Americans jailed in Egypt (cnn.com video)

[Meriem_DZ 37]

Americans jailed in Egypt.

LINK TO VIDEO

[Dr. A ♥ O 203]

Interesting watch! Thx M!

I don't understand how that one couple can say they didn't know that it was against muslim law? Didn't they do their own research before trying to adopt a child? This was my first time to see Suzanne Mubarak on TV. I didn't know she was against human trafficking until today.

One of the things I want to do while in Egypt was work with the orphan's. There are so many abandoned children I hear about because of the laws that don't allow adoption. Whole baby units filled with children that need to be picked up, and loved, and cared for even if their fate is to remain an orphan until of age. I think I will stick to a known organization that I can support and offer my services to for now. I know my university AUC has some volunteer programs so I'll look into that first.

[Ihavequestions 419]

Interesting watch! Thx M!

I don't understand how that one couple can say they didn't know that it was against muslim law? Didn't they do their own research before trying to adopt a child? This was my first time to see Suzanne Mubarak on TV. I didn't know she was against human trafficking until today.

One of the things I want to do while in Egypt was work with the orphan's. There are so many abandoned children I hear about because of the laws that don't allow adoption. Whole baby units filled with children that need to be picked up, and loved, and cared for even if their fate is to remain an orphan until of age. I think I will stick to a known organization that I can support and offer my services to for now. I know my university AUC has some volunteer programs so I'll look into that first.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but adoption is not against Islam. If I understand correctly, the crime is changing the child's name.

Olivia, that's the reason there's no adoption in Egypt. The children in orphanages aren't children without families. They are children who can't be given a family name because they are children of shame ... illigitimate children. These children aren't issued a birth certificate and, because of this, don't have access to the government's medical care or the national education system. "Of age" really means old enough to be put out. For boys that happens between 8 and 10, when they, literally, are put out into the street to beg or sell packets of tissue or brushes for money. For girls that means a very early marriage.

Yes, Olivia, these children need people to love them and support them. That would be a noble task for you while you're here.

[Meriem_DZ 37]

Here is the written article about it. It gives a little more information about what happened. The thing I found interesting was the part that said the women presented birth certificates that showed them as the birth moms and the US embassy became suspicious because they thought the women were to old to be mothers. I would hate to be in their shoes. I guess by bringing their plight to the international media will help them. But still they committed forgery.

Meriem

Link to story

Egypt says adoptive moms were human smugglers

By Tim Lister and Mary Rogers

CNN

CAIRO, Egypt (CNN) -- Suzanne Hagelof and Iris Botros dreamed of adopting babies. Separately, they visited orphanages in Egypt. Hagelof adopted a child, and Botros was in the process of adopting twins, when they ran foul of authorities. Now they are in jail, accused of being part of a conspiracy to traffic children.

Last week, the two women were led into a Cairo courtroom in handcuffs, along with six other people. They stood in a big black cage in the courtroom, looking apprehensive amid the hubbub.

To their defenders, all they were trying to do was provide orphans with a better chance in life. To the prosecution, they were involved in forging documents to try to adopt children illegally and smuggle them out of the country.

The accused include two doctors, a nun who ran an orphanage, and two Americans. VideoWatch the women get bundled into court »

A year ago, Hagelof, a U.S. citizen who lives in Egypt with her husband, adopted a child from an orphanage run by the Coptic Christian Church, a religious minority in Egypt. She says no money changed hands.

Several months later, Luis Andros, a U.S. citizen who is originally from Greece, and his wife, Iris Botros, left their restaurant business in North Carolina for Egypt. Botros, who is originally from Egypt, visited another orphanage run by the church. She paid the orphanage about $4,600 for the twins -- partly for clothes and partly as a donation.

Both women wanted to take the children to the United States -- in Hagelof's case for a visit, but in Botros' case to begin a new life in Wake Forest, North Carolina. And that's where the trouble began.

To get a visa for the children, both women went to the U.S. Embassy in Cairo. According to their attorneys, the documents they presented included birth certificates and certificates signed by doctors stating they were the natural mothers.

According to defense attorneys, the two women knew they were using forged documents.

Embassy officials became suspicious of the documents -- partly because the women seemed too old to be the mothers. Both Hagelof and Botros are in their mid- to late forties.

The embassy contacted Egyptian authorities, and both couples were arrested soon afterward; so were two doctors who had written the birth certificates for the three children. Neither the U.S. Embassy nor the U.S. State Department will comment on the case, citing the ongoing trial.

The three children are now at a private, nonreligious orphanage in Cairo.

Botros' husband, Andros, blames the embassy for their plight. Asked through the bars of the courtroom cage what had happened, he replied, "Well, our American Embassy, instead of helping the people, they put them in jail."

His wife interjected, insisting they would not get a fair trial. A few feet away, Suzanne Hagelof called out, "We want to tell our story," while her husband, Medhat, looked on, quiet and dejected. As reporters tried to talk to the defendants, a guard intervened, shouting "Sit down, sit down."

Adoption has long been illegal under Egyptian law as well as being forbidden under sharia, Muslim religious law. Fostering is legal but uncommon.

It has become a high-profile issue since Suzanne Mubarak, wife of the president, embarked on a campaign to stamp out human trafficking. She recently told CNN that human trafficking "exists in all societies."

"I came to realize what an insidious crime this was and how it was just really built on profit. On not only low morals, on no morals at all," she said.

And that's how the prosecution seems to be framing this case, using a law passed last year that provides for tough penalties for human trafficking. Khalil Adil El Hamani, the attorney representing Hagelof, says Egyptian authorities want to prove that all the defendants are from one gang and are trafficking children, so as to make the case seem to be a giant conspiracy.

Both couples insist they had no idea what they were doing was illegal and have no link with human trafficking. The attorney representing Botros and her husband says their only crime was to dream of being parents.

"They are now are in jail because of this dream," he told CNN after the first hearing in the case a week ago. "They never thought that they will be in jail. They thought that they are going to adopt only. They didn't think they are making something against the law in Egypt."

All eight defendants remain in jail -- the men at the Tora prison in Cairo, well known for its overcrowding. The next stage of the trial takes place May 16, and proceedings could last six to eight months. If they are convicted, the accused could each face up to 10 years in prison.

[Nothing1234 2]

So sad...

So in other words...let these children rot? I don't get it. If you are foster parent, you would not be able to remove the children from the country....how can you help out? Donate money that these children will never see or benefit from? Live there? Blah! No wonder 3rd world counties can never turn themselves around...their beliefs and laws keep them from ever bettering the lives of their people. Only the lives of the already rich and fat cats...

I'm shocked about Suzanne too...who knew...I read a bit about her International Peace Movement (globally as it is stated) perhaps she should take a look in the military and jails there... That is a laugh.

[Dr. A ♥ O 203]

Interesting watch! Thx M!

I don't understand how that one couple can say they didn't know that it was against muslim law? Didn't they do their own research before trying to adopt a child? This was my first time to see Suzanne Mubarak on TV. I didn't know she was against human trafficking until today.

One of the things I want to do while in Egypt was work with the orphan's. There are so many abandoned children I hear about because of the laws that don't allow adoption. Whole baby units filled with children that need to be picked up, and loved, and cared for even if their fate is to remain an orphan until of age. I think I will stick to a known organization that I can support and offer my services to for now. I know my university AUC has some volunteer programs so I'll look into that first.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but adoption is not against Islam. If I understand correctly, the crime is changing the child's name.

Olivia, that's the reason there's no adoption in Egypt. The children in orphanages aren't children without families. They are children who can't be given a family name because they are children of shame ... illigitimate children. These children aren't issued a birth certificate and, because of this, don't have access to the government's medical care or the national education system. "Of age" really means old enough to be put out. For boys that happens between 8 and 10, when they, literally, are put out into the street to beg or sell packets of tissue or brushes for money. For girls that means a very early marriage.

Yes, Olivia, these children need people to love them and support them. That would be a noble task for you while you're here.

Sorry I should have been more clear. That is my understanding as well. However, it is connected to the religion and I also understood that only Muslims can do the adopting of Muslim children and not Christians and especially not foreigners from Western countries.

I've seen the children you're talking about working the streets there and somehow it seems less human the way they do it there when there are plenty of loving homes and families in the world willing to adopt these unwanted children providing them a childhood regardless of the social stigma in that society. I am especially angered about the child marriages that go on there and in that region for girls because they don't get a choice in the matter. If only I could change the world.

[Chica Yeyé 41]

[Ihavequestions 419]

So sad...

It really is.

So in other words...let these children rot?

That's pretty much it. They have no identity, no rights, no proper medical care, and no real education. All because thei parents weren't married.

Granted, it takes two to make a baby, but how many times do illigitimate children happen because promise to marry "later" in return for some satisfaction "now"? Or rape, rape in a place where a woman wasn't raped if there aren't four male witnesses to testify on her behalf?

There are no DNA tests and subsequent custody/child support in these matters. All a man has to do is say he never had sex with that woman and he's absolved of any responsibility.

I don't get it. If you are foster parent, you would not be able to remove the children from the country....how can you help out? Donate money that these children will never see or benefit from? Live there? Blah!

There's no need for foster parents in Egypt where families are large and go on for miles. If a child is truly orphaned in the senst that "orphan" means both parents have died, it most certainly goes to live with family. But these orphans have parents - parents who are socially prohibited from raising it.

What is really twisted is Orphan's Day, a national holiday in April. That's where everyone gathers donations for the poor orphans, schools find orphans to visit for the day, money, clothing, toys, and food are collected and donated, and the public generally SUPPORTS the system. Instead of being part of the solution, the problem is perpetuated by feeding and clothing it.

No wonder 3rd world counties can never turn themselves around...their beliefs and laws keep them from ever bettering the lives of their people. Only the lives of the already rich and fat cats...

Yep.

[Ihavequestions 419]

I've seen the children you're talking about working the streets there and somehow it seems less human the way they do it there when there are plenty of loving homes and families in the world willing to adopt these unwanted children providing them a childhood regardless of the social stigma in that society. I am especially angered about the child marriages that go on there and in that region for girls because they don't get a choice in the matter. If only I could change the world.

If Egypt opened it's doors to adopting orphans, Egypt would have to admit people who aren't married have sex and make babies.

That will never happen.

The problem is bigger than it appears. Consider the numbers reported to WHO detailing the number and health of children at birth. Well, if there's no birth certificate, there's no birth, right? Thus Egypt's numbers are horribly skewed.

Olivia, you can change the world. Maybe not the entire world in one fell swoop, but you have the power to change the world. You have opinions. You have morals and values. More importantly, you have a voice and the freedom to use that voice. These children don't. Maybe you could be their voice.

[sweet_peach 0]

This is really sad. So many kids and babies just sitting there needing someone and people who are willing to take them and give them a good home.

Hayz and I looked into adopting a child from Lebanon, but its almost impossible. There are thousands of kids in Lebanon without parents / families from the war of 2006 and this is where they will stay because decent people cant have them because of the government / religious reason.

[Dr. A ♥ O 203]

I've seen the children you're talking about working the streets there and somehow it seems less human the way they do it there when there are plenty of loving homes and families in the world willing to adopt these unwanted children providing them a childhood regardless of the social stigma in that society. I am especially angered about the child marriages that go on there and in that region for girls because they don't get a choice in the matter. If only I could change the world.

If Egypt opened it's doors to adopting orphans, Egypt would have to admit people who aren't married have sex and make babies.

That will never happen.

The problem is bigger than it appears. Consider the numbers reported to WHO detailing the number and health of children at birth. Well, if there's no birth certificate, there's no birth, right? Thus Egypt's numbers are horribly skewed.

Olivia, you can change the world. Maybe not the entire world in one fell swoop, but you have the power to change the world. You have opinions. You have morals and values. More importantly, you have a voice and the freedom to use that voice. These children don't. Maybe you could be their voice.

That would require activism and activists get imprisoned in Egypt. I never want to go to prison especially not an Egyptian one.

[Ihavequestions 419]

That would require activism and activists get imprisoned in Egypt. I never want to go to prison especially not an Egyptian one.

Of course you don't want to go to prison. I don't want you to go, either.

Activism comes in many ways, Olivia. I'm not suggesting that you should stand outside of government buildings and wave banners or picket signs objecting to whatever the cause might be. What I am suggesting, however, is that you can find a way to do it.