SAWASDEE 3 (2009 Thai thread restarted)

[AaronLV 12]

You are free to Sharpie out any private information you don't wish to share.

I would not recommend doing this. They wanted to see the chats at the BKK embassy. My original submission I had done this.

I noticed many people mentioned that they collected chat logs for the interview. Regarding chat/IM logs for proof of an ongoing relationship, I don't plan on including them for a few reasons:

1.) I don't like the idea of some stranger at the embassy or in the govt reading over private conversations between my fiancee and I.

2.) I am a software engineer, so I don't like to spend too much time sitting in front of a computer after work (since I already spend a million hours as it is)

3.) We primarily chat over the phone, and only via IM occasionally

4.) I haven't collected any chat logs for the last year anyway.

I plan on including some carefully selected emails from each month for the interview. We should have lots of photos, receipts of flowers I have sent her, passport stamps, boarding passes, itineraries. I have proof that I have spent almost 3 of the last 12 months in Thailand with her as well, which I suspect will be quite helpful indeed. I guess I will consider saving some IM logs.

We primarily talked on the phone also, however, the consular wanted to see communication from Her to Me, not myself always contacting Her. With the hundreds of pages of phone calls they were all me calling her, and I had to explain that she would call me hang-up (free call), and then I would call back. I was able to document this on our second trip to the embassy, by getting a print out of all my missed calls on my cell phone. The original interview I included the vell phone bills showing all the text messages she sends me, and that was not good enough to show evidence of the relationship, the consular wanted substance, showing we talked. As for the IM, on the second trip I gave the raw files with our communication, I went through it and scrubbed out the stuff I didn't want him reading, but still had 48 pages of chat logs over a 5 month period. You can look at my experience in some previous posts around the end of Jan and beginning of Feb.

I am a software engineer also, and he mentioned to me, you are in the computer field I would expect more electronic means of communication. I explained she is not good with the computer and it is easier to talk on the phone.

What you have listed is everything I brought in and more, and we still had to come back with more proof (flower receipts, letters, proof I had spent months there). I would personally bring as much ammunition as you have whether you agree you should have to show them or not, the fact of the matter is, that is what they want, so provide it and be done with it. Also make sure it is two way information, not just contact from you. Just my 2 cents.

[mommymeow 0]

Just one quick question, will I be able to use my new driving license from here that has both detail in Thai/Eng when we visit Michigan after I get there?

[scandal 951]

Also, I have been reading in this thread that it is not, for some reason, a good idea to include photos of an engagement ceremony. Seriously? I included photos from our engagement ceremony with the I-129F as proof that we are in fact engaged, along w/ the engagement ring receipt. In order to be considered married, you have to actually be legally married last time I checked, and as a result registered somewhere as such. Is this really going to be a problem for us? Are they really not able to understand the difference between engaged and married at BKK? <rolls eyes>

I had this question too when I first got started on our K-1 filing last summer. We had our ceremonial Buddhist ceremony in September.

Here's one old VJ thread that somewhat addresses this topic: http://www.visajourney.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=51973

I started a new topic on VJ last summer to ask SPECIFICALLY about Thai Buddhist ceremony without registering at amphur.

Unfortunately I think that discussion thread was deleted from VJ, I can't find it any longer.

As I recall, the consensus opinion that I was getting was that it was taking an unnecessary risk to advertise our ceremony - all it could do was hurt us by providing a reason to claim we were already married and not entitled to a K1 filing. The point was also made that even if BKK consulate understands that a ceremonial wedding is not considered a legal wedding in Thailand, that won't be the case in the US. And that a POE officer, or later during AOS/removing conditions, we were taking a risk of invalidating our status.

Personally I think that's overly dramatic, but there were vocal VJ'ers saying such things.

I did contact the embassy by email, and had this exchange with them. They gave the 'all-clear' for us to have our ceremony, so long as it was not registered at amphur:

--- On Fri, 7/18/08, Bangkok Auto Replies (Not for Public Use) <visasbkk2@state.gov> wrote:

From: Bangkok Auto Replies (Not for Public Use) <visasbkk2@state.gov>

Subject: RE:General Question: K1 visa filing with NO REGISTRATION at Amphur?

To: xxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxx.com

Date: Friday, July 18, 2008, 11:16 AM

Dear Ron,

Thank you for your inquiry regarding the Thai Buddhist marriage ceremony without registration in regards to the K-1 versus CR1/K-3 question. Since the Thai Buddhist marriage ceremony is not officially registered with a civil authority in Thailand it is not considered an officially recognized marriage by either Thai authorities or U.S. authorities. Thus, if you choose you can go ahead and have the Thai Buddhist marriage in Thailand it will have no negative effective on the K-1 visa status, so you will be free to marry the applicant civilly in the U.S. after she is issued the K-1 visa.

Best Regards,

Visas Unit

U.S. Embassy Bangkok

From: Ron [mailto:xxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxx.com]

Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 3:35 PM

To: Bangkok ACS

Subject: General Question: K1 visa filing with NO REGISTRATION at Amphur?

Hello,

I am a US citizen who is considering a K1 visa filing for my Thai fiancee - I have not begun any filing yet.

I am aware that a legal marriage in Thailand requires registration at local Amphur, and if we have such registration we MUST file K3 spousal visa rather than K1 finacee visa.

What I would like to CONFIRM is whether having a traditional Buddhist ceremony WITHOUT an Amphur registration could prejudice in any way a K1 fiancee visa filing? If we perform such a ceremony (we have not yet done so) but do not have it registered at Amphur, could this in any way lead to denial of eligibility for K1 visa - either at the initial I-129F filing, or at the consulate interview in Bangkok, or at POE?

Thanks for any assistance you can offer,

Ron

[scandal 951]

Just a heads-up ....

If you are Thai, or have a Thai partner -- you may want to check out this site: http://www.usvisa4thai.com

It's sort of a Thai version of VJ - basically everything about US immigration.

My fiancee found this last week and has been going gangbusters on it ever since - I think she's up to about 45 posts right now.

I don't read Thai, so I can't tell you exactly what it's all about. But it seems to be a very active community both for Thais who are in the process of doing their visa petitions and applications as well as for Thais who have already made the move to the US and are looking for some back-home community.

My fiancee has already found a number of Thai people in our area in the western suburbs of Chicago, so she's thrilled with having some new friends before she's even moved here. There seem to also be forums there for Texas, California, and other areas of the country.

Anyway, I believe that Chada (of Danny&Chada fame) is already active on that site.

I just wanted to bring it to everyone's attention, since it may be a useful resource for others.

[rsn 135]

Also, I have been reading in this thread that it is not, for some reason, a good idea to include photos of an engagement ceremony. Seriously? I included photos from our engagement ceremony with the I-129F as proof that we are in fact engaged, along w/ the engagement ring receipt. In order to be considered married, you have to actually be legally married last time I checked, and as a result registered somewhere as such. Is this really going to be a problem for us? Are they really not able to understand the difference between engaged and married at BKK? <rolls eyes>

I had this question too when I first got started on our K-1 filing last summer. We had our ceremonial Buddhist ceremony in September.

Here's one old VJ thread that somewhat addresses this topic: http://www.visajourney.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=51973

I started a new topic on VJ last summer to ask SPECIFICALLY about Thai Buddhist ceremony without registering at amphur.

Unfortunately I think that discussion thread was deleted from VJ, I can't find it any longer.

As I recall, the consensus opinion that I was getting was that it was taking an unnecessary risk to advertise our ceremony - all it could do was hurt us by providing a reason to claim we were already married and not entitled to a K1 filing. The point was also made that even if BKK consulate understands that a ceremonial wedding is not considered a legal wedding in Thailand, that won't be the case in the US. And that a POE officer, or later during AOS/removing conditions, we were taking a risk of invalidating our status.

Personally I think that's overly dramatic, but there were vocal VJ'ers saying such things.

I did contact the embassy by email, and had this exchange with them. They gave the 'all-clear' for us to have our ceremony, so long as it was not registered at amphur:

--- On Fri, 7/18/08, Bangkok Auto Replies (Not for Public Use) <visasbkk2@state.gov> wrote:

From: Bangkok Auto Replies (Not for Public Use) <visasbkk2@state.gov>

Subject: RE:General Question: K1 visa filing with NO REGISTRATION at Amphur?

To: xxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxx.com

Date: Friday, July 18, 2008, 11:16 AM

Dear Ron,

Thank you for your inquiry regarding the Thai Buddhist marriage ceremony without registration in regards to the K-1 versus CR1/K-3 question. Since the Thai Buddhist marriage ceremony is not officially registered with a civil authority in Thailand it is not considered an officially recognized marriage by either Thai authorities or U.S. authorities. Thus, if you choose you can go ahead and have the Thai Buddhist marriage in Thailand it will have no negative effective on the K-1 visa status, so you will be free to marry the applicant civilly in the U.S. after she is issued the K-1 visa.

Best Regards,

Visas Unit

U.S. Embassy Bangkok

From: Ron [mailto:xxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxx.com]

Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 3:35 PM

To: Bangkok ACS

Subject: General Question: K1 visa filing with NO REGISTRATION at Amphur?

Hello,

I am a US citizen who is considering a K1 visa filing for my Thai fiancee - I have not begun any filing yet.

I am aware that a legal marriage in Thailand requires registration at local Amphur, and if we have such registration we MUST file K3 spousal visa rather than K1 finacee visa.

What I would like to CONFIRM is whether having a traditional Buddhist ceremony WITHOUT an Amphur registration could prejudice in any way a K1 fiancee visa filing? If we perform such a ceremony (we have not yet done so) but do not have it registered at Amphur, could this in any way lead to denial of eligibility for K1 visa - either at the initial I-129F filing, or at the consulate interview in Bangkok, or at POE?

Thanks for any assistance you can offer,

Ron

It sounds like your ceremony is different from ours. Ours was apparently just a simple engagement ceremony. No monks, no gates, etc, etc. The whole thing took about 20 minutes, then we all ate (me, my fiancee, and her HUGE family). I'm assuming since this was not even a marriage ceremony, then I have even less to worry about, but I've been wrong before. Regardless, I've already told my fiancee to not make light of the fact that we had an engagement ceremony if we (ever) get to the interview portion of the process, and if they ask her about the photos I included, make sure to tell them it was a simple engagement ceremony. W/ the photos, I included a cover letter that clearly stated that they were engagement ceremony photos and I included them in a section I called "engagement proof".

That email you included is very helpful. Thanks for your input on this. Very helpful, as most people seem to be on this site. Best of luck to you and your fiancee on your upcoming interview!

[rsn 135]

You are free to Sharpie out any private information you don't wish to share.

I would not recommend doing this. They wanted to see the chats at the BKK embassy. My original submission I had done this.

I noticed many people mentioned that they collected chat logs for the interview. Regarding chat/IM logs for proof of an ongoing relationship, I don't plan on including them for a few reasons:

1.) I don't like the idea of some stranger at the embassy or in the govt reading over private conversations between my fiancee and I.

2.) I am a software engineer, so I don't like to spend too much time sitting in front of a computer after work (since I already spend a million hours as it is)

3.) We primarily chat over the phone, and only via IM occasionally

4.) I haven't collected any chat logs for the last year anyway.

I plan on including some carefully selected emails from each month for the interview. We should have lots of photos, receipts of flowers I have sent her, passport stamps, boarding passes, itineraries. I have proof that I have spent almost 3 of the last 12 months in Thailand with her as well, which I suspect will be quite helpful indeed. I guess I will consider saving some IM logs.

We primarily talked on the phone also, however, the consular wanted to see communication from Her to Me, not myself always contacting Her. With the hundreds of pages of phone calls they were all me calling her, and I had to explain that she would call me hang-up (free call), and then I would call back. I was able to document this on our second trip to the embassy, by getting a print out of all my missed calls on my cell phone. The original interview I included the vell phone bills showing all the text messages she sends me, and that was not good enough to show evidence of the relationship, the consular wanted substance, showing we talked. As for the IM, on the second trip I gave the raw files with our communication, I went through it and scrubbed out the stuff I didn't want him reading, but still had 48 pages of chat logs over a 5 month period. You can look at my experience in some previous posts around the end of Jan and beginning of Feb.

I am a software engineer also, and he mentioned to me, you are in the computer field I would expect more electronic means of communication. I explained she is not good with the computer and it is easier to talk on the phone.

What you have listed is everything I brought in and more, and we still had to come back with more proof (flower receipts, letters, proof I had spent months there). I would personally bring as much ammunition as you have whether you agree you should have to show them or not, the fact of the matter is, that is what they want, so provide it and be done with it. Also make sure it is two way information, not just contact from you. Just my 2 cents.

You said you had to "come back". Does this mean that you went for an interview and they said something to the effect of "nope, not good enough"? If so, how soon were you allowed to come back and provide the appropriate info?

[AaronLV 12]

She did the interview on a Thursday, got a slip that we need more evidence of relationship on communication from her to me, and had a problem with her birth certificate where her mom's name was spelled wrong. I spent the weekend gathering more evidence and then went back in on Monday. Look back through some of my posts and you can see exactly what we went through. We had 100's of pages of calls, both calling card, cell phone bills, few emails, receipt for engagement rings, cards I had sent, receipts for flowers, 30 pictures, and 48 pages of chat logs with personal conversations blanked out.

I ended up printing out the chat logs with nothing blocked out, reprinted the emails 1 per page, rather then all together, all our sms texts from my cell phone, and 700+ missed calls from my cell phone. We got approved after we took all that information back on Monday.

[johndecka 0]

Just one quick question, will I be able to use my new driving license from here that has both detail in Thai/Eng when we visit Michigan after I get there?

i believe that u'll have to have International Driver license.

[rsn 135]

She did the interview on a Thursday, got a slip that we need more evidence of relationship on communication from her to me, and had a problem with her birth certificate where her mom's name was spelled wrong. I spent the weekend gathering more evidence and then went back in on Monday. Look back through some of my posts and you can see exactly what we went through. We had 100's of pages of calls, both calling card, cell phone bills, few emails, receipt for engagement rings, cards I had sent, receipts for flowers, 30 pictures, and 48 pages of chat logs with personal conversations blanked out.

I ended up printing out the chat logs with nothing blocked out, reprinted the emails 1 per page, rather then all together, all our sms texts from my cell phone, and 700+ missed calls from my cell phone. We got approved after we took all that information back on Monday.

Wow, they sure do like making life difficult for us. Gotta love our govt. It doesn't seem like we should be required to have all this info. I doubt I can get copies of any of my text messages or missed calls. I would hope that this isn't a requirement. She is doing the same thing as your fiancee was: calling and then hanging up followed up by a call from me which costs less money. Based on a lot of the stories I've seen here (with some exceptions) it sounds like the officers at the embassy are pretty unreasonable and illogical in their thinking. Go figure. Sigh.

[AaronLV 12]

Just one quick question, will I be able to use my new driving license from here that has both detail in Thai/Eng when we visit Michigan after I get there?

It depends on which Thai license it is, the license my wife has is a 1 year license and is in both Thai and English. The 5 year license you can go in and get one that is completely in English which is the international one.

I am letting my wife drive on her 1 year Thai license, assuming if she gets pulled over the police office won't have a clue. I also gave the number to my insurance company and they accepted her 1 year thai license.

As a side note in Nevada, technically the international license is only valid for 90 days.

[AaronLV 12]

Wow, they sure do like making life difficult for us. Gotta love our govt. It doesn't seem like we should be required to have all this info. I doubt I can get copies of any of my text messages or missed calls. I would hope that this isn't a requirement. She is doing the same thing as your fiancee was: calling and then hanging up followed up by a call from me which costs less money. Based on a lot of the stories I've seen here (with some exceptions) it sounds like the officers at the embassy are pretty unreasonable and illogical in their thinking. Go figure. Sigh.

It all sounds unreasonable, and especially to all of us who are not having fraudulent relationships, but you have to remember the tens of thousands of people before us that have tried to get into the country and have gotten in, that is why these requirements are in place. It seems illogical and unreasonable to us, but to them, I am sure they look at each person who comes to the window, potential fraud and they have to figure out if they are not.

[ThaitoUSA 15]

I certainly can empathize with your inconvenience, however I do not find it illogical or unreasonable to ask for a sampling of communication going both ways. Thanks to you sharing your story, Aaron, countless others shall be prepared by having communication from both partners.

They do not specify that it must be e-mail, chat logs, text messages, or snail mail. You are free to communicate using any number of them. They just want to see that both partners are in fact communicating.

[rsn 135]

I certainly can empathize with your inconvenience, however I do not find it illogical or unreasonable to ask for a sampling of communication going both ways. Thanks to you sharing your story, Aaron, countless others shall be prepared by having communication from both partners.

They do not specify that it must be e-mail, chat logs, text messages, or snail mail. You are free to communicate using any number of them. They just want to see that both partners are in fact communicating.

I never said I found it illogical or unreasonable to ask for a sampling of communication. If this is all they ask for, then I have no complaints. However, the amount of evidence they apparently asked of AaronLV and some others that have posted on this thread borders on insanity. In fact, it doesn't just border on insanity, it crosses the line.

We primarily talked on the phone also, however, the consular wanted to see communication from Her to Me, not myself always contacting Her. With the hundreds of pages of phone calls they were all me calling her, and I had to explain that she would call me hang-up (free call), and then I would call back. I was able to document this on our second trip to the embassy, by getting a print out of all my missed calls on my cell phone. The original interview I included the vell phone bills showing all the text messages she sends me, and that was not good enough to show evidence of the relationship, the consular wanted substance, showing we talked. As for the IM, on the second trip I gave the raw files with our communication, I went through it and scrubbed out the stuff I didn't want him reading, but still had 48 pages of chat logs over a 5 month period. You can look at my experience in some previous posts around the end of Jan and beginning of Feb.

I am a software engineer also, and he mentioned to me, you are in the computer field I would expect more electronic means of communication. I explained she is not good with the computer and it is easier to talk on the phone.

What you have listed is everything I brought in and more, and we still had to come back with more proof (flower receipts, letters, proof I had spent months there). I would personally bring as much ammunition as you have whether you agree you should have to show them or not, the fact of the matter is, that is what they want, so provide it and be done with it. Also make sure it is two way information, not just contact from you. Just my 2 cents.

48 pages of chat logs, hundreds of pages of phone calls, records of text messages, flower receipts, letters, proof of spending months with his fiancee, and still this was apparently not enough for the embassy. This is in no way a request for a "sampling" of information. Not even close.

[ThaitoUSA 15]

It was not the amount of evidence that was questioned. All the interviewing officer asked for was evidence that Aaron's fiancée contacted him. Please correct me if that is not accurate Aaron, but I believe that was the sticking point. It had nothing to do with quantity.

[rsn 135]

It was not the amount of evidence that was questioned. All the interviewing officer asked for was evidence that Aaron's fiancée contacted him. Please correct me if that is not accurate Aaron, but I believe that was the sticking point. It had nothing to do with quantity.

I would think the chat logs and text messages would prove that she contacted him, as well as the letters (assuming some of the letters were from her though).

Edited March 23, 2009 by rsn