The Saga Continues.....

[goldenheart 0]

Goldenheart,

This has been a most informative thread for me. I know it started out about your situation and I am so glad you have kept everyone updated. Please continue to update us.

There are a lot of VJ'ers who want to help and support you. When we all get together and brainstorm it just is so refreshing and helpful to all of us.

I can tell you are a wonderful woman wanting to help others avoid what you have been through. Keep working towards getting the answers to your visa dilemma. My hope for you is that the k 1 issue will be resloved quickly. I also hope beloved changes his mind and decides to come here and live with you. Then if you both decide later that the states are not the place for you, then you both can move on.

chi

Thank you and to answer your question, I have thought of moving to Germany.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Let me begin with Layla's accusatory excerpts, then see what we have left.

Allahu Akbr

SZSZ, I'm sorry but your statement that bidah is good is a warning to me not to trust you. I know it's hard on the internet to know who the other person behind the screen is and for all I know you could be some pagan man pretending to be a muslim woman to make Islam look bad. If all that you have said here since joining has been true then I commend you for being muslim for so long and for studying it. All the studying in the world doesn't count for much when you're studing the wrong thing. Quality above quantity I don't know what sect you ascribe yourself to and at this point I don't really care. Refer to the above link to read what our prophet said about bidah (innovation)....

The statements you have made SZSZ, here on this thread as well as others, cause me to fear that you are in direct opposition of Allah and His messenger and I will not accept any advise regarding the deen from you.

You ladies can love the elogance of this imposter's words all you want but as for me, I seek refuge in Allah.

In the future SZSZ it is not necessary to call my name every other line when you're replying to me. I am not a child!

Well... I agree that it should have been discussed elsewhere... I even suggested/requested to be replied to on the other group but we find ourselves here anyway.

I had a very nice brother from Egypt before I met my husband who warned me about various sects. After that I read about their various beliefs and the proofs from Quran and Sunnah that we should not follow them.

Did you know rasool Allah warned about them and predicted we would be divided as we are today?

I may disagree with what you say, Layla, but I have not insulted your character, accused you of belonging to a destructive sect, nor doubted that you are who you say you are. In fact, I asked that we maintain a personal respect even as we disagree. But you have invoked the the voice of fear and fitna, and, in doing so, created a red herring in an attempt to lower my credibility in order to elevate your own credibility.

Do you not have enough confidence in what you say to support your points without slandering me?

When the next thing someone does in a debate is to insult their opponent and try to plant the idea that they are wrong simply because they disagree, and/or that they may not be who they say they are, then you know they are running out of argument and now will resort to diversions and dispersions to supplement their minimal ability to support their position(s). I am sad for you.

In your case, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, for you cherry pick ahadith, then sling them about like they are a weapon. They are not, they are excerpts from a vast wealth of knowledge from which you have obtained a thimbleful. Because I have studied quality over quantity, I know better than to be confused by your slight of hand. I belong to no sect, as our Prophet did not, but I don't need a sect to fall back on when I err to show that erring is sanctioned because others have erred in the same way.

Beyond this statement of observation conveying my deep disappointment in your inability to remain civil, and to acknowledge the FACT that most Muslims are not Salafis and do not agree with your view of bida, I will say no more about your attack on me. I will not respond with name-calling, but will attempt to keep my adab, and the discussion at an adult level. Our Nabi taught us to approach each other with beautiful words. I will do for you what you cannot do for me.

May Allah guide us all.

[noura 0]

The free Qur'an that CAIR is giving away is beautiful. It takes several months to arrive but is well worth the wait. http://www.cair-net.org/ Go to "explore the Qur'an" closer to the bottom of the page.

Rebecca

I went online and requested one a few weeks ago (maybe more?). Anyhow, I recieved an email last week saying that it was being sent to me, so, I'll let you know when it arrives... if this is the correct freebie. I do know I requested one from CAIR - I'll post when it arrives...

Noura

[Veiled Princess 1]

May Allah guide us all.

Ameen.

I am still waiting on the daleel for the things you have declared haraam on this board. At least when I warn against bidah I back it up with proof from both the Quran and Sunnah. You can call it cherry-picking hadeeths all you want but at least I bother to read them instead of just making up my deen as I go along, based on my own desires or personal feelings.

[Veiled Princess 1]

I couldn't edit:

Furthermore SZSZ, you are the one who were slandering the salafi scholars by accusing them of incorporating culture into the deen and I'm not blind to see that was intended as an insult to me since you are well aware that I follow assalafiyyah. You obviously don't know them.

Also, it is not MY view of bidah... it was the prophet's words not mine. It was the prophet who said that this nation will be divided into 73 sects and all will be in annar except one. It was the prophet who said to hold on to the Sunnah by your molar teeth. And it is Allah who says HE completed religion for us. If it's complete there is nothing more to add. Therefore no bidah can be accepted. No SZSZ, it is not MY interpretation.

I am sorry for the comments I made earlier but honestly I really don't know who you are. I was upset because of what you said about the scholars but I shouldn't be. You can't hurt them.

Layla

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Now, to continue with salient and relevent comments.

I am not saying it's haraam to get a marriage license/certificate from the state/country.... We are told in the Quran to honor our contracts and if you reside in a country who has a law that you have to have one of those certificates then you are obligated to obey it. In this case, however, it is not illegal to NOT have one. In America, we have something called "common law marriage" and no one is thrown in jail for NOT getting married. For immigration it IS required and I will be the first in line for mine when Yousuf gets here!

Sorry, you are not married when you don't have one. I don't mean to shame you if you have willfully entered into sin, but I have to say what is real, not what is fantasy. Even in states with common law marriage (I am in one now), you STILL have to inform the state to have it recognized. There are other requirements as well.

Warning, I work for a law firm; PLEASE do not take legal advice from Layla. She is way off base when discussing the law.

You're all totally missing my point. I'm not saying getting a marriage certificate is bidah... I'm saying, to make a statement that it's NOT accepted by Allah is bidah. I have a marriage contract and a contract is a contract in this country. I have news for you.. the kufar government of the WEST will NOT honor your rights in case of a divorce anyway! In most states, because of that piece of paper you love so much, they make you wait an entire year and spend countless hours in front of a judge if your husband divorces you. They force you to be alone for at least a year before they'll allow you to remarry. It is your Allah given right to be able to marry again after the waiting period HE prescribed for us.. not what the kufar prescribe for us. So please don't talk to me about "rights" in this kufr west.

You are not married because you have no way to protect your rights in the contract. You are not protected, Allah did not direct what you have done. You complain about bida, but you failed to address a great deal of what I posted previously in response to you. So, I repeat:

There is no bida in requiring protection for parties engaged in social interactions.

You have no protection, no enforcement. Because you hate the west, you cut off your own nose to spite your face.

There is no bida in requiring there to be an authority outside of a marriage that can enforce rights and uphold responsibilities set out in the marriage contract.

Who is the authority that can uphold your argeement, Layla, and maintain your rights? I have news for you; a nikah can be submitted to the court as a prenup.

There is no bida in allowing for public recognition of a marriage contract.

Your public cannot help you if something goes wrong.

There is no bida in maintaining a legal authority that can dissolve the contract, setting extensions and limits on the obligations entered into by its original provisions.

You don't want to go thru the steps to divorce, so that's as good a reason not to be married, I suppose.

All of these elements are required by the Quran and Sunna, and they all exist when an Islamic marriage is recognized by the state. Yet, when you circumvent the law and don't provide for state recognition, you are lacking each element, and have elected a hardship to prove that you are entitled to the very protection Islam requires . That is a bida, and not a good one.

I ask you straight up regarding your charges of bida and your clam that it is not allowed in Islam:

1. What can you tell us to show that any of the required elements are available to you and, if you lack them, why what you have promoted as halal is NOT a bida? How does it promote justice, morality, fairness, protection, Layla? Show us where the bida is in what I have posted.

2. If you go to Saudi Arabia, homeland of the Salafis, would you be able to claim you are married without challenge?

3. If He prescribes shura, who can enforce it? If He prescribes divorce, who can facilitate it? You have to understand, sister, that the nikah is a contract, not a sacrament, as it is in Christianity, and that may be where you are getting confused. Do you believe, as Christians do, that marriage is a sacrement, or as Msulims do, that marriage is a social contract entered into to do justice and to benefit society?

3. A contract consists of three elements - offer, consideration, acceptance - and this is true in all contracts, secular or Islamic. A contract needs to be enforced. Who will do the enforcement if there is not one in power to do so? Allah tells us that He will help those who help themselves. He will not be likely to enforce the contract Himself, but will expect us, following His guidance, to apply His law, His desire for justice, for fairness, for a correct outcome, to a proper result.

4. Saudi Arabia did not ban slavery until the 1960s, and now, there are Salafi scholars in the Kingdom calling for its return. Do you wish to see slavery return and endorsed by Muslims as correct simply because it existed during the time of the Prophet? Would it be bida to prohibit it altogether?

I await your response in support of your view and addressing these issues.

Another thing too is that so much of this bidah (innovation) comes from trying to immitate the kufar and people of the book and he also warned against that...

{ On the authority of Abu Sa'eed, may Allah be pleased with him, the the Prophet(sal allahu alayhi wa salaam) said:

"You will indeed follow the ways of those who came before you hand-span by hand-span and arms-length by arms-legnth, to the extent that if they were to enter a lizard's hole, then you would likewise follow them."

"We said: O Messenger of Allah! Do you mean the Jews and Christians?" He said "Who else!?" }

So we need to stop acting like them and taking their ways as our own and remember that we are muslims.

There is also another hadeeth in that rasool Allah said whoever immitates a people is from them or will be with them on JD but I'll have to look for the reference to site on that one inshallah. It may be on the previous site I referenced.

Allah also warned against believing oneself to be His "Chosen" people. I suppose that by infering that I am not Muslim, you are free to attack me as a kafir? Going on the attack is something a hateful non-Muslim might do to a Muslim, or a hateful Muslim might do to a non-Muslim. Would I be correct now to suggest that you were imitating the kuffar when you attacked me, insinuating that I am kafir? Not all those who call themselves Muslim will enter heaven, Layla, and some who do not will. Check out ayat 2.62 & 5.69. You are not safe from the Wrath simply because you are Salafi. As your sister in Islam, I will warn you that you are sounding quite arrogant, for only Allah's judgment of us all, Muslim and non-Muslim, is the one with weight. I do not put any authority in claims that Muslims are chosen, for I know that, for example, covering a woman's hair is one habit that Christians and Jews laid claim to before the Arabs did. Is that an imitation? Think about it.

I am still waiting on the daleel for the things you have declared haraam on this board. At least when I warn against bidah I back it up with proof from both the Quran and Sunnah. You can call it cherry-picking hadeeths all you want but at least I bother to read them instead of just making up my deen as I go along, based on my own desires or personal feelings.

Disembodied ahadith are not proof, Layla. Is that all you know? You are in denial about so much.

May Allah guide us all.

I would appreciate it greatly if you would address each question as it is stated so that our understanding of your position be clear. You say I do not get your point; it is my fervant wish that I do so.

Thank you in advance.

Edited July 16, 2006 by szsz

[tnh9479 1]

The free Qur'an that CAIR is giving away is beautiful. It takes several months to arrive but is well worth the wait. http://www.cair-net.org/ Go to "explore the Qur'an" closer to the bottom of the page.

Rebecca

I went online and requested one a few weeks ago (maybe more?). Anyhow, I recieved an email last week saying that it was being sent to me, so, I'll let you know when it arrives... if this is the correct freebie. I do know I requested one from CAIR - I'll post when it arrives...

Noura

Another thought for others too...I went on the website for our local Islamic Society and they listed some suggested translations of the Quran and some websites. You might check out your local society too to see what they suggest.

Twila

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Furthermore SZSZ, you are the one who were slandering the salafi scholars by accusing them of incorporating culture into the deen and I'm not blind to see that was intended as an insult to me since you are well aware that I follow assalafiyyah. You obviously don't know them.

Even the Salafi scholars admit that they interpret with cultural considerations. That's one reason why Salafis are a sect and not mainstream Islam.

Also, it is not MY view of bidah... it was the prophet's words not mine. It was the prophet who said that this nation will be divided into 73 sects and all will be in annar except one. It was the prophet who said to hold on to the Sunnah by your molar teeth. And it is Allah who says HE completed religion for us. If it's complete there is nothing more to add. Therefore no bidah can be accepted. No SZSZ, it is not MY interpretation.

It is AN interpretation, not THE interpretation.

I am sorry for the comments I made earlier but honestly I really don't know who you are. I was upset because of what you said about the scholars but I shouldn't be. You can't hurt them.

I said what is true, and I have no agenda to hurt anyone, no reason to lie.

[Veiled Princess 1]

SZSZ I have already stated I don't have a problem with getting a marriage certificate to satisfy the government but I do not and will not see it your way. You are the one sounding arrogant... you are the one declaring things haraam that Allah has declared halal.

I don't really care to discuss this with you anymore. I don't trust anything you say about anything because I know you have no problem changing the deen to suit your own desires.

Take care

Layla

[sarah and hicham 3]

SZSZ I have already stated I don't have a problem with getting a marriage certificate to satisfy the government but I do not and will not see it your way. You are the one sounding arrogant... you are the one declaring things haraam that Allah has declared halal.

I don't really care to discuss this with you anymore. I don't trust anything you say about anything because I know you have no problem changing the deen to suit your own desires.

Take care

Layla

I was hoping you two would reach common ground without someone giving up.

Can't we all get along?

[Sofiyya 1,687]

SZSZ I have already stated I don't have a problem with getting a marriage certificate to satisfy the government but I do not and will not see it your way. You are the one sounding arrogant... you are the one declaring things haraam that Allah has declared halal.

I have been waiting for you to show us where what I have said is incorrect. I have stated the elements required in an Islamic marriage - justice, protection, enforcement, shura and an authority with the power to uphold the provisions. I didn't see you disagree with any of that.

I then asked you to show how you have any of that without recognition by the authority with the power to enforce the contract. With that, you back away? Do you not have an answer that supports your conviction? How do I sound arrogant because I do as you said before was not offensive - to ask for PROOF?

I don't really care to discuss this with you anymore. I don't trust anything you say about anything because I know you have no problem changing the deen to suit your own desires.

Take care

My goal was not to beat up on you, offend you or to pronounce takfir on you, but to clarify the points involved in the discussion. I prefer clarity to mere agreement. Unfortunately. you choose not to answer my questions, to make more unfounded character accusations, and go passive-aggressive on me, leaving your position weak and undefined.

Ok, enough drama, one exits stage left.

For those who prefer to deal in the real world where we have to act positively and assertively to make Islam the Way that lights our Path, even in court, may I offer some legal perspectives regarding how Muslim legal professionals are addressing the issues regarding Islamic marriage in the US. Whether you are legally married or "sacrementally married", you need to know the course law takes and what you gain or lose with the choices you make.

http://www.minaret.org/azizah.htm

http://www.niqabiparalegal.com/archives/20...r_issues_wi.php

http://www.law.emory.edu/IFL/cases/USA.htm

Insha'allah, my posts (as imposing as they may have been) have been helpful to anyone.

Edited July 16, 2006 by szsz

[Veiled Princess 1]

I was hoping you two would reach common ground without someone giving up.

Can't we all get along?

I have no problem getting along with anyone here. Everyone has a right to believe how they want to. My only issue is someone telling me what I'm doing is haraam when I am sure it's not and talking to me in a condesending manner because they think they're better than me because I wasn't born muslim or I haven't had the luxury of knowing about Islam for 60 some odd years. There are people who were born muslim, raised muslim and spent their entire lives claiming to be muslim who will spend their time in hell.

I may be new to Islam but I study it daily and NOT so I can come into some message board to try to show off in front of newbies. I listen to various lectures daily on my drive to work and back home again. I read books by the scholars on my lunch break. I didn't just make the statement one day that I'm a muslim now and never think about it again. I love my deen very much and take it very seriously and it hurts me deeply, like a knife in the heart, when someone comes in and starts to belittle that.

Layla

[Henia 11]

Waleikum salam dear ...

I am so sorry they are making it so hard for you.... I thought if you were German, or really any west european country it is easy to immgrate here, but as i see in you case it isnt...I have some thoughts on why, but i dont want to write them in thsi reply, cos I know I will get some people emailing me and bashing me...but I do feel with you... with the religious aspect of it...unfortunely that is how they do it...

Ya Allah, I wish I had some good advice or tip to write you, but sorry to say I dont....only thing I can offer is make dua for you... Inchallah this whole will be over... in every trail there is relief dear....and inchallah it will be soon for you too....

Allah Maaki

Esalaamu Aleikum wa Rahmat Allah wa Baraketu....

sis henia

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Don't be a victim now, Layla. No one is belittling you. You said you're an adult, and I have been expecting an adult response, but have been disappointed that you prefer to indulge in name-calling and other diversionary tactics instead.

You can whine, call me condesending, call out takfir all you want, but it doesn't do anything to support your points regarding a very important issue, and that is what I expected from you. One of us is wrong, and I don't believe it is I. As I mentioned before, we are to enjoin the good and reject the bad, so when I discuss with you, or anyone, aspects of the deen, I prefer to remain on point, without personal attacks. This is not about you and me or how we look to others, it's about the deen and how we best uphold it to ensure that Allah's intent is present when we act or advise others how to act.

As I said before, it was not my intent to insult you. If I have done so, I apologize, but I am also disappointed that you would rather give up and continue to insult me than to remain strong in your convictions. It makes me think less of you, and that is not at all what I wanted.

BTW, I can't help it that I was born Muslim and have studied the deen for decades any more than you can help it that you haven't had that advantage, but I can help how I interact with others, and you can too.

Edited July 17, 2006 by szsz

[Veiled Princess 1]

I have been waiting for you to show us where what I have said is incorrect. I have stated the elements required in an Islamic marriage - justice, protection, enforcement, shura and an authority with the power to uphold the provisions. I didn't see you disagree with any of that....

I asked you for the proofs from the Quran and Sunnah first. Instead of giving me any you just fill the screen with your personal opinions and feelings on the subject. Islam, as I understand it, is not made up by your feelings or opinions. There must be proof and you have not shown me that yet so there is no reason for me to continue the discussion.

The only elements of a marriage is that the woman agrees to it or has been consulted, she has a wali, a dowry is to be agreed upon, the marriage contract and two witnesses.

Give me the proof from Quran and Sunnah that these elements are not enough OR that bidah is allowed. Otherwise stop directing comments to me because I'm not going to argue about it.

If you're so worried about the muslimaat gettting our rights in the courts why not fight with them about recognizing the marriage contract the same as any other contract they would uphold in court?

What would be your advice to a muslim man who would like to marry a second wife in one of the western countries that don't allow it? Should he go ahead and get another marriage license even though it will send him to prison?

Layla

Don't be a victim now, Layla. No one is belittling you. You said you're an adult, and I have been expecting an adult response, but have been disappointed that you prefer to indulge in name-calling and other diversionary tactics instead.

You can whine, call me condesending, call out takfir all you want, but it doesn't do anything to support your points regarding a very important issue, and that is what I expected from you. One of us is wrong, and I don't believe it is I. As I mentioned before, we are to enjoin the good and reject the bad, so when I discuss with you, or anyone, aspects of the deen, I prefer to remain on point, without personal attacks. This is not about you and me or how we look to others, it's about the deen and how we best uphold it to ensure that Allah's intent is present when we act or advise others how to act.

As I said before, it was not my intent to insult you. If I have done so, I apologize, but I am also disappointed that you would rather give up and continue to insult me than to remain strong in your convictions. It makes me think less of you, and that is not at all what I wanted.

BTW, I can't help it that I was born Muslim and have studied the deen for decades any more than you can help it that you haven't had that advantage, but I can help how I interact with others, and you can too.

It is my belief that bidah is haraam and I have been kind enough to show you the proofs for that. You don't want to accept that and it's not my problem. I don't have to argue about it anymore and I'm not less of a person because I don't want to get caught up in that.

Layla