islamic marriage and recognized

[KittyPollitt 284]

I made an argument. Can someone show where I'm wrong?

[Muh and me 18]

Why would anyone want to engage in a discussion with you when you insist on deriding their marriages?

Also, Squeaky caterwauls. I do not. She's been caterwauling quite a bit lately, missing her daddy, my fake husband AbuS.

Girlfriend, I am trying to send you a message empty your mailbox please some?

[aisha kandisha 0]

Saying that Im wrong and proving that I'm wrong are two different things. I've been courteous enough to state a case, but no one has the cojones to dispute it with facts. There are people here who agree with me and people who don't. I would take all this denial and catterwalling more seriously if it wasn't coming from women who are defending their own fake marriages. The dumbing down of Muslims and the poverty of scholarship has been slow and insidious, with sad consequences.

I asked for the courtesy of a civil exchange of ideas, but there is one up to it, some seeing this as entertainment. I did what some only give lip service to and studied and learned. I take comfort in the efforts Ive shared. At least I have done that much, which is more than can be honestly said of my critics.

I have a budget meeting to attend. Checking back later, I hope to discover that there is one among you who is willing to stand apart from the pack and think independently.

Marriage by Hanafi:

http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=...37&CATE=167

The marriage contract is valid in the presence of the subsequent conditions, though prohibitively disliked (Makruh Tahreeman) according to the Hanafi madhab. (Raddul Muhtar, Fat'hul Qadeer 3:228)

The two essential conditions that have to be met for the contract to be legitimate are:

1-There has to be a vocal offer (ijab) and acceptance (qabul). Hence, a written one would not be sufficient. (Fat'hul Qadeer 3:190)

2-The presence of two male witnesses, if not, one male and two female witnesses. If the marriage contract is between a Muslim and non-Muslim, a 'Muslim' witness is not a requisite. (Fat'hul Qadeer, Raddul Muhtar)

In this situation, there was one male witness and one female. If another woman, or a another man was present at the time of the offer and acceptance,

-who was sane and mature,

-who heard the offer and acceptance

-and knew it was a marital contract (this is a correct 'sahih' additional condition in the madhab. See: al-Jawharah al-Nayirah, Fat'hul Qadeer 3:204), it will be valid, if not, it will be invalid.

To mention the dowry is not a condition for the validity of a contract. In fact, even if one marries on the condition that a dowry is not due, the marriage will be classified valid. (al-Hidayah 1:238, Durarul hukkam)

Civil registration is not listed as a requirement for a valid contract. Only two requirements have to be met for the marriage to be valid - it may be makruh but it is not haram.

From the same site

http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?id=2123

12. Some masjids and imams have the legal capacity to solemnize a marriage which is then recognized by the state, county or local council. This is extremely beneficial as it does not entail re-performing the marriage again in a civil ceremony.

Nothing about couple being in a "fake marriage" or fornicators until this time.

From Islam QA to get a different perspective

If the basic conditions of marriage, such as the proposal and acceptance, and consent of the woman’s wali (guardian), are met in the presence of two witnesses, or by announcing this marriage contract, then the woman becomes the wife of the man, and it is permissible for each of them to enjoy intimacy with the other.

according to Maliki fiqh http://lamppostproductions.com/files/artic...orce-Maliki.pdf which lists four elements that are required, none of which include registration, and it goes on to list their conditions.

[BellaChele68 4]

Wow, I'm confused....first of all what is Orfi?

In July my husband were married in a full traditional Pakistani Nikkah and had an Islamic Scholar, Judge and attorneys present for both my husband and myself. We are in love, we followed every letter of the Islamic laws (including the morality code before marriage), had our contract signed, witnessed, verified by all the legal minds at the ceremony and registered in Islamabad.

The US has fully recognized our translated Nikkah as a valid and binding marriage and I have had no problems changing my Social Security Card name, legal documents and applying for my husband's Visa. So IF you do marry legally and do all your paperwork properly the US WILL consider you legally married and bound to your spouse.

[UmmSqueakster 54]

I'm not a scholar. I don't think I've ever claimed to be a scholar. To claim that scholarship is poor and stale based on the words of this poor faqir is like claiming that the state of classical music is in decline based on the winter recital of a 6th grade orchestra scratching out Beethoven.

From my basic understanding, a, b, c and d are what the prophetic sunnah requires to make a valid nikah. These requirements are a fard. Some people it seems, want to add x y and z requirements to these fards. At best, these additional requirements could be considered something mustahab, highly recommended, to be done when one gets married. But on what authority should they be raised to the level of wajib? And how is it that these new requirements somehow invalidate a contract that is considered valid according to the 4 madhabs?

I'd liken it to a contract in the american system. One needs an agreement and consideration in order for the contract to be considered legally valid (in addition to the legal competancy of either party and for the contract not to be for an illegal act, etc etc). The contract does not need to be in writing for it to be legally valid or enforcable. Is it recommended to put it in writing? Sure. But the fact that it isn't in writing doesn't make it invalid.

If the basics of the contract are fulfilled, but not the extras, the contract is still valid.

Girlfriend, I am trying to send you a message empty your mailbox please some?

Email me. I can't figure out what pm-s to delete anymore, so I'm just letting it sit full, ha.

[Ban Hammer 13,113]

Awww, this is just like the old days. I'm getting all nostalgic and teary-eyed. *Sniff*

[oldahmed 38]

This post is a response to the original poster, not to make a point and not to argue with anyone:

Source: http://english.islamweb.net/ver2/Fatwa/Sho...;Option=FatwaId

Question

assalamu alaykum, i am working in a gulf country and i am from another country, i am 29 years old i met a man he went ask my hand to my father with 2 witnesses and he presented a gift. this man work in the military and they didnt give us approval to make a marriage contract in his country because they want him to marry only women of his own country. if we make this contract in my country than they will inform his ambassy which in turn will inform the military. we are now married without paper as he went to my father and read fatiha and 2 witnesses were there. how can we do the marriage contract??? and where and who can do it for us? please help

Fatwa

All perfect praise be to Allaah, The Lord of the Worlds. I testify that there is none worthy of worship except Allaah, and that Muhammad sallallaahu `alayhi wa sallam ( may Allaah exalt his mention ) is His slave and Messenger.

The marriage contract is correct if some conditions are fulfilled, the most important of which are the consent of the guardian and the presence of two witnesses; for more benefit in this regard, please refer to Fatwa 82072.

So, if there is a proposal and acceptance between the two parties of the contract, who are the guardian and the husband, along with the presence of the witnesses, then the marriage contract is correct. It is not a condition for the marriage contract to take place in a particular place or to write official papers; the woman becomes the wife of the man, and announcing the marriage is desired and not an obligation.

However, if this marriage took place without authentication or announcement, it may lead to losing some rights in addition to what is mentioned in the question that the husband may be subjected to a punishment or brought to court, so it is more appropriate not to conclude this marriage. Nonetheless, since this marriage already took place, one should look for means in a way to avoid those disadvantages as much as possible.

Allaah Knows best.

Also check this link for Fatwa 82072 mentioned above: http://english.islamweb.net/ver2/Fatwa/Sho...;Option=FatwaId

Edited March 12, 2010 by oldahmed

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Wow, I'm confused....first of all what is Orfi?

In July my husband were married in a full traditional Pakistani Nikkah and had an Islamic Scholar, Judge and attorneys present for both my husband and myself. We are in love, we followed every letter of the Islamic laws (including the morality code before marriage), had our contract signed, witnessed, verified by all the legal minds at the ceremony and registered in Islamabad.

The US has fully recognized our translated Nikkah as a valid and binding marriage and I have had no problems changing my Social Security Card name, legal documents and applying for my husband's Visa. So IF you do marry legally and do all your paperwork properly the US WILL consider you legally married and bound to your spouse.

Praise God! You married Islamically in the way that did require lying to immigration that you weren't REALLY married, so you need to file for a K1 or explain to friends and family that you're going to have to marry again because the first one was only "in God's eyes" or some such nonsense blathered on about every time this subject is raised. May you be mightily blessed!

[Sofiyya 1,687]

I'm confused now. I thought that anonymous peeps on websites weren't to be trusted, yet responses linking to websites using other people's words are ok? Come on, I wrote my own posts, not borrowing from websites because doing so demonstrates that you have an understanding of what your position is. It's about respect. Show me enough respect to present your own effort, not someone else's because any fool can link. A person who cares does her own work.

Ill return with more . . .

[aisha kandisha 0]

I'm confused now. I thought that anonymous peeps on websites weren't to be trusted, yet responses linking to websites using other people's words are ok? Come on, I wrote my own posts, not borrowing from websites because doing so demonstrates that you have an understanding of what your position is. It's about respect. Show me enough respect to present your own effort, not someone else's because any fool can link. A person who cares does her own work.

Ill return with more . . .

The people on the sites I quoted are not anonymous. They answer with their names and their credentials are verifiable.

My respect is for the schools of jurisprudence and the imams that lead them, respect for their long established rulings, and being humbled by their efforts enough to know that my itjihad is not superior to theirs. I think the real fool is the one who lives today, has studied less than them, yet thinks their rulings are superior.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Redo to correct typo:

Praise God! You married Islamically in the way that did NOT require lying to immigration that you weren't REALLY married, so you need to file for a K1 or explain to friends and family that you're going to have to marry again because the first one was only "in God's eyes" or some such nonsense blathered on about every time this subject is raised. May you be mightily blessed!

[Sofiyya 1,687]

The people on the sites I quoted are not anonymous. They answer with their names and their credentials are verifiable.

My respect is for the schools of jurisprudence and the imams that lead them, respect for their long established rulings, and being humbled by their efforts enough to know that my itjihad is not superior to theirs. I think the real fool is the one who lives today, has studied less than them, yet thinks their rulings are superior.

You haven't verified anything. You don't know if they are who they say they are anymore than you know who I am. You're using the crediential excuse to avoid dealing with my posts directly. It's a long established ploy. No harm would come to any of you if you addressed each of my points head on; instead you clutter the thread with links, cut and paste and personal attacks because you're more concerned about your so-called "Islamic marriages" being slandered than you are about being able to explain your views without a crutch.

I respect the schools and the texts enough to have dedicated my life to the law in a way that allows me to use my own words rather than cutting and pasting or linking to a website. I have forgotten more about the lives, reasoning and the history of the scholars than you've ever known. I would consider this debate to be more of a challenge if there was even one person who wasn't caught up in sophomoric rhetoric.

But, not so far. Tomorrow is another day.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Just in case someone wants to go beyond bickering and show me where I'm wrong, I will post again, in list form, the points I have made up til now, and see if anyone can prove me wrong. A good give and take moves the discussion forward in a way cut and paste doesn't. I expect those who have a humble respect for the efforts of the imams to be most forthcoming

1. Nikah contracts are valid only if they conform to the sharia, and cannot include conditions that are contrary to the sharia, or to the requirements of the jurisdictional madhab in which they are executed.

2. Local traditions can impose obligations on the couple, too. None of this has to be enumberated in the contract to be binding upon you.

3. There are websites and articles that claim that customizations can be made in a contract to suit the couple's desires. For example, if a woman wishes to prevent her intended from taking on other wives, she may ask him to agree to contractually forgo that option. However, if the madhab that holds legal sway over the area where they married considers multiple marriage to be a Muslim man's God-given right, it will not allow a wife to forbid her husband another wife. So, that provision is null and void, thus, unenforcable. In such a case, her husband will be free to marry another, and her only available recourse may be to take a khul to divorce, and perhaps, give back her mahr.

4. A Muslim husband is forbidden by sharia to allow a non-Muslim wife to inherit from him at his death.

5. In case of divorce, minor children may be given to their father, with few rights to their mother, something to consider if you travel to his country with your kids.

6. Know that a husband can divorce at will, while a wife must have grounds that are adjudicated by jurists.

7. The central requirement of a nikah contract is the mahr.

8. There are often set requirements for how much or how little the mahr can be, sometimes based on the status of the woman.

9. A substantive understanding of what the local madhab requires is essential, for the mahr can make or break a contract. Why? Because a nikah is a contract for sexual intimacy, and it is the mahr that makes sexual contact halal.

10. In several jurisdictions, fiqh actually measures the value of a woman and allots her mahr accordingly. The mahr for a virgin can be set higher than one for a widow, divorcee or fornicator. How this is to be determined can vary.

11. If your mahr does not conform to the controlling law in the jurisdiction of your contract, you are not married, period. Since the primary reason given for entering unto unregistered "marriages" is to facilitate carnal knowledge.

12. If your contract doesn't take these things into consideration, it may well be Islamically invalid, making your relationship - and sexual contact - haraam.

Let's start there, and hopefully, a helpful dialogue will begin.

Edited March 12, 2010 by Sofiyya

[Sofiyya 1,687]

From post #78

Marriage by Hanafi:

http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=...37&CATE=167

Interesting #12:

12. Some masjids and imams have the legal capacity to solemnize a marriage which is then recognized by the state, county or local council. This is extremely beneficial as it does not entail re-performing the marriage again in a civil ceremony.

May Allah grant us the ability to simplify what Allah and His Messenger instructed to be simple and grant us blessing in it.

You know what is missing from the links and cut and pastes? What's missing is a discussion regarding:

- the permissiblity of entering into an unregistered nikah in a Muslim country;

- the permissibility of ignoring the fiqh of their scholars who write the marriage contracts;

- the permissibility of filing for a K3 in the US under false pretenses;

- and, the permissibility of lying about your belief that you are really married and mated before Allah (marriage requires consumation) so you won't be denied a fiance visa.

Muslims are to obey the laws of the land they are in, and no law in the Muslim world disallows you a nikah, but does demand that you to comply with their legal requirements. Disrespecting their laws is an interesting way to support the global ummah.

Is there a fatwa discussing those issues?

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Also from post #78:

The Marriage Contract and its Requirements

Answered by Shaykh Munawwar Ateeq Rizvi

. . . . .

To mention the dowry is not a condition for the validity of a contract. In fact, even if one marries on the condition that a dowry is not due, the marriage will be classified valid. (al-Hidayah 1:238, Durarul hukkam)

And Allah is All knowing.

Munawwar Ateeq Rizvi

I don't know about a dowry (jahaz), but a mahr is sharia and sunnah, therefore, a stipulated part of the contractual obligation on the husband. While it is true that the schools do not all agree on whether there must be a provision in the contract for the mahr or the manner of its delivery, they all agree that it is the right of the bride to receive it and the obligation of the husband to deliver it.

Quran 2:236: There is no sin on you, if you divorce women while yet you have not touched them, nor appointed unto them their Mahr. But bestow on them (a suitable gift), the rich according to his means, and the poor according to his means, a gift of reasonable amount is a duty on the doers of good.

In the link to the Hanafi requirements, mahr is mentioned:

5. The marriage payment [dowry or mahr] should be stipulated beforehand and the person performing the ceremony should be informed of the amount.

Allah requires a mahr.

Quran 2:24: Women are lawful to you….provided that you take them in marriage and not fornication. As to those through whom you profit (through marriage), give them their faridah as appointed.

Quran 4:4: . . . and give the women their mahr with a good heart.

The Prophet (pbuh) required a mahr for marriage.

Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 72, Number 760:

Narrated Sahl:

A woman came to the Prophet and said, "I have come to present myself to you (for marriage)." She kept standing for a long period during which period the Prophet looked at her carefully. When she stayed for a Long period, a man said to the Prophet "If you are not in need of her, then marry her to me." The Prophet said, "Have you got anything to give her (as Mahr)?" The man said, "No." The Prophet said, "Go (to your house) and search for something." The man went and came back to say, "By Allah, I could not find anything." The Prophet said, "Go again and search for something, even if it be an iron ring." He went again and came back saying, "No, by Allah, I could not get even an iron ring." The man had only an Izar and had no Rida' (upper garment). He said, "I will give her my Izar as Mahr." On that the Prophet said, "Your Izar? If she wears it, nothing of it will remain on you, and if you wear it nothing of it will be on her" The man went aside and sat down When the Prophet saw him leaving (after a while), he called back and asked. "How much Qur'an do you know (by heart)? He said, 'I know such and such Suras," naming some Suras. The Prophet said, "I marry her to you for the amount of Qur'an you know (by heart)."

Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 62, Number 2:

Narrated 'Ursa:

that he asked 'Aisha about the Statement of Allah: 'If you fear that you shall not be able to deal justly with the orphan girls, then marry (other) women of your choice, two or three or four; but if you fear that you shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one, or (the captives) that your right hands possess. That will be nearer to prevent you from doing injustice.' (4.3) 'Aisha said, "O my nephew! (This Verse has been revealed in connection with) an orphan girl under the guardianship of her guardian who is attracted by her wealth and beauty and intends to marry her with a Mahr less than what other women of her standard deserve. So they (such guardians) have been forbidden to marry them unless they do justice to them and give them their full Mahr, and they are ordered to marry other women instead of them."