American women vs Arab women raising children

[morocco4ever 63]

Personally, I think this thread shows that too many Arabs/muslims are immigrating to the west for the wrong reasons. Wanting to make more money in the US or wanting to take advantage of the welfare system in Europe is not a valid ground for immigration. Immigration is not a right it is a privilege! And privileges have to be earned. If you have no desire to assimilate to the culture of the country that you chose to move to then you have no right to stay. If you want to wear an abaya and live like a ME muslim then you should stay in the ME. I think it should be far harder for muslims to immigrate to the west as the majority refuse to assimilate and insult those that were generous enough to allow them the privilege of living in their country. We have as much right to maintain our more advanced and egalitarian standard of living as you do to retain your old-fashioned way of life. After all, if islam and the ME is so great then why are you trying to leave it? I'm getting sick of Arabs whine about the prejudice they experience in the west when the extremely mild difficulties they face in the west are nothing compared to what foreigners/non-muslims suffer in the ME. You can smell the hypocrisy coming off the average arab from a mile away. And I think Hanginginthere's description is a pretty mild and tame depiction of the average Arab, not all of them; but the average and it wasn't racist, it was pretty accurate. Only when you say All rather than some, average or most is there a problem. Sometimes pointing out the truth of what the average person in a culture behaves like hurts. And that is what we are pointing out here, the average; not all. And when individuals or whole societies refuse to admit their faults then they are doomed to continue those faults.

I do find your words a bit harsh. I find there are a lot of people here from the middle east that came here to improve their life. If that is what makes them happy then go for it. I think they have every right to wear their Abayas and live like a ME muslim. The only difference is that they don't have the right to dictate how others choose to live.

As for whining about prejudices. Well it is very real, and I have witnessed it. I find it quite sad that an entire culture is judged soley on the actions of radicals.

As for the individuals and societies that refuse to admit their faults, well that can be stated on many cultures, Americans as well.

The majority of us here are derived from immigrants. I may have been raised here all of my life, but I know for a fact that the only people that can claim to be original Americans are the Native Americans. I thank them for the right to live here. I thank them for allowing me to live in their country as to how I was raised, not by their traditions.

I hope this doesn't end up to be another flame thread. That was not my intentions. Just to point out that there are times to speak up, and then there are times to let things slide. The woman that S&S encountered needed to be addressed. Do I think it will change her opinion of Americans? No. But I would certainly hope that it will let her know that sometimes it is best to keep her opinions to herself. I only wish that more people could simply look inside themselves to find their own faults rather than constantly looking in others for theirs.

Edited October 8, 2008 by morocco4ever

[Ban Hammer 13,133]

Did you travel to the mid east and suffer?

i did.

[ginny20 0]

Personally, I think this thread shows that too many Arabs/muslims are immigrating to the west for the wrong reasons. Wanting to make more money in the US or wanting to take advantage of the welfare system in Europe is not a valid ground for immigration. Immigration is not a right it is a privilege! And privileges have to be earned. If you have no desire to assimilate to the culture of the country that you chose to move to then you have no right to stay. If you want to wear an abaya and live like a ME muslim then you should stay in the ME. I think it should be far harder for muslims to immigrate to the west as the majority refuse to assimilate and insult those that were generous enough to allow them the privilege of living in their country. We have as much right to maintain our more advanced and egalitarian standard of living as you do to retain your old-fashioned way of life. After all, if islam and the ME is so great then why are you trying to leave it? I'm getting sick of Arabs whine about the prejudice they experience in the west when the extremely mild difficulties they face in the west are nothing compared to what foreigners/non-muslims suffer in the ME. You can smell the hypocrisy coming off the average arab from a mile away. And I think Hanginginthere's description is a pretty mild and tame depiction of the average Arab, not all of them; but the average and it wasn't racist, it was pretty accurate. Only when you say All rather than some, average or most is there a problem. Sometimes pointing out the truth of what the average person in a culture behaves like hurts. And that is what we are pointing out here, the average; not all. And when individuals or whole societies refuse to admit their faults then they are doomed to continue those faults.

Having worked with hundreds of people who define themselves as Arabs in Morocco over the past four yeas, in Arabic, I find this characterization of 'Arabs' bizarre and ridiculous. Saying that most people (or the 'typical' person) of a particular racial or ethnic group have characteristics that, because of their membership in that group, make them inferior to another ethnic group(s) is racist, period. Also, where in the law does it say wanting to make money in the US is not a valid reason to immigrate? Economic reasoning motivates most migration historically and all over the world.

[doodlebugg 10]

Did you travel to the mid east and suffer?

i did.

please explain how exactly you suffered.

[Beauty for Ashes 257]

Personally, I think this thread shows that too many Arabs/muslims are immigrating to the west for the wrong reasons. Wanting to make more money in the US or wanting to take advantage of the welfare system in Europe is not a valid ground for immigration. Immigration is not a right it is a privilege! And privileges have to be earned. If you have no desire to assimilate to the culture of the country that you chose to move to then you have no right to stay. If you want to wear an abaya and live like a ME muslim then you should stay in the ME. I think it should be far harder for muslims to immigrate to the west as the majority refuse to assimilate and insult those that were generous enough to allow them the privilege of living in their country. We have as much right to maintain our more advanced and egalitarian standard of living as you do to retain your old-fashioned way of life. After all, if islam and the ME is so great then why are you trying to leave it? I'm getting sick of Arabs whine about the prejudice they experience in the west when the extremely mild difficulties they face in the west are nothing compared to what foreigners/non-muslims suffer in the ME. You can smell the hypocrisy coming off the average arab from a mile away. And I think Hanginginthere's description is a pretty mild and tame depiction of the average Arab, not all of them; but the average and it wasn't racist, it was pretty accurate. Only when you say All rather than some, average or most is there a problem. Sometimes pointing out the truth of what the average person in a culture behaves like hurts. And that is what we are pointing out here, the average; not all. And when individuals or whole societies refuse to admit their faults then they are doomed to continue those faults.

I do find your words a bit harsh. I find there are a lot of people here from the middle east that came here to improve their life. If that is what makes them happy then go for it. I think they have every right to wear their Abayas and live like a ME muslim. The only difference is that they don't have the right to dictate how others choose to live.

As for whining about prejudices. Well it is very real, and I have witnessed it. I find it quite sad that an entire culture is judged soley on the actions of radicals.

As for the individuals and societies that refuse to admit their faults, well that can be stated on many cultures, Americans as well.

The majority of us here are derived from immigrants. I may have been raised here all of my life, but I know for a fact that the only people that can claim to be original Americans are the Native Americans. I thank them for the right to live here. I thank them for allowing me to live in their country as to how I was raised, not by their traditions.

I hope this doesn't end up to be another flame thread. That was not my intentions. Just to point out that there are times to speak up, and then there are times to let things slide. The woman that S&S encountered needed to be addressed. Do I think it will change her opinion of Americans? No. But I would certainly hope that it will let her know that sometimes it is best to keep her opinions to herself. I only wish that more people could simply look inside themselves to find their own faults rather than constantly looking in others for theirs.

Frankly after being called 2 3 4 5 times and being told not to cry, to take care of someone who is CLEARLY not taking care of me and being made to sit in the car during my sons funeral service and glared at as I tried to talk to my AMERICAN mother and then the babys flowers being not allowed on the grave and to have not a single person in the janazza warmly greet my mother with some kind of condolence and the only conversation with me was to tell me that I needed to move the baby out of the KUFFAR cemetary, I hardly see where I HAVENT experienced reverse racism or ill treatment. That imam could have been gracious to my mom. They could have let us come up to the grave as he was lowered into it. And I could have been treated like a human being after the death of my child. Its been AMERICANS who have sent flowes. AMERICANS who have fed me. Not a single person from his family or from the masjid offered to bring food or has helped me in ANY WAY. An american sent over food from boston market and my husband wouldnt eat it because it was from someone from a CHURCH..

God help me in my topic. Culture problems dont come out when everything is hunky dorey and tragedy doesnt happen. When tragedy beyond your wildest dreams happen, you see the differences in culture. Imagine ANY OF YOU , including you Ta me what ever your name is being told you couldnt watch your baby go into the grave or have some weird guy in a dress glare at your KUFFAR mother all along criticising your funeral arrangements, terrorising your family further. For all of that, I paid the plot the service and the ambulance bills are arriving as I speak. And I am supposed to sit by and think some bimbo telling a very nice American girl that she s not a good mother or americans arent good mothers. I buried my child and I have had absolutely NO SUPPORT from any non american, The non americans tell me I was only allowed to cry 3 days and I am supposed to get over it. The non americans who have NO FUNERAL EXPENSES in their countries cant imagine what I have had to shoulder. Instead of hugs ,condolences, I get phone calls NOT TO CRYN NOT TO MOURN and that it was Allahs will. The whole Allahs will I can buy but not all the nasty kuffar comments. the complete lack of respect for my american christian family by the participants in the jannazza. My mother who never has had an ill word to say about anyone and she is 73 years old and a respected college professor has an AWFUL taste in her mouth from what happened. Can you imagine being yelled at to stay away from your grandchilds coffin?

All this talk is well and good but if you dont think there are VERY MARKED differences between american women and arabs, you need to have your head examined. We are without a shadow of a doubt, leaders thinkers and doers. It may not be the womens fault. They may be raised to be servers and subservient. They can live in fear of being divorced verbally ( Ive lived that and so have others) and their rights mean nothing. Here in the USA if a man divorces you, it has to be in the courts. Please dont think in anyway when *(*& hits the fan that culture doesnt matter. It does. I ve lived it. I may not always voice things politically correct but I was greviously wronged. And I get sick and tired of people being in THIS COUNTRY not appreciating what they have here.. bashing everything and everyone around them

I wanted to say HEY IMAM>. YOUR DA WAH sucks. How can I ever show my american family or any other woman at that service that islam is fair when they were treated so badly by muslims.. Just food for though.. Ruminate over what I just said if you will

I love you guys but I had to say something because what happened to my family really sucked. You dont see the deepest cultural divisions until the world is pulled out from under you

[HLM 1]

Ignoring all the arab bashing and what this topic has turned to- Hanging In There; U r allowed to moun cry n be sad all u want over ur baby. Whats not allowed is the screaming becoz it hurts the deceased!

[Beauty for Ashes 257]

Ignoring all the arab bashing and what this topic has turned to- Hanging In There; U r allowed to moun cry n be sad all u want over ur baby. Whats not allowed is the screaming becoz it hurts the deceased!

No one is screaming. I am talking about the 3 day mourning period that you are supposed to adhere to. The kuffars cry. The kuffars memorialise. The kuffars put flowers on the grave and the babys picture on thetombstone. Horrible kuffars go to therapy. The kuffars do autopsies on how people died. The kuffars charge too much for funerals. The kuffars charge for headstones. And the worst thing ever in the whole world is for your baby to be buried with the horrible kuffars...My poor kuffar mother and my kuffar family > enough already. Stop saying there are no differences in life and death and everything in between. Because there are and to whitewash over it is to lie to you me and everyone else. There are huge differences in how death and life is handled and the dislike of american culture and everything with it except the ability to make money comes shining through...

[UmmSqueakster 54]

My husband was treated like an absolute piece of sh*t by his first boss when she found him praying on his break. He asked for no special treatment - didn't ask to rearrange his breaks to pray or break his fast, didn't ask for any place special, just found a corner of the break room to pray. Before this, he was the golden boy. After that, he could do no right and was hounded out of the job.

So yes, discrimination against arabs/immigrants/muslims does exist. Thankfully though, he hasn't let that color his opinions of all americans. There are crappy americans out there. I know I've run across my fair share who treat me as dirt because they precieve me as a foreigner. And there are crappy arabs I've run across as well.

Does this add anything to the topic? Probably not. It just bothers me when people don't think that discrimination exists or it's not that bad.

[doodlebugg 10]

hanginginthere -

I know you are distraught and things are all fuzzy right now for you. I do hope you feel better soon. I can't even imagine losing a baby. My heart bleeds for you, it really does.

BUT

What I read is that your experience with that mosque sucked. There are many mosques out there and many imams. Just like there are many Catholic churches out there and many priests. Please don't paint a whole religion based on one religious leader. If we did that no one would be Catholic. You said before that the imam is salafi, which is pretty extreme imho. I guarantee you if you lived here and went to the mosque that we go to that would never ever have happened. My mosque holds monthly dinners with other religious leaders in the community including priests, ministers, rabbis, etc. They are very welcoming and loving.

I agree your experience really sucked but painting an entire reglion/culture based on this isn't really fair.

[amal 4]

I have stayed fairly silent thru this topic but these couple quotes stuck out and I had to comment on them. I'm a muslim, therefore does that mean that I can't dress like one if I so choose? or does that make me "un-americanized" or "too ME"? I'm not trying to be snooty or nasty but I was bothered by what Hoomsfuturewife posted.

I would be more than happy to discuss Islam vs. ME with the aforementioned poster if they would be interested in learning the difference. I think I understood what they meant but what was said was far off base from their intent (I think/I hope). If I can help 1 person to better understand that Islam and the ME are not interchangeable, then my work will be well worth it. Hoomsfuturewife, please, if you have any questions regarding the ME or Islam, do not hesitate to send a PM and I will be more than happy to help.

If you want to wear an abaya and live like a ME muslim then you should stay in the ME.

Where in our laws does it state that no one is allowed to wear an abaya? Does the USA now have a dresscode? I agree.

Just coz u wear an abaya and live like a ME muslim doesn't mean that u can't live here It just means that you're following your countries traditions while living in America and being muslim. What is wrong with that?

I think it should be far harder for ?muslims? (maybe you meant radical muslims? or maybe you meant Middle Easterners?) to immigrate to the west as the majority refuse to assimilate and insult those that were generous enough to allow them the privilege of living in their country.

amal

[morocco4ever 63]

What happened to you Kat was wrong. I don't defend their actions in the least. Do I believe that they are all like that? No. Do I believe it is exclusive to Arabs? No.

There was a time that I had some ill conceived notions about Arab men based on a large group that I know here in the US. It was a bad enough impression that I almost didn't give my husband a chance because I assumed they were all like those men. Well I have had to eat crow. I met my husbands family, and I can not say enough good about them. They in no way resemble the men I know, nor the people that you have had to deal with lately. I just hope in time you will get to meet some of the truly good Arabs. They are out there.

((((Kat)))) The best wishes to you.

[Ban Hammer 13,133]

Did you travel to the mid east and suffer?

i did.

please explain how exactly you suffered.

had a lot of people wanting to kill me

[doodlebugg 10]

Did you travel to the mid east and suffer?

i did.

please explain how exactly you suffered.

had a lot of people wanting to kill me

Ok well that is pretty general.....were you carrying a gun, were you part of a military operation? Details please so we can understand more about your suffering.

[HLM 1]

Did you travel to the mid east and suffer?

i did.

please explain how exactly you suffered.

had a lot of people wanting to kill me

Awww Charles! Well glad u made it out alive

[Ban Hammer 13,133]

Did you travel to the mid east and suffer?

i did.

please explain how exactly you suffered.

had a lot of people wanting to kill me

Ok well that is pretty general.....were you carrying a gun, were you part of a military operation? Details please so we can understand more about your suffering.

the entire iraqi army wanted me and my traveling companions dead.

this was jan 91