybe I'll just stay here.)

It's hard to tell what we'd use.

I think we'd be on a barter system pretty fast and anything of practical value would work. Things like alcohol and cigarettes, chocolate - luxury items - would be premium "cash" but the more typical trade items would be things like salt and sugar. Bullets will always have value in a post-collapse world.

####### would be a barter item as well.

You got it. And that's what makes it so dangerous a situation. All those "everybody gets a trophy" folks will have to seek out their own trophies and will resort to desperate measures to get one. If you're unprepared to deal with that situation it will be extremely difficult to not get caught up in it.

You should familiarize yourself with other weapons as well.

Next time you're at the range, mosey on over to the other guys shooting and just say something like, "Well, that's a nice looking gun. What is it? How does it work?" Before you know it, you'll be shooting all their ammo and they'll be coaching you on proper stance, reloading, etc.

I hate shooting free ammo!

Funny post! Got #######?

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

Yes it is true you can buy cheap ammo for less than handloading ...and I do! For just having fun, or even for armegeddon, why not?

But those companies are fresh out of cheap .351 WSL, .35 WCF, .45-110 x 2-7/8, .348 WCF, .300 Savage, .45 S&W, .38 S&W, .405 WCF, .30-40 etc. I also handload very meticulously for competition shooting. Each type has their purpose. For laying in a huge stock of ammo quickly, and cheaply, you cannot beat buying a few crates of Wolf ammo.

[LvivLovers 39]

I don't have a copyright on it, so pass it on. The more like-minded folks we can get knowledgeable about this sort of thing, the better. Perhaps we can stave off disaster even by being prepared for what's coming.

The other thing that's really nice about this too is the more you get into it, the more nice folks you'll meet. Amazing that "crazy gun nuts" are folks that'll open up their homes to folks who were complete strangers and share every bit of knowledge they have with you simply because you're a "crazy gun nut" too. There's something about people who "get it" and it's really nice to be able to network with them.

Do so as soon as possible. Find a few in your local area. First-hand knowledge beats a website any day!

Will do. More and more people are waking up to what's coming...I'm a prime example...a software dev/stocks guy. My dad was at his doctor the other day and made some sort of off-the-cuff comment about the state of things and next thing you know they were into a deep discussion about preparations. The doctor actually went and shut the door to avoid looking crazy I guess but his thoughts mirrored our own.

Gold and silver are useless during crisis. After everything settles down, they may be worth something but I'd rather have a chicken over an ounce of gold any day. I got into it hot and heavy one day with a co-worker who was telling me I was silly for buying ammo when I should be buying gold. I told him to save his commments for when I'm pointing my rifle at his wife and daughter and he's pointing his gold bars back at me.

I agree...if PMs were the preparation one makes, it would be less than useless. But I think it has it's place. Fiat currencies are going to be a thing of the past soon imo. They are simply a tool used to steal wealth and keep people enslaved. We will have to return to some kind of currency backed by a limited resource after a period of bartering. It makes sense that the PMs would be that currency. It's also a part of my hedging strategy. I'm expecting USD deflation for a period of time as the EU collapses followed by a period of USD hyperinflation as the US collapses. During deflation I'll be buying some PMs and taking out as many big loans as I can to buy real estate (the only time I'm breaking my cash only rule). The PMs will be a store of value. Once hyperinflation occurs, I convert some of that PM store back into inflated USD and pay off all the loans. All this assumes a somewhat orderly destruction. All my other preparations will be to cover the other scenario.

Think in practical terms. What would you need if there was no electric anymore? It sounds like you're aware of what could happen. "Pretty much the worst parts of the Bible."

Many poeple will tell you to start your preps small, something like buying an extra can of soup each week at the grocery. While that's great, and you should be doing that, it's completely backwards of how you should be prepping. Don't prepare for a storm that knocks the power out for a few hours. Prepare for the storm that rips the interstate power grid completely out of the ground and there's nobody coming to fix it.

Yep...I'm prepping for the real deal.

If you're dependent upon that lake as your water supply make sure you have a way to treat the water should it become contaminated. That could be something as simple as boiling it or as complex as a Bekey water filtration system. Keep in mind it's good to have something portable as well should you need to relocate. Iodine pills or a hand-crank work well. There are some pretty neat UV filters out there now but they're somewhat pricey and use those pesky battery thingies. (Whenever possible, use another form of power than batteries. Murphy WILL show up when you need battery power.)

Since you could possibly stay there, you should start stockpiling "normal" food in your basement. Each time you go to Costco or Sams just pick up an extra thing of whatever you're buying. Rotate your stock and you'll be just fine.

We've got a decent way to filter water if it comes to that. And yeah...we already shop at Costco so pretty easy to load up. We are at this point just planning to be holed up at home...only reason we'd move further out would be to get away from the people. I think we are in a pretty defensible spot right now though.

Keep in mind your typical heating/cooling source (electric and/or natural gas) will probably not be available and an alternate method will be necessary. Start installing solar now if possible. Maybe a generator if you need one. A good wood burner or pellet stove is a decent option if you can store the fuel in quantity. Another option would be some sort of hydro or wind power since you're there on the lake.

Would love to go solar here...plenty of sun...only problem is our rampant homeowner's association.

Edited October 26, 2011 by LvivLovers

[LvivLovers 39]

Start asking around. I bet you have a neighbor or two already on this stuff as well. You guys have a natural safe haven as long as you can defend it. If you drive through your neighborhood and see some funny antennae sticking out of someone's barn or back yard, chances are that person is a HAM operator and those dudes have been doing this for ages. Ask that guy first. Approach slowly, but directly. "Hey man, I see you have that radio tower up there.... I'm thinking about getting into that sort of thing. Not necessarily HAM, per se, but all the OTHER stuff." He'll know what you're talking about. Don't expect too much on the first date... but by the third date, you should be able to close the deal!

No doubt there are some in the area...I think a lot of people are probably preparing...I've seen lots of strange vehicles in the area recently doing various work.

Twinkies? I'm not sure (there's a bunch of stuff out there on this though) but I know they'd keep for a year or two pretty easily.

I was just kidding about the twinkies....those things DO seem to keep forever though sort of like McDonald's fries, but you have to ask what are they really made of?!

It takes a lot of land to grow food. A vegetable garden is not enough to sustain a family - or even one person - for very long. But, it's good to grow what you can and the best option I've seen for doing that is raised bed gardening. Check out the Backwoods Home magazine or website for ideas on stuff like that.

I don't get into gardening because I'm a carnivore. I'd much rather use that real estate for things like goats, rabbits, chickens, hogs, etc.

This is where networking comes into play. If you have tomatoes you can trade them for your neighbor's eggs. If you have a rabbit you can trade your neighbor for his help in chopping fire wood.

We probably have enough space to grow on if we had to. The wife had a lot of success with the things she's planted the last few years...she couldn't keep up with harvesting everything. But yeah...having enough for the whole family to live off indefinitely is another story. Some farmland would be much better. Neither of us are big meat eaters...probably less so if we were doing the killing.

I've given more thought to this than anyone my age (or income level!) should and I hate to say it but I don't think it's a question of if it's going to happen... but WHEN it's going to happen. Like you said the global economy is way more fragile than people realize. Our society in America is only a few short weeks (if we're lucky) away from total collapse at any given time.

Ditto. It's going to happen and those in the know, know it's going to happen. The rest of the people are just sheep.

I see a couple different scenarios being possible. They could happen one at a time or they could play out simultaneously. It may take only one or it may take a combination of things.

1. Financial Collapse.

Over just a few short weeks (if we're lucky) our dollar - along with every other currency on this planet - is worthless. People will stop working because they're no longer getting paid and/or the money they're paid doesn't buy them anything. In America that'll mean the power goes out and the food trucks stop coming. Within days there'll be full scale riots in every major metro area and anyone who has anything will relocate to a more secure location and start guarding what they have. Within weeks fuel and food sources will be exhausted and "basically, the worst parts of the Bible" will begin to happen.

2. Natural Disaster.

Earthquake, tsunami, volcanoes, hurricanes, solar flares - or a combination of all those things - could lead to a catastrophe so huge it would create a financial collapse or conditions where folks were no longer able to function as they had before. When it happens somewhere like Haiti, big freakin deal. Life returned to "normal" in a few days. Normal = f'd up. Around here (and in China, India, Europe, etc. - and let's really hope nothing happens to the oil in the ME) if life couldn't carry on as normal for even a few days the global economy would take a hit. What if it happens in two places at once? Three? The earth has been recreating itself since long before we were here and it'll be doing it long after we're gone. Once we take a global hit to the economy, it's likely in America that'll mean the power goes out and the food trucks stop coming. Within days there'll be full scale riots in every major metro area and anyone who has anything will relocate to a more secure location and start guarding what they have. Within weeks fuel and food sources will be exhausted and "basically, the worst parts of the Bible" will begin to happen.

3. War.

Still, and always, a concern. One of my biggest fears is Israel and Iran are going to go at it and we're going to have to pick a side - as is China, Russia, India, etc. It's very doubtful we'd all end up on the same side. I'm not too biblical, but there's a reason that 4,000 year old book has stuck around for so long. The Middle Eastern countries will also have to pick sides (Israel anyone? Anyone?) and once that die is cast... it's Armageddon. If that happens, we're likely to see a global financial meltdown and in America that'll mean the power goes out and the food trucks stop coming. Within days there'll be full scale riots in every major metro area and anyone who has anything will relocate to a more secure location and start guarding what they have. Within weeks fuel and food sources will be exhausted and "basically, the worst parts of the Bible" will begin to happen.

4. Terror Attack.

It's widely whispered China has the capability to attack our infrastructure with EMP. But, that's not the biggy. Buddha set them up long ago with what's called the Jet Stream. All they really need to do is set up a few dozen container ships in international waters and release biotoxins. Everything west of the Rockies would be dead in a matter of days and there'd still be some casualties all the way into the midwest. The east coast could be hit with dirty bombs, etc., and all our ports could be simultaneously wasted with something simple like sappers. The crazies from ME have long planned to hit us with bio/nuc weapons and if they did so in a simultaneous attack in a few major cities, it'd be lights out for the U.S. of A. Look how much harm Katrina caused and that was only a "small" area of the US. It didn't even really hit our pocket books. Couple that with 9/11 in not only NY but also LA, Chicago, Denver, Atlanta, etc., and we'd be f'd. And that's before we even get into things like the water supply for the SW, the power grid, nuclear plants, etc. Basically, a big one of these or several smaller events could trigger financial meltdown In America that'll mean the power goes out and the food trucks stop coming. Within days there'll be full scale riots in every major metro area and anyone who has anything will relocate to a more secure location and start guarding what they have. Within weeks fuel and food sources will be exhausted and "basically, the worst parts of the Bible" will begin to happen.

5. Actual Armageddon.

Hey, it could happen! We keep hearing about it. Who knows? I'm under no impression that my sinnin' butt will be raptured up into outer space. I'm here to be on Jesus' fire team. It's going to be one helluva war!

All very plausible scenarios and I can think of a lot more. It will almost certainly be number 1 that happens first though. When no one wants dollars anymore, everything is going to be disrupted. Food will be gone off the shelves in a few days. Cats and dogs living together...

The one thing I really love about this forum is the majority of folks don't think this post is weird. I'll admit, it's a little out there and tinfoil hatty, but like I said, I hope I'm wrong and this is all fun and games.

If you've looked at it financially, you know it's going to happen one of these days. If we're lucky, it'll be Argentina. If we're not... it'll be... well, it'll be interesting!

It is weird...hell, we talked about it for years and didn't take action because we thought it was so crazy. We just wanted to think the powers that be would never have let this happen. The more time goes by though the easier it is to see the iceberg getting bigger and bigger and connect the dots. The FED is at this point just doing everything they can to hold down our interest rates because any rise is going to be devastating. They will print as much money as it takes to try to contain it, but eventually it's going to pop. It has to. They are down to a few years max of being able to keep up the charade...could be less depending on what happens in the EU. So yeah...I hope it's just paranoia or whatever, but I don't think so. What's really crazy to me is that the masses aren't thinking about this too. They know something is wrong, but the don't know exactly what it is. Everyone has been intentionally dumbed down and as long as they can keep going day to day in their own little worlds they don't stop to ask questions about the big picture.