The hoping not to be denied at Casablanca thread

[msheesha 548]

I wasn't 'judging' or 'bashing.' Neither am I wishing any one ill-will. I don't see where I said 'my way was the best/right way' or that 'only my relationship is genuine' so I'm not sure where you got that from. I am a big advocate of the 'whatever floats your boat, man' philosophy.

Being apart is one of the hardest things about this proccess and I remember it vividly and I wouldn't wish it upon my worst enemy.

I'm just giving my opinion as a neutral, third party observer who is not emotionally invested in what's going on in Casa. I know that people are looking for 'support' but often support groups will only tell each other what they WANT to hear instead of what they NEED to hear or SHOULD hear. Raging or rating against the CO's is of no use. They are simply doing their job which is confounded by vulnerable women who go refuse to listen to reason or watch out for the warning signs. Unfortunately or not, they do go by 'conventional,' or 'real world' standards. They look at a relationship and say 'does this make sense?' If it doesn't make sense to me, who is simply a uninterested party in the situation, how do you expect them to buy it, especially given the context and country. I see a 60 year old, sagging, toothless, rich guy with a hot, nubile 19 year old. My LOGIC says, she's after his money. Now, could she possibly be madly and deeply in love with him? Sure. Not impossible. But improbable. Like I said, it's simply 'my opinion' -- 'take it or leave it.'

Most people are way too emotional about this process and I'll admit it's hard to be objective. However, you need to be methodical and rational about it and pinpoint your red-flags so that you're prepared to confront them head-on instead of brushing them under the rug, burying your head in the sand and putting up a giant banner that reads 'NOT MY MAN.'

It's unfortunate that the situation has deteriorated and a 'few apples have spoilt the whole bunch,' so to speak.

I agree that ranting and raving about the CO's, citing their lack of qualifications, and being emotional and reactionary to denials is of no use. I also highlighted in this thread that I think it's dangerous. If you wanted to point that out, it would have been better to not do so in such a generalized, harsh way, imho. Also, you say you're not judging, but when you decide what someone NEEDS and SHOULD hear, you are judging.

And, if you can cite where you get the data that Casa is the largest fraud consulate in the world, it'd be great. I think seeing that data would be a help to us all. thanks.

[treehugger 23]

Believe me...after my past experience I still had a bit of doubt too until I lived with him and his family for 3 mths, and how his parents are together & all of his siblings with their spouses.

I don't think many Western women realise what a big deal it is to live with their MENA boyfriends/fiances (and especially at his parents' house), and that MENA women usually have the religious ceremony but don't live with their husbands until after the 'big wedding' even though that may be months or even years later. It just shows what a huge culture clash there is between the two sides, and I've seen it happen over and over again with MENA/Western couples in real life. One may think it's not a big deal now, but for most couples (admittedly not all) this difference in culture will rear its head several times, especially when there are children.

It's this 'turning a blind eye' to MENA cultural norms that makes me wonder if a guy's family are indirectly helping their son.

Edited June 23, 2010 by treehugger

[sachinky 465]

And to clarify--I meant 'here' on VJ, as a whole. I'm basing my opinions on a lot of old threads I've read over the last year or so I've been on VJ. I don't know anyone on this thread, either superficially or personally.

And Monica--I do think you've got the right attitude about this which is why you will eventually succeed. This is just an obstacle. Good luck!

What bugs me is when people with shining, obvious red flags will put on blinders and say their case is straightforward. Y'know, 'cause we 'love' each other.' My case was relatively straightforward, but I went with a suitcase (I kid you not) full of evidence, covering every angle I could think of. My interview lasted 3 minutes, maybe, not one piece of evidence was asked for. But I'm still glad I did my homework and went prepared. At the end of the day, that's all we can do. Be prepared. For every outcome and eventuality. The Boy Scouts' had it right.

[KittyPollitt 284]

And, out of curiousity, where do you get the data that Casablanca is largest fraud consulate in the world?

I imagine this statement is made under assumption, after hanging around in MENA and reading the kind of horror stories that come out of there.. But Guayaquil, Ecuador is right up there- if Casa is a beast with claws, Guayaquil is a beast with teeth- same rule applies with both: know what you're up against, go in prepared for battle, and be ready to lick some wounds when it's all over..

[sachinky 465]

I don't have any official DOS statistics to back it up but given the disproprionate rate of denials that seems to come out of Casa and the grilling (male) beneficiaries undergo and the warning that's on the offical US embassy's website page (which I haven't seen in, say, the US Consulate General in India's webpage) leads me to believe that Casa, along with Lagos, and HCMC, is one of the highest fraud consulate. Morocco also happens to be T country, if I'm not mistaken. I just thought it was common knowledge by now. There are also some interesting articles and reports written by former COs and consular staff that I don't have the link to. Those weren't specific to Morocco but made for interesting reading.

Edited June 23, 2010 by sachinky

[KittyPollitt 284]

Another Casa VJ interview tomorrow, bonne chance Driss and Alicia

[Always+Forever 7]

I don't think many Western women realise what a big deal it is to live with their MENA boyfriends/fiances (and especially at his parents' house), and that MENA women usually have the religious ceremony but don't live with their husbands until after the 'big wedding' even though that may be months or even years later. It just shows what a huge culture clash there is between the two sides, and I've seen it happen over and over again with MENA/Western couples in real life. One may think it's not a big deal now, but for most couples (admittedly not all) this difference in culture will rear its head several times, especially when there are children.

It's this 'turning a blind eye' to MENA cultural norms that makes me wonder if a guy's family are indirectly helping their son.

I hear what you are saying also, but I think it also depends on the family. Cuz I think a lot of that depends how strong their beliefs may be, life experiences with other ciltures, etc. Some have been to other countries or been around ppl from other cultures since they were young, so they may have different views then the others that live in the "country" and have not experienced anything outside of where they live. And every case is different. My daughter & I had our own room on a different floor, and were never left alone together. I know how the culture works there, and I think his family also understands alot about mine, but they also know that staying in their house is the only way for us to spend time together to get to know eachother face to face. Which is done there between engaged couples with a family member supervision. So I think its hard to judge all cases, because each one is different for either own reasons. But I also know that some ignore their culture/beliefs to get that green ticket for their child. I think everyone should know as much as they can about their SOs culture & vice versa to truely understand eachother & why things are done the way they are.

Monica

Another Casa VJ interview tomorrow, bonne chance Driss and Alicia

SORRY SARAH...i KEEP getting drawn in...LOL

Hoping for some more good news tomorrow!!! I wanna party dance all through your interview Sarah!!!

Monica

[treehugger 23]

I hear what you are saying also, but I think it also depends on the family. Cuz I think a lot of that depends how strong their beliefs may be, life experiences with other ciltures, etc. Some have been to other countries or been around ppl from other cultures since they were young, so they may have different views then the others that live in the "country" and have not experienced anything outside of where they live.

Monica, I admire you for taking my post in the spirit that it's meant - certainly not an attack on you or anyone else on here. I agree with Sachinky, it's this attitude that will see you through I just wanted to add that I know MENA families living here in the UK who have been here for forty years or more, who come from a long line of highly educated, highly cultured people and who aren't even that religious, and yet they still live by those norms.

Anyway, sorry squeaky, you're absolutely right Good luck to you and everyone else with an upcoming interview

[Crossed_fingers 128]

I thought I'd pipe in as I was one of the people earlier in this thread whining a bit about the Casa CO's. I recognize that they have difficult jobs and I happen to highly suspicious of a very large number of couples trying to get through Casa. When I see some of the "classic signs" (large age difference, large looks disparity, lack of a common language, very short courtship, one brief meeting before deciding to take the plunge, nothing in common religiously or socially or educationally, heaven forbid he has asked or hinted around for money, and so on) I have my doubts. I can't see into anyone's specific relationship and of course there are some genuine love matches despite what appear on the outside to be glaring obstacles, but on the whole if it looks like a relationship you'd almost never see among two Moroccan citizens or among two American citizens, "immigration benefit" is the obvious thing that comes to mind when looking for a reason about why it exists, especially in such high numbers, in Moroccan-American relationships.

My point wasn't to just bash the CO's or argue that scammers who might prey on the most vulnerable women should be rewarded with immediate green cards. What concerns me, though, is that there seems to be a trend developing in Casa where the couples getting rejected don't fall into the "obvious red flag" category. To be clear, I haven't even filed any visa paperwork (yet) and I have no experience with Casa (yet). As I start to gather evidence and look critically at my relationship to anticipate any concerns the CO's might have, I find it frustrating that there aren't clearer standards. To my knowledge - which I admit is largely conjecture, based on anecdotes I've read about on the internet - it doesn't seem to me that there is a very high fraud rate among Moroccan-American couples who have more in common and who took more time getting to know each other (in other words, Moroccan-American couples that are similar to couples you'd routinely see in either America or Morocco). Maybe I'm just flat wrong, and I welcome any statistics or sources that contradict that. And as Sarah has said, it seems like Casa CO's frequently don't even look at the evidence or give the man an opportunity to make his case. What I wanted to convey in my earlier posts is that Morocco undoubtedly IS a very high fraud country, but I'm not convinced that the individual couples appearing before the CO's are being given fair and consistent opportunities to demonstrate why they aren't frauds - especially when their stories are not rife with the "classic signs."

[Crossed_fingers 128]

Sorry, I was typing during the attempt to get the thread back on track. Sorry for keeping the can of worms open!

Good luck to those whose interviews are around the corner!

[Always+Forever 7]

My point wasn't to just bash the CO's or argue that scammers who might prey on the most vulnerable women should be rewarded with immediate green cards. What concerns me, though, is that there seems to be a trend developing in Casa where the couples getting rejected don't fall into the "obvious red flag" category. To be clear, I haven't even filed any visa paperwork (yet) and I have no experience with Casa (yet). As I start to gather evidence and look critically at my relationship to anticipate any concerns the CO's might have, I find it frustrating that there aren't clearer standards. To my knowledge - which I admit is largely conjecture, based on anecdotes I've read about on the internet - it doesn't seem to me that there is a very high fraud rate among Moroccan-American couples who have more in common and who took more time getting to know each other (in other words, Moroccan-American couples that are similar to couples you'd routinely see in either America or Morocco). Maybe I'm just flat wrong, and I welcome any statistics or sources that contradict that. And as Sarah has said, it seems like Casa CO's frequently don't even look at the evidence or give the man an opportunity to make his case. What I wanted to convey in my earlier posts is that Morocco undoubtedly IS a very high fraud country, but I'm not convinced that the individual couples appearing before the CO's are being given fair and consistent opportunities to demonstrate why they aren't frauds - especially when their stories are not rife with the "classic signs."

HERE HERE...I completely agree...I have NO clue why they are denying some of our cases with any only reason listed as 221(g)...what does that even mean??? How can I prove them wrong with NO real reason??? If someone sees something I don't that seems like a red flag...PLEASE tell me!!! I WANT u to be blunt and to the point...don't worry about hurting my feelings Ok...maybe i'm still a LITTLE frustrated...lol...but everything for a reason right??

Monica

[KittyPollitt 284]

Sorry, I was typing during the attempt to get the thread back on track. Sorry for keeping the can of worms open!

Good luck to those whose interviews are around the corner!

You know, don't be sorry- the more I think about it, this thread isn't just about saying "YAY!" when someone's approved and "BOO" when someone's denied, it's about DEALING with our situations, and part of that is discussing and trying to get a handle on why Casablanca is so tough, and what we can do to prepare for it..

[Crossed_fingers 128]

I have wondered why the surge in denials. If there even really is a surge in denials. Since everything is based on anecdotes, it sure "feels" that way reading VJ but maybe that's not even the case overall! The thing that I find unusual is that if the denials ARE actually increasing it's got to be because of bad feedback from somewhere, whether a top-down government thing, like ICE or some government agency located in the US complaining that too many frauds were getting through, or from angry USC ex-spouses who contacted the consulate and blamed them for letting in their fraudulent ex. In other words, if Casablanca weren't hearing from SOMEWHERE that frauds were making it into America, there would be no reason to get tougher on new couples. Yet several posters have indicated that Casablanca is being questioned or possibly even investigated for all the denials, which implies that there is a push-back in the other direction. Who knows...maybe senators have just been saying that to make their constituents feel better, or maybe there was a miscommunication somewhere and they were just being empathetic.

So, here's a question for those of you with more experience on this board than me. Do we see any specific areas where Casa has toughened up? It seems like age difference is no longer as much of a red flag as it used to be, not that the consulate is going any easier on couples with big age differences but in the sense that they are getting tougher on couples without that issue. Monica's SO had fluency in English and they were denied, but I believe Zaytoona's SO was also fluent in English and he was approved. Has anyone else seen a trend there? As I recall, in years passed, poor English had been a frequent reason for denials. Or what about with the number of visits, the length of those visits, and the overall length of the courtship? Perhaps Casablanca has a new unwritten standard there.

I know many of these things can't be changed. You love who you love, and there are some red flags that can be addressed but not eliminated. But if there are any specific trends we can identify that would probably be helpful.

Edited June 24, 2010 by Crossed_fingers

[Always+Forever 7]

I have wondered why the surge in denials. If there even really is a surge in denials. Since everything is based on anecdotes, it sure "feels" that way reading VJ but maybe that's not even the case overall! The thing that I find unusual is that if the denials ARE actually increasing it's got to be because of bad feedback from somewhere, whether a top-down government thing, like ICE or some government agency located in the US complaining that too many frauds were getting through, or from angry USC ex-spouses who contacted the consulate and blamed them for letting in their fraudulent ex. In other words, if Casablanca weren't hearing from SOMEWHERE that frauds were making it into America, there would be no reason to get tougher on new couples. Yet several posters have indicated that Casablanca is being questioned or possibly even investigated for all the denials, which implies that there is a push-back in the other direction. Who knows...maybe senators have just been saying that to make their constituents feel better, or maybe there was a miscommunication somewhere and they were just being empathetic.

So, here's a question for those of you with more experience on this board than me. Do we see any specific areas where Casa has toughened up? It seems like age difference is no longer as much of a red flag as it used to be, not that the consulate is going any easier on couples with big age differences but in the sense that they are getting tougher on couples without that issue. Monica's SO had fluency in English and they were denied, but I believe Zaytoona's SO was also fluent in English and he was approved. Has anyone else seen a trend there? As I recall, in years passed, poor English had been a frequent reason for denials. Or what about with the number of visits, the length of those visits, and the overall length of the courtship? Perhaps Casablanca has a new unwritten standard there.

I know many of these things can't be changed. You love who you love, and there are some red flags that can be addressed but not eliminated. But if there are any specific trends we can identify that would probably be helpful.

Zaytoona's SO was approved...got the visa 3 days later. And Hicham didn't propose for 10 mths, been together 1 yr 5 mths, 2 visits, total time in person together 4 months.

[Crossed_fingers 128]

Zaytoona's SO was approved...got the visa 3 days later. And Hicham didn't propose for 10 mths, been together 1 yr 5 mths, 2 visits, total time in person together 4 months.

Yep, sorry, I realized I typo'd that after I hit post. I edited to correct that Zaytoona's SO was approved.

Someone raised the point earlier, I can't remember if it was in this thread or another, that Casablanca suggests getting to know someone at least a year on its fraud warning. I wonder if they are looking harder at timing? And I wonder if they only look at the time before the filing started. It didn't seem like they took your 2nd visit into account at all, unfortunately.