questions about love and commitment relative to K1 process

[Steve S 2]

From listening to my SO and her friends, the Russian men are borderline immature in the way they show their affection. Like Jr. High crush style. And sometimes it reaches a disturbing level, as I have witnessed with an admirer of my SO while I was visiting Russia. Luckily he spoke enough English so i could convey my feelings on the subject at 3am when he wouldn't stop calling. Silly boys.

Irina said she has fended off 4 marriage proposals, one of them semi-serious after a first date! My sense also is that RW as a whole may be more reserved about their affections.

I have been writing about the feeling of "being in love" or limerance -- partly a hormonal and endorphin-driven feeling that does involve idealization and projection as one poster remarked. Not necessary for both partners to feel it the same degree or perhaps at all, or to describe it with same words (culture and language aside). Love obligately is mutual and is tied to actions and commitment over the long term - IMO. Reading and writing about it in this forum has helped me think it through. I 100% want her to be my wife.

[mox 298]

You're gonna be just fine...now go and get married you crazy kids!

(cue Whitney Houston's "I Will Always Love You" ...)

[Thomas-n-Elena 0]

The opinions expressed below are neither this stations nor the management there of: Let me put in my two rubles:

1. Is it customary, right or proper in this day and age (leaving aside cultures with arranged marriages) to become engaged if one or both parties are not truly in love yet? That is, it seems to be a perfect match, the physically you really connect, etc. but you have not really had the usual time together honestly for love to develop?

I dont know any couple that has gotten engaged(K-1 process not withstanding) that is 100% sure, Im not sure my parents after being married for 30 years were completely sure. You have to trust your instincts, something inside you told you to propose and go through this emotional and time consuming process that can drive you crazy. All the doubts you have she has as well, talk about them, dont talk about the trial period, out clause. Be positive and know that something outside of yourself is going to make sure things work out the way they are supposed to.

2. Does anyone have an experience with this sort of situation and did it turn out favorably once you did get the time together?

Our trial period ended when we got married and found out we were pregnant. Sure we have had some troubles and issues but every relationship does, keep the communication open and talk about things that are bothering you and her that is the only way to work through problems. Marriage is like a second job that is 24-7 and there is no pay but the fringe benefits are love and companionship. Its much easier to love someone than be in love with someone. Make sure that you can be friends with each other. Be supportive and undestanding.

3. Does anyone have experience with feeling more in love with your Russian fiancee than you think they feel in return? I think there is asymmetry like this in relationships frequently, but usually people coming to more equal footing before the engagement happens. But, if you wait to collect enough time together on Russia vacations to work this process through, one or both parties may not be able to wait that long and the relationship can die.

That feeling is true in any relationship and it changes day to day. One day you will feel more emotional about the relationship and tomorrow will be different. This is a marathon race not a sprint. The day you get married is not the end of the process it is just another step.

4. In this sort of situation, doesn't the 90-day visa take on a "trial period" quality? I know that this is not the intent of the K1 visa, and it could put undue pressure on the time together in the U.S.

See mumbo jumbo above

5. Has anyone deferred one or more steps of the marriage planning process until the 90-day period (formally proposing? giving a ring? announcing to parents? discussing time and place of wedding?)? If so, what is it like to be in limbo or to have a quasi-fiancee for a year?

If you are going to ask someone to sacrifice the kinds of things a K-1 requires you better be ready to make the commitment, for awhile you will be the only one she has to talk to that doesnt require an operator to intervene.

6. If you are in this limbo status where he/she (ok, mostly she's in this group I think) may be waiting for more time together to decide for sure about love and commitment, do you let everyone know about the "engagement"? Do you introduce her as your fiancee?

You can label her anything you want but its what you feel that is important.

I know that each relationship is its own unique universe, but would appreciate any thoughts from others on these questions I am struggling with right now.

[baron555 934]

I 100% want her to be my wife.

And she by her actions, wants to also be your wife.

So now you be the husband and she will be the wife. You each may express your love to each other differently and that difference is what you both need to determine and live with.

I am sure you would never want her to change and she for you.

If you both changed for each other, then I am sure you would find her boring and she find you boring. A relationship is about two different people agreeing together and committing together to be together, knowing there are differences. Those differences are what makes it exciting! And an international relationship (which I am in the beginning of also) is most exciting.

[Blues Fairy 0]

Let me just say that the 90 days is NOT a trial period and was not designed as such. If you have doubts about this relationship, TAKE MORE TIME to get to know each other before jumping into this.

[Thomas-n-Elena 0]

I guess that was what I was trying to say in a very convoluted and long winded way.

I agree with the Blues Fairy

[mox 298]

Let me just say that the 90 days is NOT a trial period and was not designed as such. If you have doubts about this relationship, TAKE MORE TIME to get to know each other before jumping into this.

*sigh* This again.

Why can't the 90 days be a trial period, whether or not it was designed that way? We're all adults, and we can all be responsible for our actions. If a couple decides to use all or part of their 90 days as a trial period, who is anybody else to say that's wrong? I would much rather a couple take 90 days to decide if they can live with each other, than go through the ####### that comes with ending a marriage. As long as the non-USC either marries or leaves the country within 90 days, there's no problem.

[Turboguy 6]

I am a little tired tonight so I apologize if I come off as a hard azz. The K-1 visa is not intended as a chance to see if you might want to get married. It is a visa for two people who have already decided without a doubt that they do want to get married to have time to arrange their marriage. Blues Fairy is a very smart woman and is 100% correct. If there are doubts you should get them resolved before filing for a K-1. To use it as a vacation together to see if you might want to marry is borderline visa fraud.

Why can't you use it for a chance to see if you might want to marry. I can give you a one word answer. IMBRA! If it doesn't work you are partially screwedd. If you do want to marry a foreign woman you need to either wait two years or file for a waver. Your next shot could be your last if they start enforcing IMBRA more. I have been the biggest complainer about IMBRA but your post may almost make me think it is a good thing.

Did anyone ever do it. Yes, I did and it was a big mistake. In my case I was 200% committed and my first fiancee after starting out wanting it got wishy washy. She stayed 89 days and went home. My first fiancee was beautiful and had the most wonderful personality you could find but mentally she was a mess. I exchaged a few e-mails with someone I know and from what I heard afterr me, she did another K-1 but didn't go to the interview and then another and came back to America, Texas I belive, married and left him 3 weeks after the wedding.

In my case I started a new search and met a wonderful woman about 9 months after my first fiancee went back. I spent a lot of time with my new fiancee and made sure both of us had no doubts, filed another K-1 and had to file a waver. It was approved but because of the former K-1's we ended up in Administrative Review for 5 months and our visa really took a long time. We have now been married for a year and a half and my wife describes us as being the happiest couple she has ever met. To be honest I think one of the things I really liked was the total committment of my wife. After going through all the stuff my first fiancee put me through it was nice to fall in love with someone who had no doubts about what she wanted or that we were meant for each other.

I have seen a few others bring someone on a trial basis. I am trying to recall the handle of one I knew here. Sky Wolf or something like that. He was totally in love and she was wishy washy and ended up going back and breaking his heart. To be honest, having done it once where I was committed and the woman was unsure I would not even think of doing that again no matter how hot she was. It just wasn't worth the hurt and the heartbreak and the problems with IMBRA.

Personally in a situation like yours I don't think most people are looking for advice. I think they are really looking for confirmation that they are doing the right thing and you are not.

[mox 298]

Personally in a situation like yours I don't think most people are looking for advice. I think they are really looking for confirmation that they are doing the right thing and you are not.

Who is this addressed at? Certainly not the OP, there's nothing about his post that indicates he's using the 90 days as a trial period. I get the impression that he's just verbalizing what's gone through most of our heads before.

In any case, I say again: who are you or me or any of us to judge how a couple conducts the 90 day period their K1 visa legitimately allows? As long as the law is followed, and they either marry or the non-USC departs before day 91, there is no problem. I see the argument against using 90 days as a trial period as the same argument against sex before marriage. If two consenting adults don't mind, why is it anyone else's business?

As far as using the 90 days as a trial period being "borderline Visa fraud," I disagree. The requirements for a K1 visa are that both couples are free to marry, and that they marry within 90 days. There is nothing else in the law that says otherwise. With regards to IMBRA, once again it's two consenting adults who (should) know what they're getting into. If the USC doesn't mind taking the risk (which is, at the moment, roughly zero risk anyway), then why should anyone else mind?

For what it's worth, I personally wouldn't bring somebody over unless we were both damn well sure we wanted to marry. But that's me. Others live their lives differently, and as long as nobody gets hurt or breaks the law, who cares?

[Steve S 2]

If there are doubts you should get them resolved before filing for a K-1.

I respectfully disagree. I imagine almost all engaged people have doubts at one time or another, if they are at all honest with themselves. Even if they know fully in their hearts that they to be together for the rest of their lives. Is it any surprise that there may be even more doubts and nagging thoughts when much less time has been spent together than in a typical, non-international relationship?

To use it as a vacation together to see if you might want to marry is borderline visa fraud.

She is leaving a good job, flat, family and friends for a one-way flight to America. That cannot be trivialized as a "vacation". We signed an intent to marry and are truthful about the intention. There is no visa fraud.

If you do want to marry a foreign woman you need to either wait two years or file for a waver.

I am not in this to marry a foreign woman. I am concerned about any future visa applications for anyone else. Nothing against men who decide to try again overseas, just to say these waivers, etc. are not a concern for me. But I do not want to dwell further on thoughts about "what if?" because I believe our marriage is going to succeed.

Personally in a situation like yours I don't think most people are looking for advice. I think they are really looking for confirmation that they are doing the right thing and you are not.

Nobody else can tell me I am doing the right thing or not, even if they spend hours or days getting to know me and hearing the whole situation, not just reading a few paragraphs written after several glasses of wine which don't fully or even necessarily accurately describe the relationship. I just wanted to pose some thought questions that are in some way related to my situation, and it has been helpful to me as I wrote earlier to read and write on the topic. The encouraging posts as well as the more negative ones like yours have all been helpful in one way or another, and I appreciate all of your contributions.

[Rob_Lesya 4]

As far as using the 90 days as a trial period being "borderline Visa fraud," I disagree. The requirements for a K1 visa are that both couples are free to marry, and that they marry within 90 days. There is nothing else in the law that says otherwise.

Actually there IS another requirement --

(From I-129F Instructions)--

You may file this petition if:

1. You are a U.S. citizen, and

2. You and your fiancé(e) intend to marry within 90 days of your fiancé(e) entering the United States, and are both free to marry

Remember, you and the fiancee actually have to sign statements affirming that intent. So, filing the petition when you don't actually have that intent would be a pretty good case for fraud. Of course the difficulty is in PROVING what your actual intent was at any point in the process ---- a good reason NOT to come on forums like this and discuss your intent if you ARE thinking of using the K-1 as a "trial period."

Of course people are going to do whatever they want. I guess I would just prefer to encourage people to act like responsible adults and be certain of their decision before starting this process rather than encouraging them to act like ...well... like something other than responsible adults.

Of course, I'm also the guy who thinks that co-sponsers shouldn't be allowed for K Visas. If you can't afford to support a family you have no business getting married, no matter where the spouse is from.

Again, love is wonderful but we're talking here about being a "responsible adult."

And of course almost none of this has anything to do with the OPs original questions, so.....

[Blues Fairy 0]

In any case, I say again: who are you or me or any of us to judge how a couple conducts the 90 day period their K1 visa legitimately allows? As long as the law is followed, and they either marry or the non-USC departs before day 91, there is no problem. I see the argument against using 90 days as a trial period as the same argument against sex before marriage. If two consenting adults don't mind, why is it anyone else's business?

Because two consenting adults do not increase the backlog of cases at the USCIS with their application to have sex. K-1 filers, however, do and if they use their K-1 as a trial period they burden the government agency, paid for by our tax dollars, with a potentially useless case of paperwork. Sure, every K-1 has a probability of failure but for "trial" filers, this probability increases several times. It's not only stupid but irresponsible toward the taxpayer, to say nothing of the earnest filers who have to wait in line.

[mox 298]

Actually there IS another requirement --

(From I-129F Instructions)--

You may file this petition if:

1. You are a U.S. citizen, and

2. You and your fiancé(e) intend to marry within 90 days of your fiancé(e) entering the United States, and are both free to marry

Remember, you and the fiancee actually have to sign statements affirming that intent. So, filing the petition when you don't actually have that intent would be a pretty good case for fraud. Of course the difficulty is in PROVING what your actual intent was at any point in the process ---- a good reason NOT to come on forums like this and discuss your intent if you ARE thinking of using the K-1 as a "trial period."

Nothing about using the 90 days as a trial period is mutually exclusive to the requirement that you intend to marry. Obviously if you didn't intend to marry, then your decision has already been made, and you wouldn't be filing a K1. There's nothing wrong with saying you intend to marry, with a caveat that you want to make absolutely sure within your 90 day period.

In any case, I say again: who are you or me or any of us to judge how a couple conducts the 90 day period their K1 visa legitimately allows? As long as the law is followed, and they either marry or the non-USC departs before day 91, there is no problem. I see the argument against using 90 days as a trial period as the same argument against sex before marriage. If two consenting adults don't mind, why is it anyone else's business?

Because two consenting adults do not increase the backlog of cases at the USCIS with their application to have sex. K-1 filers, however, do and if they use their K-1 as a trial period they burden the government agency, paid for by our tax dollars, with a potentially useless case of paperwork. Sure, every K-1 has a probability of failure but for "trial" filers, this probability increases several times.

So you're arguing that it shouldn't be used as a trial period because it clogs up the system, which is not a legal argument. And certainly there's no evidence to support this claim either way (can you cite a percentage of filers who use the system in this manner?), and I could just as well argue that anyone who files clogs up the system, so maybe nobody should file, or maybe we should only limit filing from countries who have a higher likelihood of being approved. And of course all K1's are "potentially useless case[es] of paperwork" because the non-USC always has the option of returning to his or her country anyway.

It's not only stupid but irresponsible toward the taxpayer, to say nothing of the earnest filers who have to wait in line.

It may be stupid, but there's no law against stupid. IIRC, your tax dollars do not fund a K1 visa at all. The fees paid into the system pay for the entire process. I believe (but not 100% sure) that this was Congressionally mandated a few years back.

[slim 1,523]

If your upper head says yes

Both heads have to agree. As hard as it is to tell the one head to shut up for a minute, you have to make the conscious decision on whether or not to go through with the process using ONLY the upper head. I should know.

From listening to my SO and her friends, the Russian men are borderline immature in the way they show their affection. Like Jr. High crush style. And sometimes it reaches a disturbing level, as I have witnessed with an admirer of my SO while I was visiting Russia. Luckily he spoke enough English so i could convey my feelings on the subject at 3am when he wouldn't stop calling. Silly boys.

No extradition. 'Nuff said.

your tax dollars do not fund a K1 visa at all. The fees paid into the system pay for the entire process.

Yep, so if they're paying for it, they should get whatever they want and have as many tries as they wanna try.

For the record, I don't think using the 90-day window as a trial period is a good idea. I brought my wife over here on a "trial period" and we're 2 and 1/2 years into it, still trying. Interpret that however you want.

[Rob_Lesya 4]

Actually there IS another requirement --

(From I-129F Instructions)--

You may file this petition if:

1. You are a U.S. citizen, and

2. You and your fiancé(e) intend to marry within 90 days of your fiancé(e) entering the United States, and are both free to marry

Remember, you and the fiancee actually have to sign statements affirming that intent. So, filing the petition when you don't actually have that intent would be a pretty good case for fraud. Of course the difficulty is in PROVING what your actual intent was at any point in the process ---- a good reason NOT to come on forums like this and discuss your intent if you ARE thinking of using the K-1 as a "trial period."

Nothing about using the 90 days as a trial period is mutually exclusive to the requirement that you intend to marry. Obviously if you didn't intend to marry, then your decision has already been made, and you wouldn't be filing a K1. There's nothing wrong with saying you intend to marry, with a caveat that you want to make absolutely sure within your 90 day period.

Let's see---

"might marry" -- nope, that's not what it says....

'intend to marry IF".... no

"intend to marry assuming"... no

"intend to marry with the caveat that".... no

Let's see --- yep, we ARE writing and talking in the English language.....

Dictionary definitions of "intend" and/or "intent" --- "to plan" "to have in mind to do something" "to have in mind for a particular purpose or use" Hmmmm... nothing really there about conditionals, or contingencies, or caveats.

Although I DO think you've hit upon the solution ---- EVERYone who wants to use the K-1 as a "trial period" should be completely open and honest (which is after all, the "responsible adult" thing to do ) and include this caveat language within their "Statement of Intent". If USCIS approves their petitions and the Embassy issues the visas with these caveats in place -- then more power to them and enjoy the "free trial"!! Anyone out there willing to take that challenge?