Islam For All Time?

[Sofiyya 1,687]

I am interested in knowing about the source of the contradictions I see in the postings of some of the converts here. Do you believe that Islam began with the Quran and Muhammad, or do you believe that Adam was the first prophet of Islam and that there were many between him and Muhammad?

If you believe that, then why is when the Message was given to the Arabs the only measure you seem to relate to when talking about Islam? I'm asking this because I see this time and time again, and was inspired to ask when I kept seeing posting about how Christians and Jews who died BEFORE the Quran and Muhammad were exempt from hell, but those during and after the period of Arab Islam were not. This implies that Islam did not exist prior to its delivery to the Arabian pennisula.

It is but one example, but it serves to demonstrate to me, at least, how ethnocentric the vision of Islam is for some of you. You measure the time of Islam by one place and time and ignore how it has existed forever and that there have been Muslims forever.

Is this what you are being taught?

Thanks for your input!

[Henia 11]

Thank you for posting this Szsz... really great post and I too, am curious to read everyone's input.

First off, I should say I am a Muslime, reverted 9 years ago. I was a Roman Catholic before. My reversion came about when as a child I would ask questions about the God, religion and generally life to my family and religious leaders, and got not one answered. Islam later on, offered me these answers.

Of course, you are right ...the message of "one God" did not come about with Islam. And I believe in the commonality of all the religion's of the "People of the Book" And in the study of comparative religion, an Abrahamic religion or Judeo-Abrahamic Faiths (those religions deriving from a common ancient Abraham tradition "Father/Leader of many" ), a patriarch whose life is narrated in the Hebrew Bible/Old Testament, and as a prophet in the Qur'an and also called a prophet in Genesis 20:7. This forms a large group of largely monotheistic religions, including Judaism, Christianity, Islam and the Bahá'í Faith. Abrahamic religions account for more than half of the world's total religious adherents. Many adherents of these religions, however, will reject this grouping of their faiths on the grounds that they contain inherently and fundamentally incompatible ideas concerning Abraham and concerning God.

According to the Jewish tradition, Abraham was the first post-flood person to reject idolatry through rational analysis (Shem and Eber carried on the Tradition from Noah), hence he symbolically appears as a fundamental figure for monotheistic religion. In that sense, Abrahamic religion could be simply called monotheistic religion, but not all monotheistic religions are Abrahamic. In Islam he is considered as the first monotheist in a world where monotheism was lost (Abraham being a prophet in a line of prophets starting with Adam) and is often referred to as Ibrahim al-Hanif or Abraham the Monotheist.

The term, desert monotheism is sometimes used for a similar purpose of comparison in historical contexts, but not for modern faiths. Today, around 3.7 billion people are followers of Abrahamic

For clarification, the holy text of the Muslims is the Quran; for Christians it is the “New” Testament (which, I think, includes the “Old” Testament; for Jews it is what everyone else calls the “Old Testament,” or Tanach (= Torah + Prophets + writings). In addition to this written Law, Jews also have the oral law which was finally written into the Mishna and then into the Talmud.

Judaism, Christianity and Islam see God as a being who created the world and who rules over the universe. God is usually held to have the properties of holiness (separate from sin and incorruptible), justice (fair, right, and true in all His judgments), sovereignty (unthwartable in His will), omnipotence (all-powerful), omniscience (all-knowing), omni benevolence (all-loving), omnipresence (present everywhere at the same time), and immortality (eternal and everlasting). He is also believed to be transcendent, meaning that He is outside space and outside time, and therefore eternal and unable to be changed by earthly forces or anything else within His creation.

Jews, Christians and Muslims often conceive of God as a personal God, with a will and personality. However, many rationalist philosophers felt that one should not view God as personal, and that such personal descriptions of God are only meant as metaphors, as it was widely viewed that God's transcendence meant that He could not act in the lives of ordinary people.

Throughout Islamic history, Muslims have used ayats (verses) to justify a variety of positions towards non-Muslims. In some places and times, Muslims showed a great deal of tolerance towards non-Muslims; in other places and times non-Muslims were treated as enemies and persecuted.

]

And do not dispute with the followers of the Book except by what is best, except those of them who act unjustly, and say: We believe in that which has been revealed to us and revealed to you, and our God and your God is One, and to Him do we submit. 29:46

There are also many statements that promote an adversarial relationship. For example:

• Fight those who believe not in God nor the Last Day, nor hold forbidden that which hath been forbidden by God and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. 9:29
  

• O you who believe! Do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends/protecters; they are friends/protecters of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend/protecter, then surely he is one of them; surely God does not guide the unjust people. 5:51
  

• And ye know of those of you who broke the Sabbath, how We said unto them: Be ye apes, despised and hated! 2:65
  

• And whoso seeketh as religion other than the Surrender (to God) it will not be accepted from him, and he will be a loser in the Hereafter. 3:85
  

In other places the Qur'an says:

• Not all of them are alike; a party of the people of the Scripture stand for the right, they recite the Verses of God during the hours of the night, prostrating themselves in prayer. They believe in God and the Last Day; they enjoin Al-Ma'rûf and forbid Al-Munkar ; and they hasten in (all) good works; and they are among the righteous. And whatever good they do, nothing will be rejected of them; for God knows well those who are Al-Muttaqûn .(3:113-115)
  

• And there are, certainly, among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), those who believe in God and in that which has been revealed to you, and in that which has been revealed to them, humbling themselves before God. They do not sell the Verses of God for a little price, for them is a reward with their Lord. Surely, God is Swift in account. '(3:199)'
  

• Verily! Those who believe and those who are Jews and Christians, and Sabians, whoever believes in God and the Last Day and do righteous good deeds shall have their reward with their Lord, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve . 2:62
  

• Say (O Muhammad ): "O people of the Scripture : Come to a word that is just between us and you, that we worship none but God, and that we associate no partners with Him, and that none of us shall take others as lords besides God. 3:64
  

Various faiths of the People of the Book share several qualities:

• They practice Tawheed (monotheismÖ.
  
• They share some of the same prophets, such as Moses and Jesus.
  
• They recognize life after death, judgement, heaven, and angels, and have many similar eschatological beliefs that according to some scholars are due to the influences of Zoroastrianism.
  
• They share similar beliefs regarding the Creation specifically, in the lives of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden
  

And in enclosing I am Muslime, not a new muslim, but still I am learning everyday and willing to learn... anything good I say comes from Allah (swt) while all the mistakes are mine.

[type2negative 0]

I am interested in knowing about the source of the contradictions I see in the postings of some of the converts here. Do you believe that Islam began with the Quran and Muhammad, or do you believe that Adam was the first prophet of Islam and that there were many between him and Muhammad?

If you believe that, then why is when the Message was given to the Arabs the only measure you seem to relate to when talking about Islam? I'm asking this because I see this time and time again, and was inspired to ask when I kept seeing posting about how Christians and Jews who died BEFORE the Quran and Muhammad were exempt from hell, but those during and after the period of Arab Islam were not. This implies that Islam did not exist prior to its delivery to the Arabian pennisula.

It is but one example, but it serves to demonstrate to me, at least, how ethnocentric the vision of Islam is for some of you. You measure the time of Islam by one place and time and ignore how it has existed forever and that there have been Muslims forever.

Is this what you are being taught?

Thanks for your input!

wow... Ehhhh. What do you believe???(out of curiousity).

[samir_shannon 0]

Henia that was very insightful. The old testement in our religion is the old law. the law of Abraham and Moses. ( the ten commandments given to moses). the new testement is the birth, baptism, life, crucifixion, and resurection of Jesus. Also the book of revelation that was written by the apostle John. the old testement and the torah are very similar of course because it ws Jewish law. we as christians do not have the same law anymore because of the covenant. when Jesus died everything was cleansed and made clean. i dont know very much about islam, but i recall someone telling me it started with Ishmael the son of Abraham and Hagar. god promised Isaac (the chosen child the son of Abraham and Sarah) a great nation and people. as far as i know i dont think islam started from adam.. because if it did then i dont think we would have had Jewish law in the old testament. i want to add i am not trying to be offensive, just found what Henia posted was very insightful and wanted to contribute.

Henia forgot to mention, as far as the Quran goes about christians and jews, it is very confusing to a non-muslim to understand because those examples it is contradictary. some parts of the quran show love and respect for the people of the book and some parts just show hate and bitterness. maybe thats why some radicall islamists feel the way they do. i have never personally had a muslim treat me bad at all. (in person) one thing i am confused with is Samir cant eat meat slaughtered by a christian but, he can marry one. that part i REALLY dont get but, oh well... such is life. goodnight everyone. i was asleep earlier and a bad thunderstorm woke me up. pray for us in north carolina because ernesto is on its way here. the last tropical storm we had terrible flooding in this area. (

I am interested in knowing about the source of the contradictions I see in the postings of some of the converts here. Do you believe that Islam began with the Quran and Muhammad, or do you believe that Adam was the first prophet of Islam and that there were many between him and Muhammad?

If you believe that, then why is when the Message was given to the Arabs the only measure you seem to relate to when talking about Islam? I'm asking this because I see this time and time again, and was inspired to ask when I kept seeing posting about how Christians and Jews who died BEFORE the Quran and Muhammad were exempt from hell, but those during and after the period of Arab Islam were not. This implies that Islam did not exist prior to its delivery to the Arabian pennisula.

It is but one example, but it serves to demonstrate to me, at least, how ethnocentric the vision of Islam is for some of you. You measure the time of Islam by one place and time and ignore how it has existed forever and that there have been Muslims forever.

Is this what you are being taught?

Thanks for your input!

wow... Ehhhh. What do you believe???(out of curiousity).

to give my opinion this is what i believe...... no one in the Earth can tell me you or anyone else here who is going to hell and who isnt. that is only answered by God. he is the judge. not any of us. goodnight.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Of course, you are right ...the message of "one God" did not come about with Islam.

Thanks, Henia, but I didn't see anything in your statement that related to my question.

I need to correct this statement because I'm saying, as does the Quran, that Adam was the first prophet of Islam, so Islam (submission to the Will of God) has existed since the beginning of mankind. The Quran teaches that the Message has been spread throughout the earth since, and the Arabs did not receive it first.

So, that is the premise of my question. Since that is what the Quran teaches that Islam goes back farther than the events on the Arabian penninsula, why is it that converts, in particular, are being taught that all things Islam began there, sin is measured from there, and so we get statements that say that Christians and Jews who died before Islam came to the Arabs may enter heaven, but those since, who did not become Muslims, will go to hell. Why do the Arabs figure so predominantly in your thinking?

I don't get it. The Quran says that the ahl al kitab received the Message BEFORE the Arabs, yet there are Muslims here who don't consider Abraham or Jesus as Messengers when they use Muhammad as a cut-off for those who recived the Message BEFORE Muhammad. When Allah says in the Quran that there will be Christians and Jews who will enter heaven, Muhammad is used as the cut-off time for them to become Muslims. Only the Quran doesn't say that Christians and Jews MUST become Muslims to go to heaven, and the solution for that, I'm told, is that Christians and Jews who died before the revelations in Mecca can go to heaven.

So I'm curious how this thinking is rationalized without making Allah contradict Himself and the timeline of his Message.

wow... Ehhhh. What do you believe???(out of curiousity).

I believe that Allah has required submission to His Will throught the timeline of all mankind, since Adam and Hawa. At least, that's what He says. He never tells us that Islam began with Muhammad, like so many seem to believe.

BTW, this is not a thread intended to explore comparative religion between Islam and Christianity. This quetion is for Muslims. Please begin a new thread for that discussion. Thank you!

Edited August 31, 2006 by szsz

[Veiled Princess 1]

Samir cant eat meat slaughtered by a christian

We are allowed to eat meat slaughtered by people of the book.

To answer the question posed....

The reason I focus on Islam as explained in the Quran and Sunnah of the final messenger of Islam is because Allah has told us in His book that the previous messages were corrupted so there is nothing for us to refer back to. We can't refer to the talmud because there is corruption in it, we can't refer to the injil because there is corruption in it. The Quran is the only book that has not been corrupted (and even that can only be guaranteed if it's in it's original state of Arabic). The Sunnahs of the previous prophets and messengers have been lost and replaced with lies with the execption of Muhammad's Sunnah so we can only follow his.

When the Quran was revealed it became obligatory on all believers to accept it. Likewise, when Muhammad came as the final prophet it became comulsory for all believers to accept him as such. Anyone who denies either are no longer considered to be believers.

So, that is the premise of my question. Since that is what the Quran teaches that Islam goes back farther than the events on the Arabian penninsula, why is it that converts, in particular, are being taught that all things Islam began there, sin is measured from there, and so we get statements that say that Christians and Jews who died before Islam came to the Arabs may enter heaven, but those since, who did not become Muslims, will go to hell. Why do the Arabs figure so predominantly in your thinking?

It has nothing to do with the Arabs and is about accepting the message and messenger of Allah after it has been revealed.

I don't get it. The Quran says that the ahl al kitab received the Message BEFORE the Arabs, yet there are Muslims here who don't consider Abraham or Jesus as Messengers when they use Muhammad as a cut-off for those who recived the Message BEFORE Muhammad. When Allah says in the Quran that there will be Christians and Jews who will enter heaven, Muhammad is used as the cut-off time for them to become Muslims. Only the Quran doesn't say that Christians and Jews MUST become Muslims to go to heaven, and the solution for that, I'm told, is that Christians and Jews who died before the revelations in Mecca can go to heaven.

There are absolutely no people of the book alive today or since the time of Muhammad and the revelation of the Quran who recieved their information BEFORE Muhammad.

So I'm curious how this thinking is rationalized without making Allah contradict Himself and the timeline of his Message.

Allah does not contradict Himself. You just choose not to understand.

wow... Ehhhh. What do you believe???(out of curiousity).

I believe that Allah has required submission to His Will throught the timeline of all mankind, since Adam and Hawa. At least, that's what He says. He never tells us that Islam began with Muhammad, like so many seem to believe.

I have not heard anyone here claim that Islam began with Muhammad. You are making up fantasies again

BTW, this is not a thread intended to explore comparative religion between Islam and Christianity. This quetion is for Muslims. Please begin a new thread for that discussion. Thank you!

Anyone is free to post anything they want in any VJ thread as long as it doesn't violate the TOS.

[samir_shannon 0]

Of course, you are right ...the message of "one God" did not come about with Islam.

Thanks, Henia, but I didn't see anything in your statement that related to my question.

I need to correct this statement because I'm saying, as does the Quran, that Adam was the first prophet of Islam, so Islam (submission to the Will of God) has existed since the beginning of mankind. The Quran teaches that the Message has been spread throughout the earth since, and the Arabs did not receive it first.

So, that is the premise of my question. Since that is what the Quran teaches that Islam goes back farther than the events on the Arabian penninsula, why is it that converts, in particular, are being taught that all things Islam began there, sin is measured from there, and so we get statements that say that Christians and Jews who died before Islam came to the Arabs may enter heaven, but those since, who did not become Muslims, will go to hell. Why do the Arabs figure so predominantly in your thinking?

I don't get it. The Quran says that the ahl al kitab received the Message BEFORE the Arabs, yet there are Muslims here who don't consider Abraham or Jesus as Messengers when they use Muhammad as a cut-off for those who recived the Message BEFORE Muhammad. When Allah says in the Quran that there will be Christians and Jews who will enter heaven, Muhammad is used as the cut-off time for them to become Muslims. Only the Quran doesn't say that Christians and Jews MUST become Muslims to go to heaven, and the solution for that, I'm told, is that Christians and Jews who died before the revelations in Mecca can go to heaven.

So I'm curious how this thinking is rationalized without making Allah contradict Himself and the timeline of his Message.

wow... Ehhhh. What do you believe???(out of curiousity).

I believe that Allah has required submission to His Will throught the timeline of all mankind, since Adam and Hawa. At least, that's what He says. He never tells us that Islam began with Muhammad, like so many seem to believe.

BTW, this is not a thread intended to explore comparative religion between Islam and Christianity. This quetion is for Muslims. Please begin a new thread for that discussion. Thank you!

In response to this........When Allah says in the Quran that there will be Christians and Jews who will enter heaven, Muhammad is used as the cut-off time for them to become Muslims. Only the Quran doesn't say that Christians and Jews MUST become Muslims to go to heaven, and the solution for that, I'm told, is that Christians and Jews who died before the revelations in Mecca can go to heaven.

i think one day you ae going to be very surprised. my messiah didnt tell us anything about islam whatsoever. it isnt evven mentioned. i cant see how islam was around before muhammed. there is no reference to it in the old law and certainly not in the new law. Jesus told us specifically that the only way to the father was through him. i dont understand how you can say islam has been around since the days of Adam. i find this impossible. samir told me to tell you that islam doesnt mean submission (i asked him ) he said it meant peace. i dont know if he understood the word submission in english or not (i am kinda sure he did).

[Veiled Princess 1]

i think one day you ae going to be very surprised. my messiah didnt tell us anything about islam whatsoever. it isnt evven mentioned. i cant see how islam was around before muhammed. there is no reference to it in the old law and certainly not in the new law. Jesus told us specifically that the only way to the father was through him. i dont understand how you can say islam has been around since the days of Adam. i find this impossible. samir told me to tell you that islam doesnt mean submission (i asked him ) he said it meant peace. i dont know if he understood the word submission in english or not (i am kinda sure he did).

I studied the bible all my life and in my opinion it is mentioned and predicted. I also believe that Jesus taugh Islam and not christianity and I formed that opinion from reading the bible and those books left out of the bible that were written by his followers, long before I ever even heard of Islam or read the Quran.

There is also a lot of corruption in the bible from the hands of men so you can only take anything in it with a grain of salt. The majority of what is said to have been spoken by or taught by Jesus in the bible has no eye witness and is only delusions of a man of whom Jesus was quoted as calling "decieved" in the gospel of Barnabas.

I hope that does not sound too offensive but as you stated... I am free to express my opinion just as you are.

Islamically speaking, some words have two meanings... the religious meaning and the linguistic meaning... by this account Islam means both.... peace and submission to Allah.

[noura 0]

i'm so over this thread... some of the posts are really interesting, but sifting thru the crudola is really sucking giant rocks, so, gotta pass on the rest of this - it's tired really.... tired, tired, and retired!

[lostinlove228 0]

I think you guys are over complecating thing. No offense. Basically We do believe that islam is the Religion of Adam. We believe that Judiasim in its origins was Islam, Chirstianity was Islam in it's Orgins and Adam as the first person came witht Islamic Message. As Time went by the two previous religions where changed by man and therefore corrupt. So Islam has been here throughout all time. When the Prophet Mohamad Brought back the message, we where promised that this will be the las Messenger and the message with stay in tact.

[samir_shannon 0]

I politely disagree in your views of Jesus and the holy gospel. but then again i have address how i felt about muhammed so no harm done. but i find this very insightful. thank you for the conversation. god bless

[ya falaha! 0]

There are some really good, easy to understand books out there on Islam. One of my favorites is..Teach Yourself Islam by Ruqaiyyah Maqsood. Instead of shoving hard to grasp concepts down everyone's throat start with the simple concepts. I believe if you're gonna take the step to marry a Muslim guy...at least try to understand, learn about and at the very least..."tolerate" his religion. You will find that most Muslims even those born and raised overseas have at least an idea about the doctrines of Christianity and Judaism. It's in the Quran.

[noura 0]

There are some really good, easy to understand books out there on Islam. One of my favorites is..Teach Yourself Islam by Ruqaiyyah Maqsood. Instead of shoving hard to grasp concepts down everyone's throat start with the simple concepts. I believe if you're gonna take the step to marry a Muslim guy...at least try to understand, learn about and at the very least..."tolerate" his religion. You will find that most Muslims even those born and raised overseas have at least an idea about the doctrines of Christianity and Judaism. It's in the Quran.

I read this book and give it a as did Said (I brought it w/ me to Maroc, left it w/ him) It was insightful and not overcomplicated as a starter/overview. I also read "The 'Everything' Book about Islam" - apparantly "Everything" has a series of books, this one was on Islam and I thought well done. My humble little opinon.

Gotta start somewhere and frankly, starting in the Quran was overwhelming for me.

[ya falaha! 0]

I agree. Although the Quran would be a starting point it can be hard to grasp. Some ladies who marry Muslim men don't plan on reverting and that's fine...you should never revert for a man. These ladies need things to help them understand Islam. As Muslimahs we need to be a little more gentle in our approach sometimes. Let's not scare them off

[Veiled Princess 1]

I agree. Although the Quran would be a starting point it can be hard to grasp. Some ladies who marry Muslim men don't plan on reverting and that's fine...you should never revert for a man. These ladies need things to help them understand Islam. As Muslimahs we need to be a little more gentle in our approach sometimes. Let's not scare them off

Speaking for myself, it's not necessarily about scaring them off but it's highly irritating when some of those who are married to or marrying muslims here obviously have no respect whatsoever for Islam. I feel sorry for some of these men.