Willing to bear arms?

[Redneck-NOVA 1]

He's from the UK and like a majority of his country, thinks gun control is extremely important and that Americans are too gun-happy.

*sigh*

Important for what? Keeping criminals safe and making sure none of them get killed and just take what they want when they break into someone's house??? This logic just kills me...

[Redneck-NOVA 1]

Just sayin', it ain't very easy to get in, and with three kids, even when we had the draft, they would want no part of you, would have to give you free medical and dental care to your kids even if you met all the other requirements. You would be too expensive for the government.

My granddad had 5 very small children and tried his best stay out of the army when everyone else was signing up voluntarily..

They conscripted him anyway and he was killed within a few months when he and his friends were ordered to walk towards a heavy water cooled machine gun. His body was never found.

They pass all sorts of laws in time of war and those bear little resemblance to peacetime laws.

These people who advocate arms to attack their own (the US government) are fantasists. They spend half their time praising the US military, and the other half polishing their guns and saying they will kill their own servicemen if the government becomes too socialist and tyrannical.

I am 62 years old and in shape. I have a brand new AR-15 assault rifle and National expert marksman qualifications starting in 1967. Luckily I am considered incapable of causing any harm to an enemy so that's ok. However, paper targets should be very afraid.

The poster who talks about Chavez should realise that it wouldn't be him on the end of your bayonet, it would more likely be a scared 17 year old begging for his/her life and your comrades encouraging you to give 'battlefield justice'. War is not a noble thing - it's organised murder no matter how it's portrayed.

The politics and the theory is one thing, the reality is something else. When you are under 26 you don't think like this and that's why the government wants you and not me.

Would you die for the Vietnam war ? 50 thousand Americans dead and half a million crippled in mind and/or body. As soon as it ended we were all friends and US manufacturers were setting up sweat shops there to make shirts. So what was all that about ? What were the terrible consequences of losing ? What happened when we lost ?

All in all I would try my best to avoid killing people in that sort of war. But soldiers can't pick their wars - they have to obey the orders of a Bush brother or Sarah or even - Glenn Beck ?

I generally agree with you. War should be avoided at all costs. And as someone coming from the country with abusive government and mandatory military servie, I'm very passionate about the distinction between voulanteer service and a mandatory one - see one of my posts above.

I believe that the only situation when government is somewhat justified in conducting mandatory draft is when the fighting going on the native soil and it's literally a question of survival. For example, like with Soviet Union in WWII. All wars which are not critical for survival (which is 99% of all modern conflicts) - Vietnam, Korea, Iraq, Chechnya, you name it, should be only fought by the hands of professional soldiers who voulanteerely decided to join the military knowing all pros and cons and possible risks.

[rsn 135]

voulanteerely?

[Captain Oates 911]

If the constitution was legally amended to exclude all hand gun ownership, would people uphold the amended constitution and hand in their guns ?

I bet some would pick and chose which parts of the constitution (as amended) to uphold.

[Redneck-NOVA 1]

Yikes, I didn't realize this kind of question was going to be asked for my future husband. He's from the UK and like a majority of his country, thinks gun control is extremely important and that Americans are too gun-happy.

I'm inclined to agree, especially with a Constitution that has amendments for a reason...

Now, I come from a strong military family and my dad is a colonel, so I very much support our troops, especially as they put their lives in danger for our country. It's more about Congress that I wouldn't agree with who have the power to involve the U.S. in wars, but I guess there's no stopping them except for voting them out.

*sigh*

Gun control in the UK is only an issue if you want to own one legally, illegally not a problem.

I prefer the US system. Gives you a chance.

Please stop jacking threads. This is not about gun control. Your off-topic snide comments to people are all over this board. There are plenty of places on the internet for what you are looking for. People have politely asked you to stop, so please stop.

Actually, she mentioned gun control first. As NickD pointed out, the Oath statement about bearing arms has absolutely nothing to do with the 2nd Amendment. But when you start talking about morals of bearing arms, these 2 subjects mix and I was partially guilty in taking this thread somewhat offtopic by making comments about Right to bear arms. However, it was Justine+David who mentioned gun control first, so don't scream at Boiler just because you disagree with his statement and agree with hers. We see enough of this tactic in congress and media, it's really not cool

[Redneck-NOVA 1]

voulanteerely?

What's your point? As of now, there is no draft in the US, so all people who are in the war zone, joined military voulanteerely. If you join the military, you have to be prepared to fight - that what armies do. If you just would like to run around shooting guns and get basic training in a safe environment, you can always go to Blackwater or any similar organization and pay them top bucks for private training.

[rsn 135]

voulanteerely?

What's your point? As of now, there is no draft in the US, so all people who are in the war zone, joined military voulanteerely. If you join the military, you have to be prepared to fight - that what armies do. If you just would like to run around shooting guns and get basic training in a safe environment, you can always go to Blackwater or any similar organization and pay them top bucks for private training.

"Voulanteerely" is not a word. That was my point.

[Captain Oates 911]

"Voulanteerely" is not a word. That was my point.

We really are onto something here.

We can swear to 'voulanteerely bare arms' and all we need is a T shirt to comply.

http://www.countryhumor.com/larry/righttobarearms.jpg

[Redneck-NOVA 1]

If the constitution was legally amended to exclude all hand gun ownership, would people uphold the amended constitution and hand in their guns ?

I bet some would pick and chose which parts of the constitution (as amended) to uphold.

No offense, but this is a dumb statement. There are always people who don't like some laws, complain about them, or outright ignore them. It's illegal right now for felons to posess handguns or any other guns, but it doesn't seem to stop them does it? Plus, playing "what if" game doesn't prove anything. As of now, the Constitution says what it says and Heller decision last year cleared up the possible interpretations too.

[Redneck-NOVA 1]

voulanteerely?

What's your point? As of now, there is no draft in the US, so all people who are in the war zone, joined military voulanteerely. If you join the military, you have to be prepared to fight - that what armies do. If you just would like to run around shooting guns and get basic training in a safe environment, you can always go to Blackwater or any similar organization and pay them top bucks for private training.

"Voulanteerely" is not a word. That was my point.

Ok, you got me. I made a mistake. I learned English in Russian high school, starting at age 10 and it's not my native language. I think that considering the fact that I only lived in the US for less than 4 years, my English is pretty decent and if I made a mistake so be it. You still got my point, didn't you?

[NickD 202]

voulanteerely?

What's your point? As of now, there is no draft in the US, so all people who are in the war zone, joined military voulanteerely. If you join the military, you have to be prepared to fight - that what armies do. If you just would like to run around shooting guns and get basic training in a safe environment, you can always go to Blackwater or any similar organization and pay them top bucks for private training.

"Voulanteerely" is not a word. That was my point.

Voluntary is and Blackwater has a strong advantage of NOT having to follow rules of engagement like the lowest paid guy, now guy or gal, on the totem pole. That doesn't make sense either, even when we had the draft, that guy on the bottom of the totem pole received the lowest pay. Hell, we were well aware, that we were cheaper to the government dead than alive. And even a lot more expensive to them if wounded.

The real crime was the millions of dollars CEO's were making as defense contracts, Ross Perot, even tried to run for president. Guys that were exempt from the draft had daddies rich enough to send them to college, Clinton and that Bush kid fell in that class. John Wayne and Ronald Reagan beat wartime service by making patriotic movies. Surprised John Wayne didn't run for president, but that other guy did. Other of my classmates in high school beat the draft by getting their girlfriends pregnant in high school followed by a shotgun wedding. Really didn't pay to be a clean cut kid.

What really fried my butt is when shopping with my wife, found clothes made in Viet Nam not to mention China that is a first class butt fryer, we saved them during WW II so they joined up with the Soviets right after, still a communist country, but we are pouring in our bucks like crazy, but getting killed in Iraq and Afghanistan so they can have a democracy. So why aren't we doing that in China? China was our biggest enemy during the so called South Korean conflict, can't call that a war as only congress can declare that. So we helped South Korea only to lose a practically all of our ship building industry that left many Wisconsin cities go broke.

Are our leaders insane? Or are they complete traitors to this country? I feel that latter is true. Would be happy to debate anyone of them on this issue. But they are very good at ignoring my letters.

[Redneck-NOVA 1]

voulanteerely?

What's your point? As of now, there is no draft in the US, so all people who are in the war zone, joined military voulanteerely. If you join the military, you have to be prepared to fight - that what armies do. If you just would like to run around shooting guns and get basic training in a safe environment, you can always go to Blackwater or any similar organization and pay them top bucks for private training.

"Voulanteerely" is not a word. That was my point.

Voluntary is and Blackwater has a strong advantage of NOT having to follow rules of engagement like the lowest paid guy, now guy or gal, on the totem pole. That doesn't make sense either, even when we had the draft, that guy on the bottom of the totem pole received the lowest pay. Hell, we were well aware, that we were cheaper to the government dead than alive. And even a lot more expensive to them if wounded.

The real crime was the millions of dollars CEO's were making as defense contracts, Ross Perot, even tried to run for president. Guys that were exempt from the draft had daddies rich enough to send them to college, Clinton and that Bush kid fell in that class. John Wayne and Ronald Reagan beat wartime service by making patriotic movies. Surprised John Wayne didn't run for president, but that other guy did. Other of my classmates in high school beat the draft by getting their girlfriends pregnant in high school followed by a shotgun wedding. Really didn't pay to be a clean cut kid.

What really fried my butt is when shopping with my wife, found clothes made in Viet Nam not to mention China that is a first class butt fryer, we saved them during WW II so they joined up with the Soviets right after, still a communist country, but we are pouring in our bucks like crazy, but getting killed in Iraq and Afghanistan so they can have a democracy. So why aren't we doing that in China? China was our biggest enemy during the so called South Korean conflict, can't call that a war as only congress can declare that. So we helped South Korea only to lose a practically all of our ship building industry that left many Wisconsin cities go broke.

Are our leaders insane? Or are they complete traitors to this country? I feel that latter is true. Would be happy to debate anyone of them on this issue. But they are very good at ignoring my letters.

I absolutely agree with you. It's very sad...

[Captain Oates 911]

If the constitution was legally amended to exclude all hand gun ownership, would people uphold the amended constitution and hand in their guns ?

I bet some would pick and chose which parts of the constitution (as amended) to uphold.

No offense, but this is a dumb statement. There are always people who don't like some laws, complain about them, or outright ignore them. It's illegal right now for felons to posess handguns or any other guns, but it doesn't seem to stop them does it? Plus, playing "what if" game doesn't prove anything. As of now, the Constitution says what it says and Heller decision last year cleared up the possible interpretations too.

No offense taken - I am married and therefore used to it.

But the post is one big 'what if'.

'What if ' you were called upon to take part in a war which you didn't think was for the defense of the USA and where hundreds of thousands of innocents would die ? - could one sign up for an oath to do that ?

I am pointing out the blank cheque (check) that many are willing to hand to the government when it comes to going to war, but they would take back that check when the government asks for something that takes away from their lives.

Either you trust the government with it's gun control AND wars, or you exercise your discretion when it comes to supporting either of these. In that case we are picking and choosing and I see nothing wrong with that. Handing our lives to the govt in an unreserved manner belongs to the past and that is what oaths seek to do.

Hitler was very keen on oaths as the mind and discretion of the oath taker is switched off and they submit to higher authority who remind them of their oath :

example: >>>

Jungvolk Oath (taken by ten-year-old boys on first entering the Hitler Youth)

"In the presence of this blood banner which represents our Führer, I swear to devote all my energies and my strength to the saviour of our country, Adolf Hitler. I am willing and ready to give up my life for him, so help me God."

I think that swearing to act within one's own concience and with only the finest motives at all times would be a much more admirable thing for a citizen of any country to do.

I would still do the swearing thing though and then act with my own concience which takes precedence.

[Redneck-NOVA 1]

If the constitution was legally amended to exclude all hand gun ownership, would people uphold the amended constitution and hand in their guns ?

I bet some would pick and chose which parts of the constitution (as amended) to uphold.

No offense, but this is a dumb statement. There are always people who don't like some laws, complain about them, or outright ignore them. It's illegal right now for felons to posess handguns or any other guns, but it doesn't seem to stop them does it? Plus, playing "what if" game doesn't prove anything. As of now, the Constitution says what it says and Heller decision last year cleared up the possible interpretations too.

No offense taken - I am married and therefore used to it.

But the post is one big 'what if'.

'What if ' you were called upon to take part in a war which you didn't think was for the defense of the USA and where hundreds of thousands of innocents would die ? - could one sign up for an oath to do that ?

I am pointing out the blank cheque (check) that many are willing to hand to the government when it comes to going to war, but they would take back that check when the government asks for something that takes away from their lives.

Either you trust the government with it's gun control AND wars, or you exercise your discretion when it comes to supporting either of these. In that case we are picking and choosing and I see nothing wrong with that. Handing our lives to the govt in an unreserved manner belongs to the past and that is what oaths seek to do.

Hitler was very keen on oaths as the mind and discretion of the oath taker is switched off and they submit to higher authority who remind them of their oath :

example: >>>

Jungvolk Oath (taken by ten-year-old boys on first entering the Hitler Youth)

"In the presence of this blood banner which represents our Führer, I swear to devote all my energies and my strength to the saviour of our country, Adolf Hitler. I am willing and ready to give up my life for him, so help me God."

I think that swearing to act within one's own concience and with only the finest motives at all times would be a much more admirable thing for a citizen of any country to do.

I would still do the swearing thing though and then act with my own concience which takes precedence.

I don't trust the government with anything, period. I dealt with USCIS for 4 years now, how can I be so stupid to trust government after this?

Seriously, I don't. Not a singe government in the world. None of them have my best interests in mind. Government is a necessary thing and everyone has to deal with them and it's better to find most painless ways to do so, but hell no I don't trust it. Not with wars, not with gun control, not with healthcare, not with social security, no, no, no. That's one of the reasons I oppose gun control too. I don't trust that police will be there when and where I need it, so having a gun gives me a chance should SHTF.

In perfect world only people who are sane, honest, responsible and qualified would have access to weapons, but world ain't perfect. And if you trust government with gun control, they will do what they did both in your home country and in mine - being unable to do anything about criminals, they just disarm the law abiding and tell the sheeple that now it's safe.

I'm not an anarchist, I understand that government is a necessity and it can be useful at times, but I don't trust it and act on my best concience too.

[Captain Oates 911]

I'm not an anarchist, I understand that government is a necessity and it can be useful at times, but I don't trust it and act on my best concience too.

I would swear but with my own definitions in my mind and judging the situation as it unfolds.

If a tyrannical Wasilla based govt takes over in the US I won't bear arms against it ('it' being the combined US armed forces) - I will grab a cheap ticket Seattle-Heathrow one way. Actually I might fly business class.

This dual citizenship thing (Europe/USA) looks better and better