Thinking of leaving...

[Jenn! 918]

I understand what you're saying, but you also have to realize that some people aren't like you and can't let things roll off their back. Everyone has a different bioling temeprature.

[Together4ever 1]

Wow. Just...wow.

Bosco/Rebecca I appreciate your comments. Because honestly, while I get that this group does seem to have a target on their back, I think that the persecution complex is growing. I and many others here have done nothing to you other than be supportive and yet we're lumped in with the "non-ME/NA crowd" of people treating you like #######. Frankly that sucks, especially since it's patently not true.

I'm out of this now. I wish you all luck/the best on your journeys.

I, for one, never viewed you as such a person. I don't think anyone here has held any bad opinion of you. There are a select few who are not as lovely as you are that love to come and poke, as well as ocassional people who wander through and feel the need to advise us "retards" of our short-sightedness (pfft). I think I'm speaking fairly accurately when I say no one here held any bad feelings about you.

When things get heated, things easily turn #######-for-tat (me included) and I for one am sorry for ever making you feel bad.

[Jenn! 918]

SOME ME/NA-members.

[UmmSqueakster 54]

If you don't want to hear comments about potential fraud, then by all means start a yahoo invite-group only where you can all tell each other how wonderful and fraud-free life is and how noone will ever be taken advantage of.

Because obviously that's the only thing we're going to do Nothing like sharing pictures without certain bloggers coming in and using them on her website, or talking politics and current events without being labeled anti semites. Nothing like privately sharing marriage concerns and tips among a group of friends without the entire world reading it. Nope, nothing like that at all

[Jenn! 918]

If you don't want to hear comments about potential fraud, then by all means start a yahoo invite-group only where you can all tell each other how wonderful and fraud-free life is and how noone will ever be taken advantage of.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. SOME non-ME/NA members think that we're just totally oblivious or something. Most of us constantly admit the high-frequency of fraud, and admit the neccessity of extra security checks. We are not trying to create some la-la land as you would imply.

[morocco4ever 63]

Well Jenn, if you feel you must leave, you will be missed. Unfortunately bigotry is everywhere. So when you leave here, you will find more. I choose to stay and read, and make my comments, and ignore the morons, or on occasion poke fun at them. I refuse to let them affect how I feel, they aren't worth my time. I just see them as the product of some form of inbreeding (yes I expect some form of comeback on that, so go ahead).

I think our best efforts will be on how we raise our children, and hope they can someday make a difference.

[Jenn! 918]

I'd also like to clarify that there are two separate problems, and I can distinguish between the two.

I realize that someone who speaks of fraud is not necessarily doing so with any racist intent. There is the bigotry problem, and then separate from that is the need that people feel to constantly point out potential fraud as if we didn't know.

The longer I hang around, the more I feel that this is not the place for me.

I will take my persecution complex elsewhere.

[bornot2b 0]

Well Jenn, if you feel you must leave, you will be missed. Unfortunately bigotry is everywhere. So when you leave here, you will find more. I choose to stay and read, and make my comments, and ignore the morons, or on occasion poke fun at them. I refuse to let them affect how I feel, they aren't worth my time. I just see them as the product of some form of inbreeding (yes I expect some form of comeback on that, so go ahead).

I think our best efforts will be on how we raise our children, and hope they can someday make a difference.

Very well said!

[sarah and hicham 3]

Wow. Just...wow.

Bosco/Rebecca I appreciate your comments. Because honestly, while I get that this group does seem to have a target on their back, I think that the persecution complex is growing. I and many others here have done nothing to you other than be supportive and yet we're lumped in with the "non-ME/NA crowd" of people treating you like #######. Frankly that sucks, especially since it's patently not true.

I'm out of this now. I wish you all luck/the best on your journeys.

I can understand what you are saying. We are definitely a different group and I know that most of the other members stay away from this forum because they feel alienated. I personally feel alienated from in this group all the time because there is so much religious talk thrown in that I feel very weird about it. I am not Muslim, and I really would prefer it if we left religion out of this forum and just kept it about what it is here for which is support and help with immigration. I know this won't happen because so many of you are Muslim but it's just my opinion. I am someone who prefers to let everyone believe what they want and to not impose religion into a place where it doesn't belong. Don't take this the wrong way I'm just saying that I feel left out or alienated sometimes when just about everywhere you look on this forum you see religion tied in. I mean it doesn't really bother me I'm just saying sometimes it's too much for me since I am not Muslim and that I personally believe in keeping religion separate from certain things and places. I hope no one takes this the wrong way I'm just giving my opinion. Carry on,

Sarah

[Together4ever 1]

Well pick my nose and call me retarded.

I've known my fiance 2 1/2 years. Racism aside, don't you think MOST ALL of the people on visa journey forum are aware of visa fraud and have at least some point in their journey thought about it? I sure as heck don't appreciate at this point someone implying that I walk around with rose colored glasses just because I'm sick of the implications that because my husband to be is from another country HE MUST BE OUT FOR SOMETHING!!! Gad. And further more... blah blah blah.

Maybe there should be a thread added on the general forum entitled VISA FRAUD... ARE YOU GETTING THE SHAFT??" where people could go to discuss such things. Again, this is the ME/NA forum. We discuss region related topics as well as region-related consular and visa subjects with each other. If I want general discussion/information I go to that forum (which is rare). When someone who has no dealings with the ME/NA consuls or cultures comes in and starts up with their opinions its very very easy to be taken wrong.

Yep, a lot of us are overly sensitive right now because of the what happened recently. It's quite vogue for the world population to express bigotry towards the ME/NA people so we are doubly sensitive anyway. Do I need to work on my reactivity? YEP. Do a lot of others on this forum need to work on their bigotry (however you want to make it pretty) levels? YEP.

Now... I will go back to picking my nose and drooling on myself.

[Jenn! 918]

Well Jenn, if you feel you must leave, you will be missed. Unfortunately bigotry is everywhere. So when you leave here, you will find more.

That's the thing though. Call me lucky, naive, ignorant (or all three ) But I've never seen bigotry like I have here in my "real" life.

I will miss VJ though. There are so many who have been so helpful without passing judgement. Thank you .

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

OK here's my two cents (or maybe three or four.)

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. With the internet at our fingertips, outright false information can usually be debunked quickly and easily, with documented and reliable sources.

The board has established rules for conduct on the boards. It's true, some members don't adher to those rules and get away with it from time to time, or even a lot. The Arab/Muslim community has definitely been targeted with some of the worst abuse.

But I have seen several incidents where the mods banned some folks for some of the more outrageous and continuing personal attacks. Of course sometimes the banished just come right back under another name, and it is generally tolerated. And sometimes the mods throw out the baby with the bathwater -- for instance I once got a one day suspension after posting a "This Thread Needs More Wookie" pic in the midst of a huge drama thread that had turned quite ugly. But I figure it was just a case of "collateral damage" when the ban bomb hit, as probably 10 others were exiled for various terms for posting in the same thread. And I was back onboard the next day with a suitable response.

Anywayyyyy. Any time someone puts up an opinion (whether idiotic or reasonable) anyone can read it. Most people on VJ are fairly intelligent, sensible, basically good-hearted people. Some may not post much, but most know the difference between an ad-hominem attack and a legitimate debate, even if they don't always agree with the opinions expressed.

So I like to look at even vicious flame wars as an opportunity to keep presenting my "case" before an audience who probably hasn't had a chance to see both sides of a story. A lot of folks don't post many replies, but mainly just read the comments. They will make up their minds for themselves. I think I'm able to make some pretty well documented/and or appropriate rebuttals to the more biased remarks and false claims. And we can simply ignore those who just want to "fling poo" or better yet have a bit of fun at their expense Reasonable people can clearly see for themselves who is being unreasonable, and actually quite a few have spoken up about it.

Most importantly, I like to think of this message board as an opportunity. What we can present from our own experiences and knowledge might well be opening up some minds to new ideas, even prompt people to draw new conclusions about their own perceptions, rather than only viewing things through the same one-sided prism.

Each one teach one. Even if you only manage to touch the heart and mind of one person, you've done a great job !

to all the wonderful ME/NA ladies and all the other lovely people who have been so kind and caring and supportive after the incidents of the last few days... your PMs and emails and comments in the threads have touched me so deeply.... really there are no words to express my gratitude. I am forever in your debt !

Palestine sending you flowers

-MK

Well Jenn, if you feel you must leave, you will be missed. Unfortunately bigotry is everywhere. So when you leave here, you will find more. I choose to stay and read, and make my comments, and ignore the morons, or on occasion poke fun at them. I refuse to let them affect how I feel, they aren't worth my time. I just see them as the product of some form of inbreeding (yes I expect some form of comeback on that, so go ahead).

I think our best efforts will be on how we raise our children, and hope they can someday make a difference.

heehee

Right on !

[Welshcookie 17]

But I have seen several incidents where the mods banned some folks for some of the more outrageous and continuing personal attacks. Of course sometimes the banished just come right back under another name, and it is generally tolerated. And sometimes the mods throw out the baby with the bathwater -- for instance I once got a one day suspension after posting a "This Thread Needs More Wookie" pic in the midst of a huge drama thread that had turned quite ugly. But I figure it was just a case of "collateral damage" when the ban bomb hit, as probably 10 others were exiled for various terms for posting in the same thread. And I was back onboard the next day with a suitable response.

<sigh> ahhhh......memories..... that was a cracking pic tho'

[Jenn! 918]

WOM, you're very cool.

I hope to get to where you are some day, but I'm not quite there yet...

[meauxna 15]

Racism aside, don't you think MOST ALL of the people on visa journey forum are aware of visa fraud and have at least some point in their journey thought about it?

I feel like there's hardly a point in commenting anymore---most here have made up their mind about the motives of *everyone* based on the actions of a few.

I appreciate WOM's comments because I agree. John also said much of what I'd say---I don't stalk "your" forum--I read from the new topics and I like to keep up on the goings on around the world. I like knowing about the differences in the different Consulates. Your experiences help many others who you will never meet.

Regarding the quote I left: NO. It's crystal clear to me after near daily reading over the past 4 years of our journey that there are THOUSANDS who have NO CLUE. Really. Thumbs up to you, jw, for looking past your own (picked) nose () to examine that for yourself---just bear in mind that there are many naive people who *don't* think about it or know.

I'm sorry to see those of you who are leaving leave; I enjoy knowing about the details of your journies and the glimpse into your lives which are so different from my own. I'm happy that when the new N Africa CD arrived at work, I knew what 'habibi' meant, from reading you all. I'm happy that that music reminded me of living in Spain, and how close we really all are. I'm sorry that you, my American sisters, feel like you can't stay in the larger community here. But, I understand the reasons you've put out here and I will keep reminding myself that it's not about me (!) and wish you all well on your life's journies.. hopefully as part of a two, side by side, very soon.