Bonafide Relationship

[BurningFinger 5]

I believe you mentioned you will be filing for the K-1. Make sure that if you plan to have more trips to vietnam after you file your I-129F petition, you make a notation of that planned trip on the time line that you will also put with your petition. A good friend of mine did this when he filed for the K-1 recently and when his fiance went to her interview, they DID ask her pictures from the trip he took after he filed his I-129F. I see that alot of members here complained that the consulate refused to look at evidence, evidence which they themselves requested to be brought to the interview! Just tingle the CO's curiosity. Make them curious to see the evidence. They may still deny the visa but at least they looked at it. Everybody's case is unique so this may not work for you, but it wouldn't hurt to try.

-Travis & Trang

[bryonm4 0]

My wife and I have had a joint bank account in Vietnam since Feb of 2009 we also have a connecting account between wellsfargo and vietnam income bank where I can transfer her money from my computer. She also has access to my credit cards and pin numbers I couldn't get her name on the title to my house yet until she moves here. I would not have done if for a K1 that looks really bad like you are trying to manufacture evedence because you have a weak case.

For a K1 you only have to prove intent to marry not closeness of relationship. The consulate might not always follow that logic but as you can see here by case law you can appeal it very successfully.

http://www.uscis.gov/uscis-ext-templating/...errFrameset.jsp

Section 214(d) of the Act states that CIS shall approve the Form I-129F when a petitioner submits evidence to establish that he/she and the beneficiary have met within the two-year period preceding the filing of the Form 1129F, have a bonafide intention to marry and are legally able and willing to marry within 90 days of the beneficiary's arrival in the United States. The Department of State's interview of the beneficiary raised questions regarding the level of intimacy between the petitioner and the beneficiary at the time of the latter's consular interview. However, the approval of a Form I-129F does not depend on the level of closeness between the two parties, and the AAO finds the director to have erred in imposing it. While § 214(d) of the Act requires the petitioner to establish that he and the beneficiary have a bonafide intention to marry, this language is not synonymous with a requirement that the petitioner establish the closeness of their relationship. The AAO has found nothing in the record to indicate the petitioner and beneficiary do not intend to marry within 90 days of the beneficiary's arrival in the United States.

Edited November 3, 2009 by bryonm4

[bryonm4 0]

My wife and I have had a joint bank account in Vietnam since Feb of 2009 we also have a connecting account between wellsfargo and vietnam income bank where I can transfer her money from my computer. She also has access to my credit cards and pin numbers I couldn't get her name on the title to my house yet until she moves here. I would not have done if for a K1 that looks really bad like you are trying to manufacture evedence because you have a weak case.

For a K1 you only have to prove intent to marry not closeness of relationship. The consulate might not always follow that logic but as you can see here by case law you can appeal it very successfully.

http://www.uscis.gov/uscis-ext-templating/...errFrameset.jsp

Section 214(d) of the Act states that CIS shall approve the Form I-129F when a petitioner submits evidence to establish that he/she and the beneficiary have met within the two-year period preceding the filing of the Form 1129F, have a bonafide intention to marry and are legally able and willing to marry within 90 days of the beneficiary's arrival in the United States. The Department of State's interview of the beneficiary raised questions regarding the level of intimacy between the petitioner and the beneficiary at the time of the latter's consular interview. However, the approval of a Form I-129F does not depend on the level of closeness between the two parties, and the AAO finds the director to have erred in imposing it. While § 214(d) of the Act requires the petitioner to establish that he and the beneficiary have a bonafide intention to marry, this language is not synonymous with a requirement that the petitioner establish the closeness of their relationship. The AAO has found nothing in the record to indicate the petitioner and beneficiary do not intend to marry within 90 days of the beneficiary's arrival in the United States.

I should also add if you get the chance to appeal most cases will expire before you can appeal

[hniHnitsuJ 8]

Hello,

Thank you for your help. I am not sure if Wachovia will allow me to create a joint bank account with Thuy while she is still living in VN. Perhaps when I visit her again in a couple of months, I can ask her if she would like to create a joint bank account with me in VN. In any case, does anybody here who filed for K-1 have any experience with using joint bank accounts as evidence of bonafide relationship? I heard the HCMC consulate is tough to deal with and may look at this type of activity as fraudulent.

Back in VN, I am trying to open a joint BANK account with my wife for HSBC, and other banks. We got denied it, because we didn't have a Married Certificate, eventhough, we both are official married. (Married-Cert in VN take more than 4 weeks.)

In US, I was going to Add my wife name under my Life-insurance, 401k, and ETC. I can not, because she doesn't has SSN.

The best way is to write alot of love letter like x-mas, New Year, Valentine's day, and her b-day in hand-writting. These will help you to prove your relationship is REAL.

[toddandhien 2]

My wife and I have had a joint bank account in Vietnam since Feb of 2009 we also have a connecting account between wellsfargo and vietnam income bank where I can transfer her money from my computer. She also has access to my credit cards and pin numbers I couldn't get her name on the title to my house yet until she moves here. I would not have done if for a K1 that looks really bad like you are trying to manufacture evedence because you have a weak case.

For a K1 you only have to prove intent to marry not closeness of relationship. The consulate might not always follow that logic but as you can see here by case law you can appeal it very successfully.

http://www.uscis.gov/uscis-ext-templating/...errFrameset.jsp

Section 214(d) of the Act states that CIS shall approve the Form I-129F when a petitioner submits evidence to establish that he/she and the beneficiary have met within the two-year period preceding the filing of the Form 1129F, have a bonafide intention to marry and are legally able and willing to marry within 90 days of the beneficiary's arrival in the United States. The Department of State's interview of the beneficiary raised questions regarding the level of intimacy between the petitioner and the beneficiary at the time of the latter's consular interview. However, the approval of a Form I-129F does not depend on the level of closeness between the two parties, and the AAO finds the director to have erred in imposing it. While § 214(d) of the Act requires the petitioner to establish that he and the beneficiary have a bonafide intention to marry, this language is not synonymous with a requirement that the petitioner establish the closeness of their relationship. The AAO has found nothing in the record to indicate the petitioner and beneficiary do not intend to marry within 90 days of the beneficiary's arrival in the United States.

The difficulty is rarely in getting your petition approved by USCIS. It is getting the HCM Consulate to approve the visa. Two totally different hurdles. I believe that for the Consulate, you need to worry about both the real AND perceived closeness of the relationship.

[JimVaPhuong 4,863]

For a K1 you only have to prove intent to marry not closeness of relationship. The consulate might not always follow that logic but as you can see here by case law you can appeal it very successfully.

http://www.uscis.gov/uscis-ext-templating/...errFrameset.jsp

Section 214(d) of the Act states that CIS shall approve the Form I-129F when a petitioner submits evidence to establish that he/she and the beneficiary have met within the two-year period preceding the filing of the Form 1129F, have a bonafide intention to marry and are legally able and willing to marry within 90 days of the beneficiary's arrival in the United States. The Department of State's interview of the beneficiary raised questions regarding the level of intimacy between the petitioner and the beneficiary at the time of the latter's consular interview. However, the approval of a Form I-129F does not depend on the level of closeness between the two parties, and the AAO finds the director to have erred in imposing it. While § 214(d) of the Act requires the petitioner to establish that he and the beneficiary have a bonafide intention to marry, this language is not synonymous with a requirement that the petitioner establish the closeness of their relationship. The AAO has found nothing in the record to indicate the petitioner and beneficiary do not intend to marry within 90 days of the beneficiary's arrival in the United States.

The link is broken.

What you appear to be quoting is an excerpt from a decision by the Administrative Appeals Office of USCIS. Language similar to this appears in a number of decisions from the AAO. In order for a case to have reached the AAO the petition would have had to be denied by a USCIS adjudicator, and the denial upheld by the Director of that USCIS Service Center. In this case, it looks like the consular officer denied the visa and sent the petition back to USCIS with the recommendation that the petition approval be revoked, and that the USCIS Service Center agreed and revoked the petition approval. The petitioner appealed, the AAO upheld the appeal, and the petition was reaffirmed. Presumably, the petition was sent back to the consulate. Whether a visa was subsequently issued is not known.

Unfortunately, USCIS can only approve the petition, or reaffirm it as they did in this case. USCIS cannot force the consulate to issue a visa. The AAO is correct - proof of a bonafide relationship is not required to approve an I-129F. Howevever, USCIS is only charged with determining if the petitioner has met the burden of proof to get the petition approved. The consulate is charged with determining if the beneficiary's intent is not "solely for the purpose of immigration". The result has been an ongoing battle between the two departments, with the tide swinging one way or the other over a period of time. Lately, the California service center has been letting petitions expire rather than revoking the approval and giving the petitioner a chance to appeal. This puts the petitioner back at square one with another petition. Vermont has been reaffirming petitions, but the consulates sometimes deny the visa a second time when the reaffirmed petition comes back to them. Personally, I wouldn't get much satisfaction from watching two government agencies playing ping-pong with my petition. I can just imagine a CO sending a petition back with the remark "15-love, your serve!".

At this point in time, the consulate in HCM expects the beneficiary to convince them that the relationship is not a sham for immigration purposes. Unless and until that policy changes, your best chance of success is to give them what they want.

[ScottThuy 140]

My wife and I have had a joint bank account in Vietnam since Feb of 2009 we also have a connecting account between wellsfargo and vietnam income bank where I can transfer her money from my computer. She also has access to my credit cards and pin numbers I couldn't get her name on the title to my house yet until she moves here. I would not have done if for a K1 that looks really bad like you are trying to manufacture evedence because you have a weak case.

For a K1 you only have to prove intent to marry not closeness of relationship. The consulate might not always follow that logic but as you can see here by case law you can appeal it very successfully.

http://www.uscis.gov/uscis-ext-templating/...errFrameset.jsp

Section 214(d) of the Act states that CIS shall approve the Form I-129F when a petitioner submits evidence to establish that he/she and the beneficiary have met within the two-year period preceding the filing of the Form 1129F, have a bonafide intention to marry and are legally able and willing to marry within 90 days of the beneficiary's arrival in the United States. The Department of State's interview of the beneficiary raised questions regarding the level of intimacy between the petitioner and the beneficiary at the time of the latter's consular interview. However, the approval of a Form I-129F does not depend on the level of closeness between the two parties, and the AAO finds the director to have erred in imposing it. While § 214(d) of the Act requires the petitioner to establish that he and the beneficiary have a bonafide intention to marry, this language is not synonymous with a requirement that the petitioner establish the closeness of their relationship. The AAO has found nothing in the record to indicate the petitioner and beneficiary do not intend to marry within 90 days of the beneficiary's arrival in the United States.

The difficulty is rarely in getting your petition approved by USCIS. It is getting the HCM Consulate to approve the visa. Two totally different hurdles. I believe that for the Consulate, you need to worry about both the real AND perceived closeness of the relationship.

USCIS is a hurdle whereas HCMC is a pole vault... we just dont know how high the bar is...

[bryonm4 0]

http://www.uscis.gov/uscis-ext-templating/...errFrameset.jsp

I hope this link works.

The CO cannot revoke only suggest to revoke however case law would indicate the CO is wrong for denying for that reason and uphold the law. Thus the visa will be issues regardless of the CO. The CO can only delay by denying however you can appeal successfully here in a court of law and the visa would be issued without the Consulates consent.

I do agree the best approch is to show them how close you are because even though you will get the visa you might lose several years of time spent with your soul mate.

[BurningFinger 5]

Make sure that you include evidence of all your trips to vietnam in your I-129F petition. I have done nothing but reading and reading all through the VJ forums and time and time I see people get denied visas. The thing is that eventhough they did make a few trips to VN, they did not put it with their petition. So then the CO says to bring evidence of a bonafide relationship to the interview and they reject the evidence even when they requested it! Putting it with your I-129F is the ONLY surefire way to guarantee they cannot refuse the evidence.

-Travis & Trang

Edited November 4, 2009 by BurningFinger

[kapsig1295 0]

Hi there,

I am sorry for the confusion. I made a mistake about the insurance. What I meant to say was that I would like to add her to my insurance policy as the beneficiary. I believe I am able to add anybody as the beneficiary but I will have to consult with my HR department from work to make sure. How about the joint bank account and adding her name to my apartment lease contract? Are those a good or bad thing to do?

I am also in the process of getting ready to send in my I-130, but I was able to add my wife to my checking account without her being in the country or having a SSN or ITIN. I bank with USAA so they might have some sort of stream lining, but all they requested was to have her sign the signature card and send in a completed IRS form W-8BEN. We left the tax id number blank and she was added within 3 days of the fax being received. She did include her foreign tax id number where required.

[Dau Que 6]

Hello everyone,

Let me introduce myself. My name is Steve and I am engaged to my lovely Thuy. I live in Chicago and she lives in Ho Chi Minh City. We have known each other for 10 months. I came back from my 2nd trip to VN in September, where we had our Dinh Hon. We had the Dinh Hon in VN with her family and we plan to have the wedding in Chicago with my family. I have been roaming around as a guest for the last month or so, but finally decided to become a member because I am about to file the I-129F petition. Anyways, I wanted to include evidence of both of my trips to VN, including our Dinh Hon with the I-129F. Recently, I added Thuy to my life insurance policy as the beneficiary. I also opened up a joint bank account in both our names and I am thinking of adding her name to my apartment for the apartment lease contract. I felt these were good things to do, to begin the transition for her new live in the US after we get married. I will definitely include passport stamps, boarding passes, pictures, emails, receipts, time line, relatives in the US, etc. for evidence, so that part is good. Do you guys think it is a good idea to also add evidence of the insurance policy, the joint bank account and the apartment lease with her name with my I-129F? I don't know for sure. I just wanted to add these to show not only evidence of bonafide relationship but also our future intentions to live together in the US. Would this be ok or should I keep it out? Thanks!

Is Illinois a community property state? If I were you, I wouldn't put everything in my basket in that bank account and add her name on it. Always leave some of your own money in a separate account so you can easily prove later that account remains your "separate" money, before the marriage, if it needs to be so.

Back to your question, IMHO, it's more important for you to make at least 1 or 2 more trips to VN before filing for the petition. This not only allows more time for the relationship to develop, it also strengthens your case due to the more visiting trips you've made. Time your subsequent trip to coincide with major holidays like Tet, or Christmas or her birthday. This will show the CO how much you care for her.

If you date someone here in the States, do you add her name to your bank accounts (checking/saving, not credit card) before you two officially tie the knot? If probably not, then why do that with someone from overseas?

"Trust, but verify first", Ronald Reagan.

Edited November 9, 2009 by Dau Que

[TheBears 9]

Hello,

Thank you for your help. I am not sure if Wachovia will allow me to create a joint bank account with Thuy while she is still living in VN. Perhaps when I visit her again in a couple of months, I can ask her if she would like to create a joint bank account with me in VN. In any case, does anybody here who filed for K-1 have any experience with using joint bank accounts as evidence of bonafide relationship? I heard the HCMC consulate is tough to deal with and may look at this type of activity as fraudulent.

There's no way Wachovia will let you. I've been going around and around with them trying to add my husband to my account for the past 4 months. He's got to be sitting in front of them with a valid SSN. That's the final opinion I've received from the top. As someone else said, though, it won't help you prove you have an ongoing relationship with your fiance. For that you'll have to think of something else.