Conversion as related to visa approval...

[Myopia 93]

Judging others' iman and actions really takes away from our own personal jihad. Spending time with one's family is the measure of religiosity?

When it comes to Islam, I look at the Quran and Sunnah and see if the actions match. ALlah tells the believing women in the Quran to cover so I cover. Other women choose not to cover which is in contradiction to what Allah has ordered the believing woman to do in the Quran. I know what Jihad An Nafs is. I also know what enjoining the good and forbidding the bad means also.

The idea that because I am striving for the sake of Allah within my self, trying to make sure I pray on time, making sure that I am aware that all my actions are accountable etc(which is part of striving feasibilillah), I am not supposed to correct someone else is incorrect.

You can spend time with your family. Islam tells us to honor the ties of the womb. This is wajib on us but we do not celebrate or partake in those celebrations that are contradictory to our beliefs. Celebrating Easter would be a contradiction as we do not believe that Jesus died on the cross so why would anyone wish to sit with anyone and celebrate that? I consider myself quite balanced but I have never understood why some muslims think its ok to celebrate occasions that are clearly in opposition to the Shahadah. Allah knows best.

[Myopia 93]

Hijab is fard and honestly, its not shocking to me that your marriage is so successful. Hijab is fard aka required by Islam and because you made that step, you completed your deen. I think you completely could agree that there are alot of required things in Islam, tenets that need to be followed and its not a decision that should be made quickly or lightly and needs to be completely understood before undertaken. If its really wanted and something that someone will make a commitment to , then becoming a muslim is the right decision. But making bidda, or innovation to a religion by deciding what you want to do selectively isnt respectful to the religion and its not going to help either person in the long run. There are alot of fard things in Islam and its confusing to the man in my opinion when someone says they have reverted or converted and then pick and choose what part of the religion they want to follow

There is nothing in Islam that says that wearing hijab completes anyones deen. There is only one hadeeth that speaks about the Deen being completed when it comes to an act in Islam and that is the act of marriage. You are right that hijab is fard on the muslim woman and muslim women should wear hijab but if they do not wear it they are not kicked out of Islam. They are sinning by not wearing it but as long as they profess to belief in Allah and His Messenger then they are muslims.

The truth is you have some valid points and noone should feel offended. I have always been an advocate for womens rights in Islam. We have many and I really believe that new sisters would benefit a lot by studying what their rights are in Islam. Learning what their responsibilities are and maybe this would cause a stronger foundation in the Deen so if they did get divorced, they would be firm in faith.

It is not wrong to marry a man who is muslim and convert. The Prophet married Juwayriyah when she was still a jew.

[maimouna 21]

HIT, I just would like to know who made you an authority on muslim affairs? Are you a scholar?

Someone already explained to you that muslim men are allowed to marry non muslim women(christians and jews).

I am sure MENA women are smart enough to convert due to deep conviction in Islamic beliefs and not due to "being in love". Who are we to say what they converted for? Are we in their hearts?

All couples, despite cultural and religious beliefs will make compromises on how to raise their kids. I am sure you will find that all over VJ not just on the MENA boards. I am a born raised muslim married to a born & raised muslim and we had to negotiate on what principles we will want to raise our kids. that stem from the fact that we are both individuals from 2 different families, different habits etc...There is no denying that intefaith couples will have a harder time working through those issues but at the end, kids from these marriage will have a greater appreciattion for diversity.

[~PalmTreeGurl~ 154]

I dont think the majority of those that revert especially to marry mena men really really understand what they are doing. I think there is alot of half hearted stuff going on and frankly if most really reverted, its because they didnt have a deeply based christian belief to begin with. I love muslims and have spent alot of time around Islam but I dont like agree with hijab and honestly, most of what I dont like is the cultural interpretation of islam and not islam itself. I also dont think many even understand that once you take shihada, that apostasy is punishable by death in several hadiths and frankly I think if most knew that they couldnt easily leave a religion, they wouldnt revert or convert to it. Couple that with complete intolerance for churches and christian beliefs in several mena countries, I doubt most reverting even really understand on a deeper level what it means to be a muslim and the lifetime commitment it is. You cant just switch back.. oh excuse me, you CAN in the United States where sharia law isnt enforced. Leaving islam is not allowed and talking about christianity is punishable by jail time in several mena countries. I doubt that most reverts really even contemplate all of this. They think... oh yes Jesus is a prophet and I am not a really strong christian to begin with so I can relegate Jesus to the prophet status because I really dont like church anyway. But to completely toss a lifetime of belief systems in a short time? I think they are cupid conversions and nothing more, not really thought out nor adhered to after the relationship goes south unless of course, they start another mena relationship with another muslim. In the end, without the support system of their American friends and family, they will be floating aimlessly. With a very low percentage of these relationships lasting , the best piece of advice is to keep your american family close and family close because you will need them later after your youth fades and this adventure ends.. and you are back with the people of your youth and heritage..

I know of people that believe that. Some muslims argue that this isnt true, but some do believe it to be true. Makes me want to hold Adam alittle tighter each day and thankful GOD gave him to be my husband.

[sandinista! 1,816]

There is nothing in Islam that says that wearing hijab completes anyones deen. There is only one hadeeth that speaks about the Deen being completed when it comes to an act in Islam and that is the act of marriage. You are right that hijab is fard on the muslim woman and muslim women should wear hijab but if they do not wear it they are not kicked out of Islam. They are sinning by not wearing it

but as long as they profess to belief in Allah and His

Messenger then they are muslims.

The truth is you have some valid points and noone should

feel offended. I have always been an advocate for womens

rights in Islam. We have many and I really believe that new

sisters would benefit a lot by studying what their rights are

in Islam. Learning what their responsibilities are and maybe

this would cause a stronger foundation in the Deen so if

they did get divorced, they would be firm in faith.

It is not wrong to marry a man who is muslim and convert.

The Prophet married Juwayriyah when she was still a jew.

weird, every time i've read this Hadith, it's said marriage is half the deen not its completion, and it's been ruled a weak Hadith at that. It was narrated from Anas ibn Maalik radiAllahu 'anhu, that the Messenger of AllaahsallahAllahu aleyhi wasalam said: “Whomever Allaah has blessed with a righteous wife, He has helped him with half of his religion,

so let him fear Allaah with regard to the other half." ... [Narrated by al-Haakim in al-Mustadrak (2/175), al-Tabaraani in al-Awsat (1/294) and al-Bayhaqi in Shu’ab al-Eemaan (4/382). Al-Haakim said: This is a hadeeth with a saheeh isnaad, although they (al-Bukhaari and Muslim) did not narrate it. Al-Dhahabi said in al-Talkhees: it is saheeh. It was classed as hasan by al-Albaani in Saheeh al-Targheeb 2/192.

[sandinista! 1,816]

1. The statement of "whoever marry then his half of deen is complete" is not from the words of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وسلم). The texts that were claimed to be from Allah's Messenger words came in very weak Hadeeths and with different meaning i.e. Allah's Messenger said: whoever is blessed with marrying a pious woman then he was given the bless of having who helps him in his deen..." [tabaraani and Bayhaqi]

[sandinista! 1,816]

When it comes to Islam, I look at the Quran and Sunnah and see if the actions match. ALlah tells the believing women in the Quran to cover so I cover. Other women choose not to cover which is in contradiction to what Allah has ordered the believing woman to do in the Quran. I know what Jihad An Nafs is. I also know what enjoining the good and forbidding the bad means also.

The idea that because I am striving for the sake of Allah

within my self, trying to make sure I pray on time, making

sure that I am aware that all my actions are accountable

etc(which is part of striving feasibilillah), I am not supposed

to correct someone else is incorrect.

You can spend time with your family. Islam tells us to honor

the ties of the womb. This is wajib on us but we do not

celebrate or partake in those celebrations that are

contradictory to our beliefs. Celebrating Easter would be a

contradiction as we do not believe that Jesus died on the

cross so why would anyone wish to sit with anyone and

celebrate that? I consider myself quite balanced but I have

never understood why some muslims think its ok to

celebrate occasions that are clearly in opposition to the

Shahadah. Allah knows best.

correcting others' behavior in the interest of rectifying their

wrongs, yes. in the interest of being smug, self righteous

and whatnot, um not so much. no one who doesn't wear

hijab is going to start doing so after reading what you

wrote. no one. nor is anyone going to alter wrong behaviors or actions after reading that. that's not how it's done. i know full well i make this same error all the time. but i don't call it something it isn't.

[momof1 205]

Hijab is fard and honestly, its not shocking to me that your marriage is so successful. Hijab is fard aka required by Islam and because you made that step, you completed your deen. I think you completely could agree that there are alot of required things in Islam, tenets that need to be followed and its not a decision that should be made quickly or lightly and needs to be completely understood before undertaken. If its really wanted and something that someone will make a commitment to , then becoming a muslim is the right decision. But making bidda, or innovation to a religion by deciding what you want to do selectively isnt respectful to the religion and its not going to help either person in the long run. There are alot of fard things in Islam and its confusing to the man in my opinion when someone says they have reverted or converted and then pick and choose what part of the religion they want to follow

out of everything that I said, you chose this response? I dislike that the success of my almost 9 year marriage is relegated to a piece of fabric. What in the world does hijab have to do with this? My point is that everything is not black and white. You can be strong in your beliefs and still have the same goals and interests as your average american family.

[Myopia 93]

weird, every time i've read this Hadith, it's said marriage is half the deen not its completion, and it's been ruled a weak Hadith at that. It was narrated from Anas ibn Maalik radiAllahu 'anhu, that the Messenger of AllaahsallahAllahu aleyhi wasalam said: “Whomever Allaah has blessed with a righteous wife, He has helped him with half of his religion,

so let him fear Allaah with regard to the other half." ... [Narrated by al-Haakim in al-Mustadrak (2/175), al-Tabaraani in al-Awsat (1/294) and al-Bayhaqi in Shu’ab al-Eemaan (4/382). Al-Haakim said: This is a hadeeth with a saheeh isnaad, although they (al-Bukhaari and Muslim) did not narrate it. Al-Dhahabi said in al-Talkhees: it is saheeh. It was classed as hasan by al-Albaani in Saheeh al-Targheeb 2/192.

The hadeeth is not daeef. The scholars have said that it is saheeh. Shaykh Al Albaani classified it as hasan. Where is it quoted as being weak?

Just to give you some clarification from the classic scholars ,

"Al-Manaawee said in his explanation of this hadeeth, “That is because the greatest trial that takes a significant toll on a person's deen are the desires of the stomach and the desires of the private parts, and a righteous woman safeguards a man from zinaa, which accounts for the first half. Hence, the second half remains and that is the desires of the stomach. Thus he () advised him with taqwaa so he can perfect his deen and obtain istiqaamah.” He also said, He specifically mentioned a righteous wife because a woman who is otherwise may safeguard her husband from zinaa, however she would make him bend his back over trying to obtain worthless things from that which is haraam.” (Al-Faydul-Qadeer: hadeeth nos. 8704)

Additionally "Al-Bayhaqi narrated in Shu’ab al-Eemaan from al-Raqaashi: “When a person gets married he has completed half of his religion, so let him fear Allaah with regard to the other half.” Al-Albaani said of these two hadeeths in Saheeh al-Targheeb wa’l-Tarheeb (1916): “(They are) hasan li ghayrihi.”

I should have said marriage perfects the Deen and completes half.

Bark Allahu Feek for the correction.

[Myopia 93]

correcting others' behavior in the interest of rectifying their

wrongs, yes. in the interest of being smug, self righteous

and whatnot, um not so much. no one who doesn't wear

hijab is going to start doing so after reading what you

wrote. no one. nor is anyone going to alter wrong behaviors or actions after reading that. that's not how it's done. i know full well i make this same error all the time. but i don't call it something it isn't.

Masha Allah. Smug and self righteous? Yes Im about as much of those things as you are in this post to me!

[Beauty for Ashes 257]

out of everything that I said, you chose this response? I dislike that the success of my almost 9 year marriage is relegated to a piece of fabric. What in the world does hijab have to do with this? My point is that everything is not black and white. You can be strong in your beliefs and still have the same goals and interests as your average american family.

The success in your marriage is that you are commited. You are commited to the marriage and you are a muslim and you are a commited muslim so when he married you, if I am to understand correctly, he knew exactly what he was getting, a commited muslim who would fit into his world, who would understand one of the biggest parts of his culture and society, Islam.

There are women on here who are commited to their marriages, making them work and to a religion that they converted and reverted to. They chose Islam because of something inside, not the attractiveness of attracting someone to marry them nor complete the process of getting married. Islam was something they were longing for. Its the cupid conversions that I am talking about. Conversions or reversions not out of a commited understanding of what Islam is going to require because there are things you should do as a muslim and its that whole hearted commitment to Islam that makes it alot easier on the mena person they are marrying.

Not everything is black and white and on the flip side, there are women that reverted in good faith, keep a muslim home that still are not successful in their marriage and nothing is all that black and white on the American side either. Some muslims get more commited to Islam when they get here and when they were in their own country did not go that often to the mosque and listened to music etc and when the mena people get here, out of fear of the unknown or wanting community, become very religious, maybe even more so than the family or background they grew up in. I dont know many of these women although I know they exist, that continue in Islam long after the marriages end to the man they met and brought over here or married while here. Its not easy to get remarried after this event, mostly because they might be older and culturally ,many men are seeking to marry someone from back home , younger and have kids. Their future life may be a vibrant life inside the community but it may not include marriage to someone in the community. That is also a reality to women reverting because they need to be prepared for a different society and understanding of the role of women. A 70 year old in American society may be on a bus trip to Branson and playing bridge and doing things with the red hat women. I dont know if womens groups for aging women exist inside the muslim community but in the years I have been around, I have seen little beyond religious classes and maybe some family events. If a woman is entering this community from the outside and ends up without the spouse she started with, it can be very lonely for her. This is why I was talking about reversion and the social aspects of it. Its not to be offensive..

I don't think there is anything wrong with the discussion we are having. Its talking about motivation behind reverting or converting and I just personally believe ( it doesnt mean everyone does) that there are women who revert because there is another motivation than just religion. For some, its the muslim community whether it be their perception right or wrong thats interesting for them. Its the chance to get married or perhaps meeting a muslim man who made them realise that maybe reversion is a way to get married or live a less lonely life. Is this wrong? I dont necessarily think so but I think not only should women think carefully about embracing another religion but also carefully think about what that change will do to their children and to perhaps talk to her whole family about it. If she still wants to do it, she needs to understand the impact on her kids and her parents and I think this is especially important if her family is religious. If her true goal is to be muslim, then at least she has carefully entered it and studied it as well as talked to family members. The family will have to accept her choice but at least she treated it like a major life change and not some kind of whim

There is nothing more tragic than dragging kids into something entered on a whim, whether it be a marriage or religious change and then not even staying in the relationship that brought about these changes. How confusing for the family?

The consulates look at all these factors and they look at the whole picture . I think the embassies want the best for their citizens and I dont think a reversion helps make the case stronger. I think a reversion before the marriage or meeting them would at least show a compatibility in lifestyles but I dont think it affects the CO s decision. I think they rely much more on online research about the mena person as well as interviews in the neighborhood as well as local government back ground checks and proof of relationship. If someone had not reverted and was thinking about reverting just to help a spouse pass muster, I would tell them its not going to help much.

[msheesha 548]

When it comes to Islam, I look at the Quran and Sunnah and see if the actions match. ALlah tells the believing women in the Quran to cover so I cover. Other women choose not to cover which is in contradiction to what Allah has ordered the believing woman to do in the Quran. I know what Jihad An Nafs is. I also know what enjoining the good and forbidding the bad means also.

The idea that because I am striving for the sake of Allah within my self, trying to make sure I pray on time, making sure that I am aware that all my actions are accountable etc(which is part of striving feasibilillah), I am not supposed to correct someone else is incorrect.

You can spend time with your family. Islam tells us to honor the ties of the womb. This is wajib on us but we do not celebrate or partake in those celebrations that are contradictory to our beliefs. Celebrating Easter would be a contradiction as we do not believe that Jesus died on the cross so why would anyone wish to sit with anyone and celebrate that? I consider myself quite balanced but I have never understood why some muslims think its ok to celebrate occasions that are clearly in opposition to the Shahadah. Allah knows best.

We're not sitting with anyone and celebrating their religion or religious beliefs. We are sitting with family and celebrating the opportunity for all of us to be together and enjoy each others' company. One of the best places to participate in charitable giving is within your family. I think this is also true for interfaith dialogue, understanding, and tolerance. We attend their dinners, get togethers, parties, etc just as they attend our Eid celebrations. My husband and I both agree and have no problem with it, and it's what we prefer.

You can call it Islam lite, or whatever other mocking, negative, accusatory phrasing you wish. There's no need to go back and forth about this. You've said what you believe to be helpful. Enough said.

[msheesha 548]

Masha Allah. Smug and self righteous? Yes Im about as much of those things as you are in this post to me!

It's interesting to me that your positive posts and your posts of agreement are directed towards a poster who takes every opportunity she can to knock Islam, Muslims, and MENA relationships... while your more antagonistic posts/interactions are with the Muslim sisters on here. With that observation, you and HIT can pontificate all you want.... to each other, and have fun with that!

[UmmSqueakster 54]

I dunno, I can't comprehend half of what has been written thus far in this thread, so here are my own 2 cents.

I've known women who's first exposures to islam have been through SOs and who have gone on to be beautiful sisters in the deen. Many even begin to practice more than their spouses, and helped their husbands become better muslims.

And there are those who didn't convert for the sake of Allah (swt).

However, so long as a person appears sincere, I'm not going to comment. If they ask for my advice, I give to the best of my ability as one sister to another.

In the end, if you are sincere in your belief of la ilaha il Allah, Muhammadur rasul Allah, then your first duty is to Allah (swt), to declare your faith in Him and in His message as brought by our master Muhammad (saws). What the consulate thinks about it is far down on the list of worries. Get yourself right with Allah (swt), and then worry about this world.

re: holidays. We don't celebrate. We don't visit my family at that time. As I've explained to them, for Easter especially, we don't believe Jesus (as) was crucified and raised from the dead, so it would by hypocritical of me to partake in a celebration of that important religious ritual for them. I'm more than happy to spend time with them regularly throughout the year, and make other events important family get togethers (like thanksgiving for example).

And as I'm sure anyone who knows me is aware of, I'm about as far from being a salafi as one can be.

[Myopia 93]

It's interesting to me that your positive posts and your posts of agreement are directed towards a poster who takes every opportunity she can to knock Islam, Muslims, and MENA relationships... while your more antagonistic posts/interactions are with the Muslim sisters on here. With that observation, you and HIT can pontificate all you want.... to each other, and have fun with that!

I guess you really did not read my posts at all. Did you read the one where I said no one can be kicked out of Islam for not wearing hijab? What about when I mentioned the Prophet marrying Juwayriyah as a proof that marrying a non muslim is fine in Islam?

I don't know her background, to be honest, I could care less about her background but she made some valid points. I know a lot of sisters who become muslims for their husbands and leave the deen as soon as they get divorced. I know loads of sisters who got burned by MENA men too. Obviously being muslim and being around many sisters, these stories are common.

I responded based on what I read. I was not antagonistic. I mentioned in one post that celebrating those religious festivals was not from Islam. I have zero intention of sugar coating the haq to appease sensitivities.

Sorry.